Do you support Antifa's protest of Tucker Carlson at his home?

[Rogue Valley]

Well, considering that 91% of this poll (32 people) declared that they do not support ANTIFA's protest at Carlson's home, your sly comment about how silent folks are appears politically angled and a little bit of nonsense.

The fact of the matter is that until ANTIFA members start sending bombs to Republican politicians or massacring Jews and blacks in their places of worship, most folks just aren't that concerned with ANTIFA's confrontation with the alt-Right or harassments towards right-wing pundits. This is just the nature of the beast. No doctor cares about your bruised shoulder as long as you have a gushing head wound. All ANTIFA is managing to do is offer conservatives a distraction to the extremism that displays itself quite openly at our President's rallies.

Calling this terrorism? Sure. But at least nobody mailed Carlson a bomb.

The Right will roll right on by this post like it's invisible.

 

[Jade Dragon]

As long as the multimedia echo chamber, various law enforcement and their city superiors refuse to stop them, Antifa will keep on doing this stuff. They'll keep on ratcheting up the violence and aggression until someone gets killed. Then their media buddies can blame Antifa's target.

But Antifa is making a mistake with the kind of action they took against Carlson. If Carlson's wife had felt that her life was threatened, she could have opened fire on the mob...and she would face zero charges.

The police can't do anything until they break the law. Since they now did, hopefully appropriate actions will be taken. You don't open fire on people like that. They weren't armed, and you wouldn't be guaranteed freedom from repercussions. It is morally depraved to shoot to kill, unless it's dire life, or death. As a Christian myself, I wouldn't use a gun unless I had no choice. I would in turn use it defensively.

 

[Cardinal]

The police can't do anything until they break the law. Since they now did, hopefully appropriate actions will be taken. You don't open fire on people like that. They weren't armed, and you wouldn't be guaranteed freedom from repercussions. It is morally depraved to shoot to kill, unless it's dire life, or death. As a Christian myself, I wouldn't use a gun unless I had no choice. I would in turn use it defensively.

Yeah, the idea that I wouldn't face charges for opening fire on people just because they're assholes (even if they're right outside my home) isn't a legal theory I'd want to test for myself.

 

[DH Kirkwood]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/08/media/tucker-carlson-protestors/index.html

(CNN)Police were called to the Washington, D.C. home of Fox News host Tucker Carlson on Wednesday night when a group of protesters showed up and shouted threats.

Smash Racism D.C., which calls itself an "anti-fascist," or Antifa, group, claimed responsibility for the protest on social media. It has previously targeted Ted Cruz, Kirstjen Nielsen, and other right-wing figures.
In videos uploaded to Twitter by the group on Wednesday, participants were heard saying "Tucker Carlson, we will fight! We know where you sleep at night!" They called him a "racist scumbag" and hurled epithets.
The Twitter account also shared Carlson's address, which is a violation of Twitter's rules. By late Wednesday night, Twitter had suspended the group, which means the tweets and videos are now deleted.

​

In a statement on Thursday, the Metropolitan Police Department said it is conducting an investigation into the disturbance.

If we want to have a broader discussion about who's doing what, that's one thing, but that's not the conversation we're having, so I'm just going to have to whole-sale denounce and disown these actions.

I'm all for peaceful protest. In fact, I think that all of us here, being people who actually give a **** about the goings on of this country, should at least attend one left-wing/right-wing protest in our life-time. Otherwise, we're just a bunch of assholes behind a keyboard.

However, I draw the line at messing with a person's person, or property. I don't know how I feel about the people who chanted Ted Cruz out of a restaurant, but I for damn sure don't support the people who threw out Mitch McConnell's food and such.

The left has historically done very well with peaceful protest, and I would like to continue that tradition. For anyone on either side of the fence that is angry and feels that it's necessary to take some sort of stand, I would implore them to think long and hard about the optics of their actions, and whether or not what they are doing, or plan on doing, is actually helpful or detrimental to their cause.

