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Does Jesus' teahings conflict with "God's?"

Gandhi>Bush

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I think that they certianly do.

Look at Deuteronomy, where the Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites are well basically slaughtered in an act that I and many others would classify as Genocide.

For instance:

Deuteronomy 7: 1-4

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you.

or Deuteronomy 20:10-18

When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.


These things, in my eyes do not exactly flow well with Jesus' pascifistic nature. If you would wish to debate that Jesus was not a pascifist, that is acceptable as well.

Matthew 5:38-48

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Have at it. This should be terribly interesting.
 

CanadianGuy

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That is very true I do not see how it works in our society though.
 

Provita

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hmmm... lol, i skipped that part in bible, i just read the Pentateuch and the New Testament :mrgreen: , anyways, which bible did you quote, sadly there are more than one, just askin
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Provita: That was all NIV.

CanadianGuy: Could you elaborate further. I don't know what you meant by your comment. I wasn't making a sociological comment. I was making a theological comment.
 

CanadianGuy

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Oh sorry. What I meant was what was your point how does this affect us today with laws a regulations and so on and so forth.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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CanadianGuy said:
Oh sorry. What I meant was what was your point how does this affect us today with laws a regulations and so on and so forth.
It doesn't. In another thread it was brought up that God dictated the hands of men to write the Bible. I suggested that God's "dictation" through the hands of men didn't go with Jesus' documented words, also dictated by the hands of men I suppose. Sooner or later I decided the discussion was out of place and created a thread in the Religion forum.

I didn't mean to suggest that this had any bearing on our society or it's laws and/or regulations.
 

laska

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I think that those nations that were in the land of Promise when the Israelites arrived had become so corrupt and hardened in their ways and the cultures had become such cess pools(child sacrafice,etc.) that future generations born into those societies would not have a chance to be virtuous, their agency to choose between good and evil would be severely hampered by the traditions of their fathers. When this is the case, the justice of God comes down in behalf of the souls yet unborn.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Do you think that that conflicts with Jesus' teachings? I know I do.
 

laska

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I really see no conflict. I guess if a terrorist was opening fire on a kindergarten, we should just let it happen. I do not think this is what Christ means. Mercy cannot rob justice or it is not merciful. We should love our enemies though, and turn the cheek when it comes to our own honor and so forth, but this does not mean no protection against the innocent. Just common sense.
 

CanadianGuy

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laska said:
I really see no conflict. I guess if a terrorist was opening fire on a kindergarten, we should just let it happen. I do not think this is what Christ means. Mercy cannot rob justice or it is not merciful. We should love our enemies though, and turn the cheek when it comes to our own honor and so forth, but this does not mean no protection against the innocent. Just common sense.
wow awesome statement :mrgreen:
 

Gandhi>Bush

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What do you think Jesus would do if he saw a terrorist unloading his AK47 on a kindergarden class? Do you think he pull out his glock and "put a cap in his ass?"
 

9TH

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Gandhi>Bush said:
What do you think Jesus would do if he saw a terrorist unloading his AK47 on a kindergarden class? Do you think he pull out his glock and "put a cap in his ass?"
He'd probably get himself nailed to another cross so that the terrorist, seeing Jesus' sacrifice, would repent, be forgiven for slaughtering the kinder, and get his ass into heaven. The children, being too young to have willfully accepted Christ as their saviour, would burn for being the unworthy heathens that they are. Sound about right?
 

Gandhi>Bush

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You know, that's not quite what I had in mind...
 

Tashah

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Does Jesus' teahings conflict with "God's?"

Ghandi>Bush said:
I think that they certianly do.

For instance:
Deuteronomy 7: 1-4

or Deuteronomy 20:10-18
The Book of Deuteronomy is the fifth book of the Torah (Hebrew=Instruction) - Pentateuch (Greek=Five Volumes). The compendium of these five books is considered the body of the Old Testament.

Conservative theologians who subscribe to the principle of *inerrency* insist that Moses is the sole author of the Torah (and thus Deuteronomy). In this scenario, Moses is believed to have written the books after the Israelite's exodus from Egypt, but before they entered Canaan. This would date the writing to the 40 year period when the Israelites were wandering through the desert (circa 1450 BCE).

Liberal theologians attribute Torah authorship to four separate individuals over a period of centuries. The Book of Deuteronomy is credited to *author D*.

From an individual and Jewish perspective, I have always been uncomfortable with many Torah passages in which YHWH advocates extreme violence and mayhem. I have the exact same problem with numerous passages contained in the Qu'ran and selected scripture from the Christian New Testament.

I do realize that one should take into account the historical time-frame and sociatal circumstances that frame holy writ. Nevertheless, I cannot in good conscience totally abide in any particular theology that sanctions violence or promotes violence as a legitimate means to an end.

