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Do you think its time to Cut and Run in Iraq?

Do you think its time to Cut and Run in Iraq?

  • Yes we have lost to many good men

    Votes: 5 33.3%
  • No we owe it to the men who have died to finish the job.

    Votes: 10 66.7%

  • Total voters
    15

SKILMATIC

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Well the vote speaks for itself. And I have already spoke countless times on why we should stay the course. If we dont, every man woman and child who losed there lives on this campaign is going to be for nothing if we dont complete this task.

GOD BLESS AMERICA AND OUR SERVICE MEN AND WOMEN.
 

Arch Enemy

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What is this task we need to complete? We're fighting against an enemy that can't be beaten, we're fighting a war which cannot be won by warfare! They've already died in vain, they signed up for the Army to DEFEND AMERICA! Saddam wasn't threatening America, instead he was threatening Iran.. how Ironic!
 

cnredd

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Arch Enemy said:
What is this task we need to complete? We're fighting against an enemy that can't be beaten, we're fighting a war which cannot be won by warfare! They've already died in vain, they signed up for the Army to DEFEND AMERICA! Saddam wasn't threatening America, instead he was threatening Iran.. how Ironic!
I don't remember any of that rant being part of the poll, but have at it...

Nobody signs a paper that says you will JUST defend America...You sign a paper that says you will do what the big cheese tells you to....Something called the "Constitution" gives him(along with Congress) the authority to make those decisions.

The task we need to complete is to get the local security force up to speed so they will be able to defend themselves and won't need us to hang around...As far as I'm concerned, that is the only reason to stay...Once that is accomplished, grab a plane and take off....
 

Billo_Really

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Originally posted by cnredd:
The task we need to complete is to get the local security force up to speed so they will be able to defend themselves and won't need us to hang around...As far as I'm concerned, that is the only reason to stay...Once that is accomplished, grab a plane and take off....
Earth to cnredd, they don't want us around!
 

Navy Pride

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Arch Enemy said:
What is this task we need to complete? We're fighting against an enemy that can't be beaten, we're fighting a war which cannot be won by warfare! They've already died in vain, they signed up for the Army to DEFEND AMERICA! Saddam wasn't threatening America, instead he was threatening Iran.. how Ironic!
The task we need to complete is to stay in Iraq until the Iraqi forces can handle their own security..........They signed up to also obey the orders of the CIC......
 

Simon W. Moon

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Yes we have lost to many good men
No we owe it to the men who have died to finish the job.

I do think that we have lost too many good men for what we're getting out of the deal.
And I don't think that staying longer will benefit the dead. I don't think they will get anything out of it if we stay or go. They're pretty much beyond our reach at this point.

However, I don't think that an immediate withdrawal of all our military forces is in the best interests of the United States.
I do think we (the country as a whole esp the USG) need to be more forthright about what is realistically achievable in Iraq. We won't have created a liberal democarcy in the ME. At best we will have created another Islamic republic. Islamic republics in a row from India to Syria.
We also need to be more forthright about what's going on in Iraq. Basically, we've handed Iraq over to Iran. The two largest Iraqi political parties have they're bread buttered on the Iranian side and they know it.

We do need to draw down our expectations and limit our losses. However, I don't think withdrawing everyone immediately will accomplish that end.

But, I didn't see that button.
 

Navy Pride

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At this point I don't think we know what their government will look like once it is up and running......One thing we know pretty much for sure is there will be no more mass graves or people being put into shredding machine alive.....
 

Simon W. Moon

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Navy Pride said:
One thing we know pretty much for sure is there will be no more mass graves...
If "we [don't] know what their government will look like once it is up and running," how can we be sure?

Navy Pride said:
... people being put into shredding machine alive.....
fyi, this is an urban legend. The missionary fella who reported this doesn't exist.
 

Binary_Digit

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Billo_Really said:
Earth to cnredd, they don't want us around!
Yes they do. About half of all Iraqis appreciate what we're doing. The other half want Hussein back because the security situation was safer under him. "My heart wants you to go but my brain knows you should stay" is the sentiment I hear all the time from soldiers who are actually there. The Iraqis aren't even the ones attacking U.S. troops, what makes you think they don't want us there?