 

[Mycroft]

The police can't do anything until they break the law. Since they now did, hopefully appropriate actions will be taken. You don't open fire on people like that. They weren't armed, and you wouldn't be guaranteed freedom from repercussions. It is morally depraved to shoot to kill, unless it's dire life, or death. As a Christian myself, I wouldn't use a gun unless I had no choice. I would in turn use it defensively.

An assailant doesn't have to be armed for a victim to be in fear of their life and property.

I'd say a maniacal mob outside my door trying to break it down is enough justification to open fire. That...is taking defensive action.

Now...about the police. I agree that "hopefully appropriate actions will be taken". However, given the track record of Dem-controlled localities, I don't have much confidence any action will be forthcoming.

 

[Mycroft]

If we want to have a broader discussion about who's doing what, that's one thing, but that's not the conversation we're having, so I'm just going to have to whole-sale denounce and disown these actions.

I'm all for peaceful protest. In fact, I think that all of us here, being people who actually give a **** about the goings on of this country, should at least attend one left-wing/right-wing protest in our life-time. Otherwise, we're just a bunch of assholes behind a keyboard.

However, I draw the line at messing with a person's person, or property. I don't know how I feel about the people who chanted Ted Cruz out of a restaurant, but I for damn sure don't support the people who threw out Mitch McConnell's food and such.

The left has historically done very well with peaceful protest, and I would like to continue that tradition. For anyone on either side of the fence that is angry and feels that it's necessary to take some sort of stand, I would implore them to think long and hard about the optics of their actions, and whether or not what they are doing, or plan on doing, is actually helpful or detrimental to their cause.

"optics"??? "helpful or detrimental to their cause"???

How about whether it's "legal"?

 

[DH Kirkwood]

"optics"??? "helpful or detrimental to their cause"???

How about whether it's "legal"?

I'm a pot-smoker and a proponent of civil disobedience. I don't necessarily care about what's legal, and neither would someone who strongly believes that their actions are 'just'. I do not think that these actions are just, but it's much easier to demonstrate the counter-productive effect these actions have, than it is to convince younger, angry folks that what they are doing isn't even right.

 

[antiquity]

Protests? Yes, and that is dependent upon local law ordinances. That means local protests may not be allowed legally. Threats? No.

When I listened to the audio of the protestors I heard the words 'pipe bomb' so yes this was a domestic terrorist threat and the FBI should get involved.
I heard that a county?/city? ordinance that wearing a mask was illegal. Therefore these antifa protestors were violating the law which would be a local law enforcement matter and vandalism and physical threats can not be tolerated.
And finally if the left thinks Trump incites violence by his remarks than Maxine Waters and other leftist should be arrested fore aiding and abetting.

 

[Felis Leo]

Tucker Carlson is the enemy of the people, per trump’s own words. What was Antifa supposed to do?

I did not realize that AntiFa claimed that Donald Trump was their moral leader. :roll:

 

[Rogue Valley]

I heard that a county?/city? ordinance that wearing a mask was illegal.

Hope that doesn't apply in hospitals and clinics.

 

[Cardinal]

I did not realize that AntiFa claimed that Donald Trump was their moral leader. :roll:

There's a lot to unpack from your post. It implies that Trump isn't their President, or that only Republicans are allowed to take his words to heart, or that Trump's words are only allowed to be applied to all media except ultra right wing propaganda outlets.

But maybe Antifa concluded that, hey, fake news is the enemy of the people, and they acted accordingly.

 

[Cardinal]

Hope that doesn't apply in hospitals and clinics.

Or to welders.

 

[Jade Dragon]

An assailant doesn't have to be armed for a victim to be in fear of their life and property.

I'd say a maniacal mob outside my door trying to break it down is enough justification to open fire. That...is taking defensive action.

Now...about the police. I agree that "hopefully appropriate actions will be taken". However, given the track record of Dem-controlled localities, I don't have much confidence any action will be forthcoming.

