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Do you think capitalism in America will last ?

Do you think capitalism in America will last ?


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NoobieDoobieDo

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Do you think capitalism in America will last ?


Does capitalism have the long term answers America needs ?
 

point

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NoobieDoobieDo said:
Do you think capitalism in America will last ?


Does capitalism have the long term answers America needs ?
No, I don't think so.

Capitalism is based on exploitation.

Capitalism is a system in which a little minority rules over the majority. The majority, this is the working class. The minority, this are the rich people, the employers, the shareholders - those who make profits by hiring workers.

The capitalists are the ones who control the media. With the help of the media, they can brainwash the people and influence them for their own goals.

For example, they tell the people that it is necessary to invade Afghanistan or Iraq. They tell that is necessary in order to spread "democracy" or "human rights". But in fact, it's only because of their greed for money and profits.

The capitalists don't risk their own lives at the wars which they strive for. The men and women of the working class are the ones who die at war - not for their own interests but for the interests of that minority.

The capitalist system pretends to be a "democracy" in which the people "have a choice". But they don't have a choice. Whether the "liberals" or the "conservatives" win the election, wheter the ones or the others - finally, it makes no difference for the working class because none of those parties represents the majority of the people, the interests of the working class, but only the interests of the capitalists.
 
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ncallaway

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I think as the devide between the rich and the poor gets larger and larger something will have to change. I think capitalism is a fairly good system, but needs more regulation than we have. The pay split between a CEO and the factory worker (while it should exist) is getting way too large, and I don't think people will stand for it forever.

It may be a long time before we see changes, or it may happen soon. But I think it has to change. Society is constantly changing and reforming itself, and something new will come along.
 

teacher

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We need some form of wage control. And term limits. Perhaps in the form of profit sharing. If a company has a good year, all the employees should get a cut. Not just the CEO and shareholders. It would also make some of the lower level folks more loyal and better workers if they knew they had a vested interest. I don't see either party addressing that one. Money talks. Lobbyists hand it out. Politicians kowtow. Founding fathers didn't think of that one.
 

Mikkel

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point said:
No, I don't think so.

Capitalism is based on exploitation.

Capitalism is a system in which a little minority rules over the majority. The majority, this is the working class. The minority, this are the rich people, the employers, the shareholders - those who make profits by hiring workers.

The capitalists are the ones who control the media. With the help of the media, they can brainwash the people and influence them for their own goals.

For example, they tell the people that it is necessary to invade Afghanistan or Iraq. They tell that is necessary in order to spread "democracy" or "human rights". But in fact, it's only because of their greed for money and profits.

The capitalists don't risk their own lives at the wars which they strive for. The men and women of the working class are the ones who die at war - not for their own interests but for the interests of that minority.

The capitalist system pretends to be a "democracy" in which the people "have a choice". But they don't have a choice. Whether the "liberals" or the "conservatives" win the election, wheter the ones or the others - finally, it makes no difference for the working class because none of those parties represents the majority of the people, the interests of the working class, but only the interests of the capitalists.
I agree with almost everything you said, but you missed the key element of the poll question. It doesn't ask, 'do you think capitalism should last in america', it asks will it last? I think that, regardless of capitalism's flaws, the taintedness of the cold war and the so called 'spirit' of our constitution will keep people in a pro-capitalist mindset. I think we'll see the downfall of America before we see the downfall of capitalism (or it might come hand in hand...)
 

point

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Mikkel said:
I agree with almost everything you said, but you missed the key element of the poll question. It doesn't ask, 'do you think capitalism should last in america', it asks will it last?
Yes, you are right. My post was a general description of capitalism. -

One question is if people can liberate themselves from the influence of the mass media and the official propaganda.

The capitalists have always needed an external "enemy" or threat in order to divert the people's attention from the internal problems.

In the cold war, the UDSSR and the communists were the external threat.

Nowadays, this are the "muslim terrorists". And the propaganda seems to work again...



I think that, regardless of capitalism's flaws, the taintedness of the cold war and the so called 'spirit' of our constitution will keep people in a pro-capitalist mindset. I think we'll see the downfall of America before we see the downfall of capitalism (or it might come hand in hand...)
 

teacher

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point said:
teacher said:
Somehow - yes.

teacher: "Get back to work teacher".
teacher: "But teacher, I want to pick on Mr. Brooks".
teacher: "Mr. Brooks don't pay the bills, now get back to work teacher".
teacher: (Mumbling) "Slavedriving teacher".
teacher: "I gotta cut that teacher some slack, but he's such a good worker. Oh Mr. Brooo-ooooks".
 

debate_junkie

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teacher said:
teacher: "Get back to work teacher".
teacher: "But teacher, I want to pick on Mr. Brooks".
teacher: "Mr. Brooks don't pay the bills, now get back to work teacher".
teacher: (Mumbling) "Slavedriving teacher".
teacher: "I gotta cut that teacher some slack, but he's such a good worker. Oh Mr. Brooo-ooooks".
See's men in white coats in teach's immediate future with posts like that :lol:
 

Fantasea

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ncallaway said:
I think as the devide between the rich and the poor gets larger and larger something will have to change. I think capitalism is a fairly good system, but needs more regulation than we have. The pay split between a CEO and the factory worker (while it should exist) is getting way too large, and I don't think people will stand for it forever.

