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Does God Need You?

Predestined by whom?

All was predetermined.. by the causal chain when the universe formed. It's all a game of candyland, where the deck is shuffled, and you are just going through set motions determined by the cards. If there is a whom or not is not relevant. You are just going through predetermined motions due to cause and effect.
 
All was predetermined.. by the causal chain when the universe formed. It's all a game of candyland, where the deck is shuffled, and you are just going through set motions determined by the cards. If there is a whom or not is not relevant. You are just going through predetermined motions due to cause and effect.
Prove it.
 
God created mankind for the purpose of possibly seeing himself in his creation. Think of it as humanity becoming a mirror of sorts.

"God created man in his image"

More precisely,

Man created god in his image.
 
You see, I don't see creationism and evolution as mutually exclusive.

....yeah that really had nothing to do with anything. But cool beans.
 
Gods require worshipers, without them they are no gods.

How did you come to that conclusion?


Even your god was unable to destroy all of man since man's creation, yes?

Not, unable.

He'd decided, not to.




Not only that, but it's demonstrated that humanity united has the power to defeat gods.
That's the whole point of the Tower of Babble and why, while your god couldn't destroy mankind completely, he could pit us against ourselves so we waste our talent and don't realize our true capabilities. It's the best it could do to secure its seat as "god". He fears his own creations because he cannot destroy us and he knows that if we are to overcome our differences, the whole of heaven and earth are open to mankind.


I don't know what Bible you've been studying - if you'd studied it at all - but this explains the incident at Babel.


Question: "What happened at the Tower of Babel?"

Answer: The Tower of Babel is described in Genesis 11:1-9.

After the Flood, God commanded humanity to "increase in number and fill the earth" (Genesis 9:1).
Humanity decided to do the exact opposite, “Then they said, ‘Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth’” (Genesis 11:4).
Humanity decided to build a great city and all congregate there. They decided to build a gigantic tower as a symbol of their power, to make a name for themselves (Genesis 11:4). This tower is remembered as the Tower of Babel.

In response, God confused the languages of humanity so that they could no longer communicate with each other (Genesis 11:7). The result was that people congregated with other people who spoke the same language, and then went together and settled in other parts of the world (Genesis 11:8-9).

God confused the languages at the Tower of Babel to enforce His command for humanity to spread throughout the entire world.



Read more: What happened at the Tower of Babel?


God's will, will always prevail. :)
 
It's a question of motivation. Ignorant, weak, mortal beings such as ourselves need things. There's no such compulsion with a being that's beyond those shortcomings.

Think of the annual birthday concern, "what do you buy the guy with everything?" and extrapolate it to the scale of an omnipotent/omniscient being who by design has no hunger, no curiosity, no fear -- all the basic driving forces of humanity. There's no drive for an omniscient/omnipotent being: no riddles to solve, no planning to be done, no chores to do. To our human minds, it'd seem the most tedious existence conceivable.

That's the point, isn't it? A powerful being can do anything He want - He doesn't have to have a reason, He can do anything just because He can!

Furthermore, He doesn't have to answer to anyone. He doesn't have to explain his actions, or His decisions....even if that action/decision involves wiping out mankind.


Our human minds can only see the tediousness in His existence (without any motivations).....but most likely - with our limited capacity for understanding -
we aren't seeing the whole picture!
 
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How did you come to that conclusion?

The Bible


Not, unable.

He'd decided, not to.

Hmmm, is that so? He couldn't even destroy Adam and start over after he disobeyed. Why" Cause he was necessary. Otherwise, one could start over. He couldn't drown everyone either, he had to leave some humans alive. He even had to let Lot live as well, despite him offering his daughters to be raped by a gang of villagers. Not once could he ever completely destroy humanity.

I don't know what Bible you've been studying - if you'd studied it at all - but this explains the incident at Babel.

Yes, I know. I went to Catholic School, we read the bible often.



4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built.

6 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.

