• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Do you think BLM has made a difference?

MaggieD

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,663
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
With his pledge to overhaul the city's police oversight system, Mayor Rahm Emanuel has vowed to create something unprecedented in Chicago history: an agency that aggressively investigates abuse allegations and works urgently and independently to resolve them.
Now, a Tribune investigation reveals the scope of the challenge. Since its creation in 2007, the Independent Police Review Authority, the agency the mayor plans to replace, largely has failed at its main tasks investigating police abuse and holding officers accountable.
The office has conducted investigations that were slow and superficial, and investigators have sometimes questioned officers briefly and given them deferential treatment, allowing police to avoid rigorous scrutiny. Often, that questioning took place months or years after an incident occurred.


IPRA has cleared officers in spite of physical evidence of misconduct, and recommended punishment in less than 4 percent of its cases. But even that rate is inflated by accidental weapon discharges that spurred little discipline; excluding those, the agency has upheld allegations in approximately 125 cases over the last four years, or roughly 30 a year out of the close to 2,000 cases it handles each year, the Tribune found.


That amounts to about 1.7 percent.


When it did recommend discipline, it often sought light punishment. And with many avenues for police to contest proposed punishments, IPRA's recommended discipline often didn't stick.


[BOLD]Many of the Tribune's findings could have been made about IPRA's predecessor, the Office of Professional Standards, or OPS, which also was widely criticized for failing to hold officers accountable, even when it was clear that they had engaged in misconduct.[/BOLD]


The officer who shot McQuon McDonald wasn't charged for over one year, and then only when the press ran the story.

We may not like BLM tactics, their name, their protests, etc, but it's pretty obvious to me that something had to be done. This story, excerpted above, just broke this morning.

Your thoughts?




Broken police oversight system rarely punishes cops - Chicago Tribune
 

Casper

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Messages
26,734
Reaction score
11,521
Location
Elsewhere
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent
Have they made a difference, yes, we are even more divided before they started their protests, not because they are protesting but because they too often are violent and the hate displayed by so many of the marchers.
 

ajn678

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 19, 2016
Messages
8,004
Reaction score
3,422
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Yes. They have managed to make things worse.
 

Tim the plumber

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
16,501
Reaction score
3,829
Location
Sheffield
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Have they made a difference, yes, we are even more divided before they started their protests, not because they are protesting but because they too often are violent and the hate displayed by so many of the marchers.

From the distance of the other side of the Atlantic it is my instinct that it would be far more effective for a black man to have cameras all over his car than to carry a gun to defend against the police but when I see some of the videos where police actions where they have killed somebody for very weak reasons I have to say that I can see the reasons why the black man has to make the police worry about him rather than keep doing what they have been.

As Makaveli pointed out being unarmed makes you despised as well all else.
 

Lutherf

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 16, 2012
Messages
46,361
Reaction score
52,248
Location
Tucson, AZ
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative


The officer who shot McQuon McDonald wasn't charged for over one year, and then only when the press ran the story.

We may not like BLM tactics, their name, their protests, etc, but it's pretty obvious to me that something had to be done. This story, excerpted above, just broke this morning.

Your thoughts?




Broken police oversight system rarely punishes cops - Chicago Tribune

I don't fault the idea so much as I fault their methods. While I'm always willing to listen to people's opinions on various matters I'm decidedly unimpressed by this group's penchant for disrupting various events such as campaign stops, concerts, public roadways, etc. In general, when someone's "discussion" turns into "shouting at me" I stop listening.
 

Ikari

Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
87,195
Reaction score
57,539
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left


The officer who shot McQuon McDonald wasn't charged for over one year, and then only when the press ran the story.

We may not like BLM tactics, their name, their protests, etc, but it's pretty obvious to me that something had to be done. This story, excerpted above, just broke this morning.

Your thoughts?