It may be a long time before we see changes, or it may happen soon. But I think it has to change. Society is constantly changing and reforming itself, and something new will come along.
The divide between rich and poor in the US will continue to grow wider as those with ambition use their wits and wisdom capitalize on the available educational opportunities to improve their circumstances and the suckers who allow themselves to be cast as victims of the system will stay right where they are, refusing to become educated and rendering themselves incapable of anything but menial jobs.

As US factories continue disappear, so will the factory jobs. Tech is getting higher all the time. Those who can't measure up will keep the fast food chains staffed.

The argument over earning disparity is ridiculous. Brainpower has always outranked manual labor and is worth every penny. If you don't have the right people at the top, there are no jobs at all at the bottom.
 

Youve Got To Be Kidding!

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Yes it will last. I believe that Post Capitalism = Pre Communism. That is from a one Mussolini. He said it a bit better than that though. I agree with his nazi ass.

So my answer is it will unless the house recovers (house, congress and executive branches) I do not see that happening however. So unless Americans stand up for imagined freedoms and STOP THEM from what they are doing (I.M.O. at all costs) then yes it will last.

Just think you can bring up good little conservative republicans and they might not have to go to a work camp or maybee they will. LONG LIVE THE NEOCONS!!!
 

ncallaway

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Fantasea said:
The divide between rich and poor in the US will continue to grow wider as those with ambition use their wits and wisdom capitalize on the available educational opportunities to improve their circumstances and the suckers who allow themselves to be cast as victims of the system will stay right where they are, refusing to become educated and rendering themselves incapable of anything but menial jobs.

As US factories continue disappear, so will the factory jobs. Tech is getting higher all the time. Those who can't measure up will keep the fast food chains staffed.

The argument over earning disparity is ridiculous. Brainpower has always outranked manual labor and is worth every penny. If you don't have the right people at the top, there are no jobs at all at the bottom.
I'm not saying brainpower shouldn't outrank manual labor, but I think with the wages as far apart as they are (between, say, a CEO, and a machinist), the system can't last forever. Fast food chains can only become so prevalent, and thus only have so many jobs, before they stop making money.

I'm not saying it will happen soon, and I'm not saying it's going to be a bloody revolution. But capitalism, while a good system, simply can't last forever. That's part of how society works. It will continue to change and evolve with time. It has done so since the beginning, and it will continue to do so.

If you disagree, and think we have reached the highest step on the ladder in the evolution of economics, I think we're (as two people in debate) stuck. I simply don't think we're (as society) there yet (nor will we ever be, in my opinion).

I do, however, think capitalism will last for quite some time.
 

Fantasea

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ncallaway said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fantasea
The divide between rich and poor in the US will continue to grow wider as those with ambition use their wits and wisdom capitalize on the available educational opportunities to improve their circumstances and the suckers who allow themselves to be cast as victims of the system will stay right where they are, refusing to become educated and rendering themselves incapable of anything but menial jobs.

As US factories continue disappear, so will the factory jobs. Tech is getting higher all the time. Those who can't measure up will keep the fast food chains staffed.

The argument over earning disparity is ridiculous. Brainpower has always outranked manual labor and is worth every penny. If you don't have the right people at the top, there are no jobs at all at the bottom.
I'm not saying brainpower shouldn't outrank manual labor, but I think with the wages as far apart as they are (between, say, a CEO, and a machinist), the system can't last forever. Fast food chains can only become so prevalent, and thus only have so many jobs, before they stop making money.

I'm not saying it will happen soon, and I'm not saying it's going to be a bloody revolution. But capitalism, while a good system, simply can't last forever. That's part of how society works. It will continue to change and evolve with time. It has done so since the beginning, and it will continue to do so.
I do not wish to come across as flippant, however, the argument you make is about the same as asking the question, "How high is up?"

Persons set limits based upon what they think is going to happen. Then they are surprise to find that the limit they set, which they thought was high, turned out to be low.

The next time you encounter a person who has owned the same house for twenty years or more, ask two questions; what did you pay for it; what is it worth today. Then ask what he paid for the first new car he bought and then compare this to the advertised prices for a similar new car in today's market. You'll get an earful of how both of these things surprised him.

On the other hand, wages, in general, have risen at a pace which has always permitted people to buy all of the new homes and new cars produced. Yes, there has been an occasional blip, but the graph continues to climb.