7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city.
9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.
—Genesis 11:4–9[1]

So what does god say? He doesn't say that he's mad because they didn't procreate enough, he says

“Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them."

Humans have one language, and with it they began to build this city of their dreams. Nothing humans want to do is out of reach.

That's why he confused the languages and scattered men, because united Humanity can do anything. Ultimately, your god fears mankind, but is wholly dependent upon us. He can never destroy us in full, but has to make it so we cannot work together because if we ever do, we can do anything.
 
If science says it cannot prove the non-existence of God, where is your proof that God is merely a delusion?

Science can and has disproved your god easily. It can't disprove the concept of god, but it can disprove individual gods with ease. We climbed Mt Olympus and no one was there. We discovered evolution and a four billion years old world and disproved the god in the bible. We don't cut out people's hearts and the Aztec sun god hasn't ended the world. We've forgotten gods from cultures long gone. I'm gonna bet their gods weren't real, either.

The only thing we can't disprove is something that doesn't affect us in any way. If you claim that a god interacts with us, there would be evidence. There would be uncontroversial, objective, obvious evidence. There isn't. There's a whole lot of subjective blather.
 
The Bible

Hmmm, is that so? He couldn't even destroy Adam and start over after he disobeyed. Why" Cause he was necessary. Otherwise, one could start over. He couldn't drown everyone either, he had to leave some humans alive. He even had to let Lot live as well, despite him offering his daughters to be raped by a gang of villagers. Not once could he ever completely destroy humanity.



Yes, I know. I went to Catholic School, we read the bible often.

Did you study it?

Reading it is one thing. But if you're going to use verses from the Bible as your arguments in debates or serious discussions, then you should have some deeper understanding of it. That's why even us Christians study it!




4 And they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, and a tower whose top is in the heavens; let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built.

6 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.

7 Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city.
9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.
—Genesis 11:4–9[1]


So what does god say? He doesn't say that he's mad because they didn't procreate enough, he says

“Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them."

Humans have one language, and with it they began to build this city of their dreams. Nothing humans want to do is out of reach.

That's why he confused the languages and scattered men, because united Humanity can do anything. Ultimately, your god fears mankind, but is wholly dependent upon us. He can never destroy us in full, but has to make it so we cannot work together because if we ever do, we can do anything.

:roll:


They were united before they got scattered, weren't they? So what happened?
The fact that they got scattered is evidence enough that you're wrong in your assumption! He can do anything with mankind.
Just because He hasn't wiped out mankind is not reason to say He cannot.
I find your reasoning quite juvenile. Sorry.


anyway, whatever.
 
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Of course



I know, right? You can't even comment. No argument left to you. The bible clearly shows god's dependence upon Man.

I'd edited.
 
They were united before they got scattered, weren't they? So what happened?
The fact that they got scattered is evidence enough that you're wrong in your assumption! He can do anything with mankind.
Just because He hasn't wiped out mankind is not reason to say He cannot.
I find your reasoning quite juvenile. Sorry.


anyway, whatever.

They were, and left to their own, they decided to build a city and a tower to the heavens. They would succeed too, if left to their own, but god didn't want man to succeed at this. He didn't want humans being able to whatever they set their minds to. The fact that he merely scattered mankind is evidence that my theory is correct. He couldn't destroy man, he couldn't reset man, he couldn't be without man. He can not do anything with mankind, he can do quite a bit, but he cannot completely destroy mankind.

And because he has never destroyed us all and started over, you cannot say that he has the power to. You cannot discount the possibility that he cannot.

You may find my reasoning "juvenile", but that's only because you cannot point to scripture to combat my point, so you have to say something to dismiss it. This is how you dismiss it. The bible supports what I say.
 
If gods want to "exist", they need mankind. Heck, even the Christian god couldn't completely destroy mankind.