Don't people know how to defensively use a gun? You don't have to fire to deal with unarmed protestors. To do so is heinous, in every possible moral sense. If the only result of using a gun is you shoot someone, then maybe training is needed to use a gun, just like a car.

 

[Felis Leo]

There's a lot to unpack from your post. It implies that Trump isn't their President, or that only Republicans are allowed to take his words to heart, or that Trump's words are only allowed to be applied to all media except ultra right wing propaganda outlets.

But maybe Antifa concluded that, hey, fake news is the enemy of the people, and they acted accordingly.

Well, Cardinal, a few things. First, I am not sure what precisely motivated these members of AntiFa to threaten, stalk and harass the Carlson family. If it is your contention that they are listening to President Trump and attacking opinion journalists because they were given license by the President, alright. I would need to be convinced of that. Second, there is a difference in kind, not merely of degree, between one accepting someone as your president versus accepting someone as a moral figure to be listened to and emulated in your everyday life. I do not think very many people right, left or center could claim that Donald Trump is a moral figure worthy of emulation. Anyone who claims that they were just listening to Trump and should therefore be let off the hook for their immoral and possibly illegal behavior is a dunce who, if not incarcerated, should probably be confined to their homes with all sharp corners of the furniture sanded off, and only be allowed to eat off plasticware so as not to harm themselves.

 

[Cardinal]

Well, Cardinal, a few things. First, I am not sure what precisely motivated these members of AntiFa to threaten, stalk and harass the Carlson family. If it is your contention that they are listening to President Trump and attacking opinion journalists because they were given license by the President, alright. I would need to be convinced of that. Second, there is a difference in kind, not merely degree, between one accepting someone as your president versus accepting someone as a moral figure to be emulated in your everyday life. I do not think very many people right, left or center could claim that Donald Trump is a moral figure worthy of emulation. Anyone who claims that they were just listening to Trump and should therefore be let off the hook for their immoral and possibly illegal behavior is a dunce who should possibly confined to their homes with all sharp corners of the furniture sanded off.

I see. You want to live in a universe in which the President's words have no consequences. Sorry, my friend, this is not that universe. Until we know more it's safe to assume that Antifa likely took their inspiration for their protest against Tucker Carlson from the President and that they were appropriately treating him as an enemy of the people since he regularly promulgates fake news.

Now, "enemy of the people" is a broad concept and can invite a wide variety of responses. People often kill their enemies, and that Antifa chose to just yell outside his home instead is something we should all be grateful for. If they had been a right wing organization they likely would have shot Tucker Carlson or mailed him a pipe bomb instead.

 

[Common Sense 1]

I see. You want to live in a universe in which the President's words have no consequences. Sorry, my friend, this is not that universe. Until we know more it's safe to assume that Antifa likely took their inspiration for their protest against Tucker Carlson from the President and that they were appropriately treating him as an enemy of the people since he regularly promulgates fake news.

Now, "enemy of the people" is a broad concept and can invite a wide variety of responses. People often kill their enemies, and that Antifa chose to just yell outside his home instead is something we should all be grateful for. If they had been a right wing organization they likely would have shot Tucker Carlson or mailed him a pipe bomb instead.

We should be grateful that Antifa chose not to kill Tucker and his family. What a vile and sicko comment.

Just making excuses for the criminal Antifa as is usually done! Anything is OK because I hate Trump.....
One time Antifa is going to trespass, vandalizes and bang on the wrong door.

 

[Cardinal]

We should be grateful that Antifa chose not to kill Tucker and his family. What a vile and sicko comment.

Uh, no. We should be grateful that they weren't a right wing organization when they took their inspiration from the President, otherwise that's probably what would have happened.

Read gooder.

 

[ClaraD]

The right don't do this to the left.

No, they just kill protestors they don't like.

 

[Felis Leo]

I see. You want to live in a universe in which the President's words have no consequences. Sorry, my friend, this is not that universe.