It's quite likely that your grandfather's generation, when your age, had the same doubts you are experiencing. I believe that your grown grandchildren, who will be far better off than you, as you are better off than your grandfather was at your age, will, at the same point in their lives, will experience similar doubts.
If you disagree, and think we have reached the highest step on the ladder in the evolution of economics, I think we're (as two people in debate) stuck. I simply don't think we're (as society) there yet (nor will we ever be, in my opinion).
As the old cliche' goes, "You ain't seen nuthin' yet!"
I do, however, think capitalism will last for quite some time.
Because it has been recognized as the best way to raise living standards, it continues to spread throughout the world.
 

ncallaway

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Whatever the reason may be for it's fall, I still don't think capitalism will last forever. It may outlast America (which is what this thread is about), it may not. I simply don't think it will last as long as humans do.

Change has never ended. From the beginning of time, we have been changing out ways, and I simply don't see capitalism as the final stepping stone. I don't believe there is a final stepping stone. I think change will continue to occur right up until the end of humanity, whenever that may be. I think government systems will change, I think economic systems will change. If there's one thing I believe in, it's change.

Humanity doesn't like to do the same old thing for millenia. Things change. I think capitalism will too, eventually. Be interesting to see, if only I would live that long...
 

Youve Got To Be Kidding!

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Coorporate capitalism does change. It changes into communism. HAIL BUSH AND SCREW YOU! (not directed at anyone)
 

Fantasea

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teacher said:
ncallaway said:
Whatever the reason may be for it's fall, I still don't think capitalism will last forever.

I think we will come to a SENSIBLE Democratic, Socialist Republic. There's some words you don't often see together.
That's true. I can't remember the last time I saw the word Democratic preceded by the word Sensible.

Socialist Republic? That's another story. Those words were linked up from the Russian revolution until the whole thing collapsed under Gorbachev. Some of the remnants refer to themselves as a "Peoples Democratic Republic. Now, how's that for a Democratic sandwich?

We can expect to see capitalism last at least to about the same time that a herd of unicorns begins watering at the reflecting pool in DC.
 

Imudman

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Capitalism will probably last a long time in America. But most individual freedoms are being eroded, turning us into some kind of wierd capitalist/socialized democratic corporation bent on every neighbor ruliing one another through endless regulation and fee charging. Oh sure, dollars are exchanged and the stock market does well, but now people are seriously committed to things like making supermarkets charge for plastic bags (like it'll make a difference to anyone)...
 

stsburns

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You run your own business like me then we will talk! :mrgreen: And if you hate capitalism, I'm sure other countries would love to have your citizenship! If you hate coporations, DONT BUY ANYTHING!
 

Imudman

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stsburns said:
You run your own business like me then we will talk! :mrgreen: And if you hate capitalism, I'm sure other countries would love to have your citizenship! If you hate coporations, DONT BUY ANYTHING!
As a matter of fact, I do run my own business, and I probably work harder than you. I never said I hated capitalism (in fact I've said it's the best designed by man), but corporatism is an abomination against the dignity of man. How 'bout them apples...?
 

Connecticutter

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Imudman said:
As a matter of fact, I do run my own business, and I probably work harder than you. I never said I hated capitalism (in fact I've said it's the best designed by man), but corporatism is an abomination against the dignity of man. How 'bout them apples...?
If I may jump in here for a second...

I'm a strong believer in capitalism - that is private ownship and peaceful trade among people. What exactly do you mean by corporatism? I believe that people should absolutely be allowed to form corporations. I'm too happy about corporate subsidies and bail-outs, though.
 

Imudman

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Connecticutter said:
If I may jump in here for a second...

I'm a strong believer in capitalism - that is private ownship and peaceful trade among people. What exactly do you mean by corporatism? I believe that people should absolutely be allowed to form corporations. I'm too happy about corporate subsidies and bail-outs, though.
Here's a definition I found on the web..."A sociopolitical philosophy that is antithetical to both Marxist and liberal democratic political ideals. It found its most developed expression in Italy under Benito Mussolini. A corporatist would organize society into industrial and professional corporations that serve as organs of political representation within a hierarchical, centralized polity controlled by the state. A corporatist society is elitist, patrimonialist, authoritarian, and statist. ."

If you don't think our government serves the will of corporations, you're either naive or deluded. I suppose people should have the right to band together in business for mutual benefit, but I don't think their corporations should enjoy the privelege of perpetuity. It isn't fair that a natural person should have to compete in business against an immortal, souless, amalgamation of capital and political influence.

One might think, according to the definition above, that corporatism requires that the government be the one organizing society into corporate subdivisions. While this might have been true in Mussolini's Italy, today in America it is the government being used as a tool by corporations to control society. If you have a better word than corporatism for what we're experiencing today, please let me know...
 
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