The problem with God is noone has any clue whether one exists or not. If a God does exist certainly noone would know what is needed for him/her to exist. If there is a God there is no religion is going to have all the answers as to what a God could or couldn't do. But I think it is safe to assume that if God can create the universe, he could certainly destroy mankind.
 
They were, and left to their own, they decided to build a city and a tower to the heavens. They would succeed too, if left to their own, but god didn't want man to succeed at this. He didn't want humans being able to whatever they set their minds to. The fact that he merely scattered mankind is evidence that my theory is correct. He couldn't destroy man, he couldn't reset man, he couldn't be without man. He can not do anything with mankind, he can do quite a bit, but he cannot completely destroy mankind.

And because he has never destroyed us all and started over, you cannot say that he has the power to. You cannot discount the possibility that he cannot.

You may find my reasoning "juvenile", but that's only because you cannot point to scripture to combat my point, so you have to say something to dismiss it. This is how you dismiss it. The bible supports what I say.

I think this argument only works if you think Christianity has 100% of the answers.
 
That's the point, isn't it? A powerful being can do anything He want - He doesn't have to have a reason, He can do anything just because He can!

Furthermore, He doesn't have to answer to anyone. He doesn't have to explain his actions, or His decisions....even if that action/decision involves wiping out mankind.


Our human minds can only see the tediousness in His existence (without any motivations).....but most likely - with our limited capacity for understanding -
we aren't seeing the whole picture!
An being with unlimited power doesn't have any reason to do anything. Things get done because of desire. A limitless being is by definition desireless.
 
Prove it.

It's easy. Do a simple experiment. Use your free will to be sexually attracted to George Zimmerman.

If you can't, then there is no free will.
 
But I think it is safe to assume that if God can create the universe, he could certainly destroy mankind.

That would suppose a god created the universe and that his acts of creation are reversible, yeah? What if in the creation of the universe, certain processes made it so that it could not be undone? And if in the creation of humans, god found himself unable to completely destroy them? Not every process is time-reversible.
 
It's easy. Do a simple experiment. Use your free will to be sexually attracted to George Zimmerman.

If you can't, then there is no free will.

Big difference between free will and desire.
 
That would suppose a god created the universe and that his acts of creation are reversible, yeah? What if in the creation of the universe, certain processes made it so that it could not be undone? And if in the creation of humans, god found himself unable to completely destroy them? Not every process is time-reversible.

I cannot come up with anything to refute any of those possibilities. Good show.
 
Does God need me? Well no not really.


But I like to think He finds me useful now and then. :D
 
Big difference between free will and desire.

Yes.. but can you show you can control desire? Let's see you show that you are not doing what is predetermined. Chemistry is predetermined, and your brain is nothing but chemistry.


However, from wiki

The standard argument against free will, according to philosopher J. J. C. Smart focuses on the implications of determinism for 'free will'.[27] However, he suggests free will is denied whether determinism is true or not. On one hand, if determinism is true, all our actions are predicted and we are assumed not to be free; on the other hand, if determinism is false, our actions are presumed to be random and as such we do not seem free because we had no part in controlling what happened.

In his book, The Moral Landscape, author and neuroscientist Sam Harris also argues against free will. He offers one thought experiment where a mad scientist represents determinism. In Harris' example, the mad scientist uses a machine to control all the desires, and thus all the behavior, of a particular human. Harris believes that it is no longer as tempting, in this case, to say the victim has "free will". Harris says nothing changes if the machine controls desires at random - the victim still seems to lack free will. Harris then argues that we are also the victims of such unpredictable desires (but due to the unconscious machinations of our brain, rather than those of a mad scientist). Based on this introspection, he writes "This discloses the real mystery of free will: if our experience is compatible with its utter absence, how can we say that we see any evidence for it in the first place?"[28] adding that "Whether they are predictable or not, we do not cause our causes."[29] That is, he believes there is compelling evidence of absence of free will. Harris' viewpoint implicitly assumes a philosophy of materialism, that is, that mental events are reducible to neurological occurrences[citation needed].
 
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