Broken police oversight system rarely punishes cops - Chicago Tribune

There's no doubt that there is a problem. Broken oversight...more like no oversight. With cops protecting cops when they do bad, there is no trust between them and the People any longer. And we continue to see examples of questionable uses of force by Government agents against the Free Citizenry. Something needs to change.

What has BLM done? I don't think they've had a very positive overall. I think in general we've seen an uptick in the reporting of bad policing, and things like the Tribune investigation is likely spurred by that and yes the noise made by BLM does promote some of this to front page. However, we were starting to get there.

I think BLM overlooks certain aspects of the base problem, it's not just black folk police are mowing down. They kill far more white people (if those aggregated stats are to be believed, but i don't think those numbers are very accurate) as well and the way the police interact, in they "respect my authority" sort of manner, escalates confrontations to the point where violence can be excused. So there is the overall glossing over of the actual problem...no oversight. Secondly, while the movement doesn't endorse the use of violence, it has brought it about. Now after Dallas, things will be worse. There is a real problem, but BLM I think overall does more damage than it does good in addressing that fundamental.
 

joG

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 27, 2013
Messages
43,839
Reaction score
9,653
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Independent


The officer who shot McQuon McDonald wasn't charged for over one year, and then only when the press ran the story.

We may not like BLM tactics, their name, their protests, etc, but it's pretty obvious to me that something had to be done. This story, excerpted above, just broke this morning.

Your thoughts?




Broken police oversight system rarely punishes cops - Chicago Tribune

On the other hand, I am not sure that the things that have to be done are related to black lives mattering in the sense BLM seems to sell the story. I am not sure, but it does look as though the number of police killings of blacks is not so out of proportion to the other data. There is a lot of violence in the US and the blacks are cohort that brings forth an especially large number of violent individuals and groups. The cohort appears not to do well in rearing, upbringing and education. BLM does not have anything substantial to bring to the table as far as this goes.

Where they are absolutely right is that it cannot go on as it is going, because our approach was fundamentally flawed. It has no viable alternative. But it has alerted an awful lot of people that the problem is close to boiling over.
 

MaggieD

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,663
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate

From the distance of the other side of the Atlantic it is my instinct that it would be far more effective for a black man to have cameras all over his car than to carry a gun to defend against the police but when I see some of the videos where police actions where they have killed somebody for very weak reasons I have to say that I can see the reasons why the black man has to make the police worry about him rather than keep doing what they have been.

As Makaveli pointed out being unarmed makes you despised as well all else.

No. A cop worried about his safety with a man of ANY race is very dangerous. So misguided, Tim.
 

Harry Guerrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
28,951
Reaction score
12,422
Location
Not affiliated with other libertarians.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian


The officer who shot McQuon McDonald wasn't charged for over one year, and then only when the press ran the story.

We may not like BLM tactics, their name, their protests, etc, but it's pretty obvious to me that something had to be done. This story, excerpted above, just broke this morning.

Your thoughts?




Broken police oversight system rarely punishes cops - Chicago Tribune

Yes, they've pushed for bad cops to be removed/prosecuted and some amount of justice has been done.

With that said, the leadership in the movement is severely lacking and without moderation.
They're amateurs and it's going to backfire or collapse, if they don't get control the more extreme, internal issues.
 

MaggieD

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
43,244
Reaction score
44,663
Location
Chicago Area
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
I don't fault the idea so much as I fault their methods. While I'm always willing to listen to people's opinions on various matters I'm decidedly unimpressed by this group's penchant for disrupting various events such as campaign stops, concerts, public roadways, etc. In general, when someone's "discussion" turns into "shouting at me" I stop listening.

Peaceful protest and interference is democracy in action, I think. OTOH, throwing rocks, bottles, rebar, etc. is not. And some quasi-followers need to be firmly taught that lesson.

There's no doubt that there is a problem. Broken oversight...more like no oversight. With cops protecting cops when they do bad, there is no trust between them and the People any longer. And we continue to see examples of questionable uses of force by Government agents against the Free Citizenry. Something needs to change.