It doesn't matter what we think about entering the war. We're there, we've uprooted the established government, and we simply cannot leave their country in that state. If we left now, there would be a power vacuum that people like al-Zarqawi and scum like him feed on. He or someone like him would be the next Sadaam Hussein (or worse) and we would eventually be facing him down the road. As much as I can't stand that piece of **** Bush, this is one point where he's 100% correct. It would be our biggest mistake yet to leave Iraq before they are ready to handle their own security.
 

Calm2Chaos

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Arch Enemy said:
What is this task we need to complete? We're fighting against an enemy that can't be beaten, we're fighting a war which cannot be won by warfare! They've already died in vain, they signed up for the Army to DEFEND AMERICA! Saddam wasn't threatening America, instead he was threatening Iran.. how Ironic!
They signed up for the millitary to do what they were told to when they were told where they were told. They didn't die in vain unless we pull out now. Thats the best way in the world to eliminate everything these men have died for.
And if you can't see that the aid, training and safe haven provided by saddam within the borders of iraq were a threat. Then I think we need to go get your glasses changed.
People like you are exactly what the terrorist live for. You give them the desireto move on. They see that there tactics are turning you, so they must go on.
 

Navy Pride

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Simon W. Moon said:
If "we [don't] know what their government will look like once it is up and running," how can we be sure?

fyi, this is an urban legend. The missionary fella who reported this doesn't exist.

Well it won't be headed by Saddam and his sons so that is a step in the right direction.....

I don't know anything about a missionary but I have heard this reported by Iraqiis living in country............
 

Binary_Digit

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Surenderer said:
What do the American People want?


peace
Right. The argument is over how to achieve peace. Only two simple rules in my opinion.

1.) Don't attack another country without a DAMN good reason.
2.) If you do, don't leave a power vacuum for splinter groups to take over.

We already screwed up #1, but thankfully Bush understands the importance of #2.
 

Navy Pride

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Binary_Digit said:
Yes they do. About half of all Iraqis appreciate what we're doing. The other half want Hussein back because the security situation was safer under him. "My heart wants you to go but my brain knows you should stay" is the sentiment I hear all the time from soldiers who are actually there. The Iraqis aren't even the ones attacking U.S. troops, what makes you think they don't want us there?

It doesn't matter what we think about entering the war. We're there, we've uprooted the established government, and we simply cannot leave their country in that state. If we left now, there would be a power vacuum that people like al-Zarqawi and scum like him feed on. He or someone like him would be the next Sadaam Hussein (or worse) and we would eventually be facing him down the road. As much as I can't stand that piece of **** Bush, this is one point where he's 100% correct. It would be our biggest mistake yet to leave Iraq before they are ready to handle their own security.
Bottom line is the people voted to elect a government and that government wants us to stay until security there is stable.......
 

Binary_Digit

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Yea true. I guess it would be good to get in the habit of considering the new Iraq government and what it wants. :2razz:
 

freethought6t9

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Binary_Digit said:
Right. The argument is over how to achieve peace. Only two simple rules in my opinion.

1.) Don't attack another country without a DAMN good reason.
2.) If you do, don't leave a power vacuum for splinter groups to take over.

We already screwed up #1, but thankfully Bush understands the importance of #2.
Well, this pretty much sums up the situation in my uninformed hackish opinion. I can't vote in the poll because my answer would be no, it would be unfair to Iraqis to plunge their nation into chaos and leave them to fight a brutal civil war and possible Iranian invasion. While I do of course think any deaths of troops is awful, they have already died in vain, sure Iraqis may one day have a functioning democracy, but this kind of nation building does any soldier a disservice, sending them to deaths of no benefit to the population they wish to serve. In the 2000 campaign Bush himself railed against th kind of nation building which Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan and on and on and on were all very fond of.
 

Simon W. Moon

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Just FYI

Navy Pride said:
I don't know anything about a missionary but I have heard this reported by Iraqiis living in country............