For these reasons (and others), I have found it necessary to compose my own personal spirituality in lieu of embracing the theologies of organized and mainstream religion.


 

Gandhi>Bush

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Each man should work out his own salvation. --Buddha

I completely agree Tashah.
 

leejosepho

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Matthew 5:38-48

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
In the above, there is no conflict between what the Father and the Son have said and/or done -- confusion, when it exists, is only between our ears!

What we have in the above is an excellent argument against any form of Zionism -- it is not the duty of man to straighten all things out.
 

vergiss

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leejosepho said:
In the above, there is no conflict between what the Father and the Son have said and/or done -- confusion, when it exists, is only between our ears!

What we have in the above is an excellent argument against any form of Zionism -- it is not the duty of man to straighten all things out.
If you want to look at it like that, then it's an argument against any form of gaol, as well. :lol:

Don't apply your dogma to my religion. Thanks.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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leejosepho said:
In the above, there is no conflict between what the Father and the Son have said and/or done -- confusion, when it exists, is only between our ears!

What we have in the above is an excellent argument against any form of Zionism -- it is not the duty of man to straighten all things out.
I don't quite follow what you're trying to say.
 

leejosepho

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leejosepho said:
... there is no conflict between what the Father and the Son have said and/or done ...

What we have in [Matthew 5:38-48] is an excellent argument against any form of Zionism -- it is not the duty of man to straighten all things out.
vergiss said:
If you want to look at it like that, then it's an argument against any form of gaol, as well. :lol:

Don't apply your dogma to my religion. Thanks.
No, I did not say it was not the duty of man to carry out established sentences for criminals. And, I do not even know what is your religion.

Gandhi>Bush said:
I don't quite follow what you're trying to say.
Within this type of perspective as from from laska ...

laska said:
I think that those nations that were in the land of Promise when the Israelites arrived had become so corrupt and hardened in their ways and the cultures had become such cesspools (child sacrifice, etc.) that future generations born into those societies would not have a chance to be virtuous, their agency to choose between good and evil would be severely hampered by the traditions of their fathers. When this is the case, the justice of God comes down in behalf of the souls yet unborn.
... I am simply saying those kinds of decisions are not man's to make. You should definitely hold me accountable for my behaviour if I become obnoxious, but it is "not the duty of man" to rid this world of all obnoxious people:

Tashah said:
I cannot in good conscience totally abide in any particular theology that sanctions violence or promotes violence as a legitimate means to an end.
CanadianGuy said:
Well can I ad they can't [conflict -] the tachings of jesus are god's.
laska said:
... We should love our enemies ... and turn the cheek when it comes to our own honor and so forth, but this does not mean no protection [for] the innocent. Just common sense.
Absolutely.

Gandhi>Bush said:
What do you think Jesus would do if he saw a terrorist unloading his AK47 on a kindergarden class? Do you think he pull out his glock and "put a cap in his ass?"
No, it would more likely be a head shot.

9TH said:
The children, being too young to have willfully accepted Christ as their saviour, would burn for being the unworthy heathens that they are. Sound about right?
No.

Gandhi>Bush said:
Each man should work out his own salvation. --Buddha
"... with fear and trembling, for it is Elohim who is working in you both to desire and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13).
 

Gandhi>Bush

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leejosepho said:
No, it would more likely be a head shot.
Do you truly believe that? Jesus would shoot a man in the head? No self-sacrifice there, just put a bullet in his head and call it a day?

"... with fear and trembling, for it is Elohim who is working in you both to desire and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13).
I don't see the relevance to what Buddha said.
 

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Do you truly believe that? Jesus would shoot a man in the head? No self-sacrifice there, just put a bullet in his head and call it a day?
No, not literally, but I said that in contrast to the idea that The Messiah might only go jump upon another stake to try to get the man's attention.

Hypotheticals can easily lead to trouble ... yet I can easily believe He *might* have remained silent toward Peter about his sword this time ... or at least that He would have sent/expected somebody to call the police and some ambulances.

Gandhi>Bush said:
I don't see the relevance to what Buddha said.
Perspective. Working out one's own salvation cannot be done according to one's own terms.
 

vergiss

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leejosepho said:
No, I did not say it was not the duty of man to carry out established sentences for criminals. And, I do not even know what is your religion.
I know you didn't - I am. If you can find crazy interpretations, so can I.

Also, I don't think it's that difficult to figure out.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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leejosepho said:
No, not literally, but I said that in contrast to the idea that The Messiah might only go jump upon another stake to try to get the man's attention.

Hypotheticals can easily lead to trouble ... yet I can easily believe He *might* have remained silent toward Peter about his sword this time ... or at least that He would have sent/expected somebody to call the police and some ambulances.
Christ was a pascifist. I'm sorry I just don't see him sicking peter on anyone for any reason.
 
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