What has BLM done? I don't think they've had a very positive overall. I think in general we've seen an uptick in the reporting of bad policing, and things like the Tribune investigation is likely spurred by that and yes the noise made by BLM does promote some of this to front page. However, we were starting to get there.

I think BLM overlooks certain aspects of the base problem, it's not just black folk police are mowing down. They kill far more white people (if those aggregated stats are to be believed, but i don't think those numbers are very accurate) as well and the way the police interact, in they "respect my authority" sort of manner, escalates confrontations to the point where violence can be excused. So there is the overall glossing over of the actual problem...no oversight. Secondly, while the movement doesn't endorse the use of violence, it has brought it about. Now after Dallas, things will be worse. There is a real problem, but BLM I think overall does more damage than it does good in addressing that fundamental.

I agree they have brought about violence. There's no clear leader. And what leaders they have make the mistake of not loudly denouncing said violence. Very poorly organized. Right now, all they have is a catchy name they should probably lose.

On the other hand, I am not sure that the things that have to be done are related to black lives mattering in the sense BLM seems to sell the story. I am not sure, but it does look as though the number of police killings of blacks is not so out of proportion to the other data. There is a lot of violence in the US and the blacks are cohort that brings forth an especially large number of violent individuals and groups. The cohort appears not to do well in rearing, upbringing and education. BLM does not have anything substantial to bring to the table as far as this goes.

Where they are absolutely right is that it cannot go on as it is going, because our approach was fundamentally flawed. It has no viable alternative. But it has alerted an awful lot of people that the problem is close to boiling over.

IMO, if this movement does nothing else, police oversight IS going to change. More departments are going to work with body and dash cams, and more bad cops are going to be thrown out.
 

TheGoverness

Little Miss Sunshine
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
38,995
Reaction score
47,338
Location
Houston Area, TX
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Liberal
Peaceful protest and interference is democracy in action, I think. OTOH, throwing rocks, bottles, rebar, etc. is not. And some quasi-followers need to be firmly taught that lesson.

I agree. And inciting violence, starting riots, and hijacking other's events does absolutely no favors for the BLM movement as a whole. It just makes their message even harder to get across to people.
 

radcen

Phonetic Mnemonic ©
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
34,817
Reaction score
18,576
Location
Look to your right... I'm that guy.
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist


The officer who shot McQuon McDonald wasn't charged for over one year, and then only when the press ran the story.

We may not like BLM tactics, their name, their protests, etc, but it's pretty obvious to me that something had to be done. This story, excerpted above, just broke this morning.

Your thoughts?

I think the real lesson in this instance is something else. BLM itself did not make the difference. The light of day in the media made the difference. I don't think it would have made one whit of difference if BLM had "protested" til the cows came home. It was public exposure that got the powers that be scrambling.
 

PIPEWRENCH

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 19, 2014
Messages
14,551
Reaction score
5,139
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Unfortunately it takes the media to get the message out to enough people to get things done.

But the media could care less about the message just the hype and money that can be generated. We the People could care less unless there is hype and sensationalism involved as well. So even if they did print it nobody would read it or care.

So if you want to get something done you need to burn cars, loot stores, and injure people. The more mayhem the more media attention and good people who will get involved.

I lived in a major city and you were lucky to find any information about a black person being killed unless the media could spin into lots of money. So as far as our media is concerned BLM only when they can make money off of it. Most people only care when it becomes a big story. Those are the facts.

So to answer the question. Yes, they have created enough hype and mayhem to make the media money and get the good people to read and react.
 

radcen

Phonetic Mnemonic ©
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
34,817
Reaction score
18,576
Location
Look to your right... I'm that guy.
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Unfortunately it takes the media to get the message out to enough people to get things done.

But the media could care less about the message just the hype and money that can be generated. We the People could care less unless there is hype and sensationalism involved as well. So even if they did print it nobody would read it or care.