Lucky Break for Jordan

By Arnaud de Borchgrave
UPI Editor at Large
Published 3/21/2003 2:46 PM

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Verdana,sans-serif]Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."
[/FONT]​
I [the author, not me] contacted the Assyrian Church of the East, asking for confirmation. The e-mail I sent to Bishop Soro is below, I received this reply from the Bishop:
From: ABSoro@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:17:47 EST
Subject: Re: Can you confirm this story?
Johnny:
The only thing that I can confirm is that Kenneth Joseph, IS NOT a pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East nor has he been associated with the Assyrian Church in any shape or form.
Bishop Soro
Secretary General of Interchurch Relations
Assyrian Church of the East

The missing people-shredder

The horror of one of Saddam's execution methods made a powerful pro-war rallying cry - but the evidence suggests it never existed

Brendan O'Neill
Wednesday February 25, 2004
The Guardian

This is all that Indict had to go on - uncorroborated and quite amazing claims made by a single person from northern Iraq. When I suggest that this does not constitute proof of the existence of a human shredder, Clwyd responds: "Who are you to say that chap is a liar?" Yet to call for witness statements to be corroborated before being turned into the subject of national newspaper articles is to follow good practice in the collection of evidence, particularly evidence with which Indict hopes to "seek indictments by national prosecutors" against former Ba'athists.

An Iraqi who worked as a doctor in the hospital attached to Abu Ghraib prison tells me there was no shredding machine in the prison. The Iraqi, who wishes to remain anonymous, describes the prison as "horrific". Part of his job was to attend to those who had been executed. Did he ever attend to, or hear of, prisoners who had been shredded? "No." Did any of the other doctors at Abu Ghraib speak of a shredding machine used to execute prisoners? "No, never. As far as I know [hanging] was the only form of execution used there."

Other groups have no recorded accounts of a human shredder. An Amnesty International spokesman tells me that his inquiries into the shredder "drew a blank". Widney Brown, the deputy programme director of Human Rights Watch, says: "We have not heard of that particular form of execution or torture."
 

Navy Pride

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Re: Just FYI

Simon W. Moon said:
Lucky Break for Jordan

By Arnaud de Borchgrave
UPI Editor at Large
Published 3/21/2003 2:46 PM

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Verdana,sans-serif]Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."
[/FONT]​
I [the author, not me] contacted the Assyrian Church of the East, asking for confirmation. The e-mail I sent to Bishop Soro is below, I received this reply from the Bishop:
From: ABSoro@aol.com
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 08:17:47 EST
Subject: Re: Can you confirm this story?
Johnny:
The only thing that I can confirm is that Kenneth Joseph, IS NOT a pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East nor has he been associated with the Assyrian Church in any shape or form.
Bishop Soro
Secretary General of Interchurch Relations
Assyrian Church of the East

The missing people-shredder

The horror of one of Saddam's execution methods made a powerful pro-war rallying cry - but the evidence suggests it never existed

Brendan O'Neill
Wednesday February 25, 2004
The Guardian

This is all that Indict had to go on - uncorroborated and quite amazing claims made by a single person from northern Iraq. When I suggest that this does not constitute proof of the existence of a human shredder, Clwyd responds: "Who are you to say that chap is a liar?" Yet to call for witness statements to be corroborated before being turned into the subject of national newspaper articles is to follow good practice in the collection of evidence, particularly evidence with which Indict hopes to "seek indictments by national prosecutors" against former Ba'athists.

An Iraqi who worked as a doctor in the hospital attached to Abu Ghraib prison tells me there was no shredding machine in the prison. The Iraqi, who wishes to remain anonymous, describes the prison as "horrific". Part of his job was to attend to those who had been executed. Did he ever attend to, or hear of, prisoners who had been shredded? "No." Did any of the other doctors at Abu Ghraib speak of a shredding machine used to execute prisoners? "No, never. As far as I know [hanging] was the only form of execution used there."

Other groups have no recorded accounts of a human shredder. An Amnesty International spokesman tells me that his inquiries into the shredder "drew a blank". Widney Brown, the deputy programme director of Human Rights Watch, says: "We have not heard of that particular form of execution or torture."

I guess its depends on who you talk to..........
 
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