It is not my contention that a President's words have no influence, Cardinal. A President's words have tremendous influence, but the specific magisterium to which those words should be relegated is solely over the tenor and administration of the Federal executive branch. But as how we are to conduct our everyday lives and our personal intercourse with one another, I do not see how a President can or should act as a moral thought leader simply by virtue of his office. I never looked up to any prior President as some kind of moral exemplar whose example I should follow. And when I did find myself admiring particular aspects of a President, I admired the man, not the office which he occupied.

Until we know more it's safe to assume that Antifa likely took their inspiration for their protest against Tucker Carlson from the President and that they were appropriately treating him as an enemy of the people since he regularly promulgates fake news.

Let us be morally serious. I see no safety in making any such assumption. It is my argument that people must be held solely responsible for their own actions. Unless it is your contention that you believe these members of AntiFa are some species of Manchurian Candidates who have become conditioned to inexorably react to certain statements and actions made by the President, I do not see how you can operate in any other way. After all, turning it to the personal: have you felt more like physically attacking members of the Press who have criticized or maligned Trump since he took charge? Have you felt more like cheating on your wife because the man inhabiting the White House is a serial adulterer? Have you felt more like defrauding business partners and not paying your creditors, since the Trump filed multiple Chapter 11 bankruptcies? If not, how is it that you have managed to restrain yourself but so many others haven't been able to resist the siren's call of the President? And why shouldn't others be expected to exhibit that same restraint?

Now, "enemy of the people" is a broad concept and can invite a wide variety of responses. People often kill their enemies, and that Antifa chose to just yell outside his home instead is something we should all be grateful for. If they had been a right wing organization they likely would have shot Tucker Carlson or mailed him a pipe bomb instead.

I think I see. If your only concern is to use the statements and actions of Trump as the truncheon with which to beat any opponent on the political right and a shield to excuse immoral and illegal actions by people on the political left, have at it. It is a loud, large truncheon.

 

[Fletch]

I see. You want to live in a universe in which the President's words have no consequences. Sorry, my friend, this is not that universe. Until we know more it's safe to assume that Antifa likely took their inspiration for their protest against Tucker Carlson from the President and that they were appropriately treating him as an enemy of the people since he regularly promulgates fake news.

Now, "enemy of the people" is a broad concept and can invite a wide variety of responses. People often kill their enemies, and that Antifa chose to just yell outside his home instead is something we should all be grateful for. If they had been a right wing organization they likely would have shot Tucker Carlson or mailed him a pipe bomb instead.

I have to admit that there is a certain amount of skill required to be able to dream up a way to blame Trump for the actions of a group like Antifa. Perhaps its just the years of experience in blaming America for all the worlds ills that makes it so easy for you.

 

[Cardinal]

It is not my contention that a President's words have no influence, Cardinal. A President's words have tremendous influence, but the specific magisterium to which those words should be relegated is solely over the tenor and administration of the Federal executive branch. But as how we are to conduct our everyday lives and our personal intercourse with one another, I do not see how a President can or should act as a moral thought leader simply by virtue of his office. I never looked up to any prior President as some kind of moral exemplar whose example I should follow. And when I did find myself admiring particular aspects of a President, I admired the man, not the office which he occupied.

You just contradicted yourself.

Let us be morally serious. I see no safety in making any such assumption. It is my argument that people must be held solely responsible for their own actions. Unless it is your contention that you believe these members of AntiFa are some species of Manchurian Candidates who have become conditioned to inexorably react to certain statements and actions made by the President, I do not see how you can operate in any other way. After all, turning it to the personal: have you felt more like physically attacking members of the Press who have criticized or maligned Trump since he took charge? Have you felt more like cheating on your wife because the man inhabiting the White House is a serial adulterer? Have you felt more like defrauding business partners and not paying your creditors, since the Trump filed multiple Chapter 11 bankruptcies? If not, how is it that you have managed to restrain yourself but so many others haven't been able to resist the siren's call of the President? And why shouldn't others be expected to exhibit that same restraint?

Are you saying the President is a bad human being?