So if you want to get something done you need to burn cars, loot stores, and injure people. The more mayhem the more media attention and good people who will get involved.

I lived in a major city and you were lucky to find any information about a black person being killed unless the media could spin into lots of money. So as far as our media is concerned BLM only when they can make money off of it. Most people only care when it becomes a big story. Those are the facts.

So to answer the question. Yes, they have created enough hype and mayhem to make the media money and get the good people to read and react.
Fair points. If everyone figures out you're going to be dickless about it, then they'll start ignoring you again.
 

Tim the plumber

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
16,501
Reaction score
3,829
Location
Sheffield
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
No. A cop worried about his safety with a man of ANY race is very dangerous. So misguided, Tim.

I understand that but a cop who likes to kill and has no worry about the threat from the target is even worse.
 

matchlight

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
9,869
Reaction score
3,495
Location
Los Angeles area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
No. A cop worried about his safety with a man of ANY race is very dangerous. So misguided, Tim.

I don't see anything at all dangerous or misguided about a policeman's being worried about his safety when confronting armed thugs. In that situation, you can bet they will ALL be scared, no matter the race of the thug, and they will have damned good reason to be. Anyone who is not scared when faced with the possibility of armed combat is not getting the picture.
 

RetiredUSN

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2016
Messages
34,564
Reaction score
19,233
Location
Norfolk Virginia area.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
No. A cop worried about his safety with a man of ANY race is very dangerous. So misguided, Tim.

Police are much like any other group of people Maggie. There is a reason that cops would rather work the oceanfront and marina districts here in Virginia Beach, than working the bad neighborhoods in Norfolk, Hampton, Newport News, and Portsmouth. I could pull up the stats that show how incredible the difference is in violent crime between the 5 cities if you like. Virginia Beach has it's own problems, but is still a much safer place to work overall for a cop.

The police in the other 4 cities have to put up with a lot of neighborhood street brawls, shootings, stabbings, assaults, domestic violence.........with most calls dealing with repeat criminal offenders & felons.

Many police in the other 4 cities would jump at the opportunity to work on the Virginia Beach force to get away from the ugliness for quite a few reasons, with personal safety being right at the top of the list.
 

Patrickt

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 28, 2006
Messages
3,595
Reaction score
1,096
Location
Oaxaca, Mexico
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
The OP is assuming that whipping up a lynch mob is doing something that must be done. I disagree.
 

Patrickt

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 28, 2006
Messages
3,595
Reaction score
1,096
Location
Oaxaca, Mexico
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
There's no doubt that there is a problem. Broken oversight...more like no oversight. With cops protecting cops when they do bad, there is no trust between them and the People any longer. And we continue to see examples of questionable uses of force by Government agents against the Free Citizenry. Something needs to change.

What has BLM done? I don't think they've had a very positive overall. I think in general we've seen an uptick in the reporting of bad policing, and things like the Tribune investigation is likely spurred by that and yes the noise made by BLM does promote some of this to front page. However, we were starting to get there.

I think BLM overlooks certain aspects of the base problem, it's not just black folk police are mowing down. They kill far more white people (if those aggregated stats are to be believed, but i don't think those numbers are very accurate) as well and the way the police interact, in they "respect my authority" sort of manner, escalates confrontations to the point where violence can be excused. So there is the overall glossing over of the actual problem...no oversight. Secondly, while the movement doesn't endorse the use of violence, it has brought it about. Now after Dallas, things will be worse. There is a real problem, but BLM I think overall does more damage than it does good in addressing that fundamental.

What a wonderful example of an individual assuming his bizarre view is the norm.
 

Ikari

Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
87,195
Reaction score
57,539
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
What a wonderful example of an individual assuming his bizarre view is the norm.

What a pointless and meaningless statement. If you disagree, attack the argument not the individual.
 
Top Bottom