I think I see. If your only concern is to use the statements and actions of Trump as the truncheon with which to beat any opponent on the political right and a shield to excuse immoral and illegal actions by people on the political left, have at it. It is a loud, large truncheon.

I'm pointing out that Antifa's decision to harass a member of fake news is entirely consistent with the position of the President and the Republicans who support him. How they went about it is not, thankfully, consistent with the actions of White Supremacist groups. To that extent Antifa is only a group of assholes and not murderers.

 

[iguanaman]

The right don't do this to the left.

No they just run over them with a car......

Charlottesville, Virginia (CNN)One person was killed and 19 were hurt when a speeding car slammed into a throng of counterprotesters in Charlottesville, where a "Unite the Right" rally of white nationalist and other right-wing groups had been scheduled to take place, the city tweeted on its verified account.

A 32-year-old woman was killed while walking across the street, Charlottesville Police Chief Al Thomas said. Police were still in the process of notifying her family.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/08/12/us/charlottesville-white-nationalists-rally/index.html

 

[Felis Leo]

You just contradicted yourself.

How am I contradicting myself, Cardinal? I am saying that a President's words should be seen to only have influence over the specific area of his authority, i.e., the actions of the Executive Branch of government. And there they should stop, because as a human being, a President's words should have no more influence over your personal life than the words head of your local branch of the DMV over your personal life. Unless you are dealing directly with the DMV, who cares what he or she says or thinks?

Are you saying the President is a bad human being?

Yes. Simply put, Donald Trump is a bad human being. That is not to discount the fact that I believe he sometimes makes good decisions in his office as the President. But he is still an intractably dishonest tub-thumper who cannot be trusted any further than he can be thrown.

I'm pointing out that the actions of Antifa are entirely consistent with the position of the President and the Republicans who support him. They're not, thankfully, consistent with the actions of White Supremacist groups. To that extent Antifa is merely a group of assholes instead of murderers.

If that is your position, alright. I certainly agree that murder as an instrument of terror is worse than vandalizing or attempting to break into one's home, and loudly shouting threats at one's family outside of one's home. But political terrorism is a gradient, not simply an act of killing. It takes multiple forms, from threats shouted on the streets, to mailing death threats or chemical substances, to physically accosting and assault, to mobs battering a person, to kidnapping, up to and including murder and mass murder. It all has the same purpose: to intimidate into silence or eliminate one's political opposition through the use of terror. It is all reprehensible, and those who engage in political terrorism must be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

 

[Xelor]

You can protest any way you like, and others might choose another method. That's fine IMO.

As to this case, as I said I don't approve...

Protests, when they impose any difficulty upon others, such as blocking passage on public streets and sidewalks, etc. should not be considered peaceful assemblies, but instead inciteful, and with intent to provoke some reaction leading to violence by one side or the other.

I fundamentally disagree if you mean "any difficulty" literally. "the right of the people peaceably to assemble" does not at all IMO mean, "the right of the people to peaceably assemble in a manner that imposes no inconvenience on anyone at all." I guess the way I'd look at is if there is no injustice or government wrongdoing for which you'd be unwilling to even block a sidewalk, or temporarily block a street, then you haven't identified any actually significant injustice or wrongdoing.

I agree with you, for the most part.

I'd add, as commentary on the "red" bit of the passage you quoted, that intent is a very difficult thing to establish for rarely is there a "smoking gun" that'll make incontrovertible one's or a group's intent.

• It's not too hard to discern that one's actions/words catalyzed others to perform a given act, adopt a given stance/attitude.
• Showing that one intended one's words/deeds to catalyze a given behavior, as opposed to some other behavior, is a wholly different matter.

 

[RetiredUSN]

We should be grateful that Antifa chose not to kill Tucker and his family. What a vile and sicko comment.

Just making excuses for the criminal Antifa as is usually done! Anything is OK because I hate Trump.....
One time Antifa is going to trespass, vandalizes and bang on the wrong door.

When you converse with phonies.......expect as much.