Do you support airport ethnic profiling of Middle Easterners?

[vergiss]

You have a strange definition of a couple I gave you a list of more than a thousand terrorist attacks in the last year alone and you call it a couple how about the attack in Bali??? Did that one hit a little closer to home? How about 9-11? How about the British bus bombings? How about the Madrid train bombings? How about the Russian school children who were murdered in cold blood? Do the people who die have to be white before you take notice? What, do the people who aren't western not count in your book???

You cannot count. That is nowhere near a thousand different attacks.

Why do I need to fear suicide bombers in Arghanistan or Iraq? I'm in Adelaide, Australia. I have reason to fear them any more than AIDS in Africa, or civil war in South America. It's nothing to do with what "counts", its to do with justifying ridiculous measures to protect Westerners from something that is not a big deal in the scale of things.

Bali (of which there were two seperate attacks, I might add), 9/11, London - terrible, yes, but the bodycount combined would be, what - 3, 500 in four years? Millions more in the West have died from cancer, heart disease, car accidents in that time. Thousands more Americans than that are murdered every year by other Americans.

Put things into perspective and get over yourselves.

 

[mixedmedia]

Good post, vergiss.

Chechnyans are not Arab, Philippinos are not Arab, Indonesians are not Arab, for that matter, Pakistanis and Afghanis and Iranians are also, not Arab....what you are talking about is profiling on the basis of faith. Right, Trajan? Why not just say that?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

You cannot count. That is nowhere near a thousand different attacks.

Why do I need to fear suicide bombers in Arghanistan or Iraq? I'm in Adelaide, Australia. I have reason to fear them any more than AIDS in Africa, or civil war in South America. It's nothing to do with what "counts", its to do with justifying ridiculous measures to protect Westerners from something that is not a big deal in the scale of things.

Bali (of which there were two seperate attacks, I might add), 9/11, London - terrible, yes, but the bodycount combined would be, what - 3, 500 in four years? Millions more in the West have died from cancer, heart disease, car accidents in that time. Thousands more Americans than that are murdered every year by other Americans.

Put things into perspective and get over yourselves.

Perhaps you missed the link that I gave you because those were about 1% of the terrorist attacks that have happened in the past year if I was to put all of them on here it would have probably crashed the server here's the link again:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/default.htm#attacks

And as for not having to fear them because you're in Australia I suggest you read up on your Dr. Qubt who is the founder of the Islamic Brotherhood and inspiration to Osama bin Ladin he taught of Jahiliyya, I'm sorry to break it to you but Islamic fundamentalists don't care if you didn't do anything to them they want to kill you for simply being an unbeliever:

One of Qutb's main ideas was applying the term Jahiliyya, which originally referred to humanity's state of ignorance before the revelation of Islam, to modern-day Muslim societies. In his view, turning away from Islamic law and Islamic values under the influence of European imperialism had left the Muslim world in a condition of debased ignorance, similar to that of the pre-Islamic era (or Jahiliyya). In defining the Muslim world as in a state of Jahiliyya, Qutb concluded that all non-Islamic states were illegitimate, including that of Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_Qutb

Islamism refers to a set of political ideologies derived from various religious views of Muslim fundamentalists, which hold that Islam is not only a religion, but also a political system that should govern the legal, economic and social imperatives of the state. Islamist movements seek to re-shape the state by implementing a conservative formulation of Sharia. [1] Islamists regard themselves as Muslims rather than Islamists, while moderate Muslims and liberal movements within Islam reject this notion. Some perceive Islamists as Triumphalistic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

You simply don't understand the mind set of the enemy and until you realize that it's not us and that it's them you will continue to be their unwitting ally a fifth column as it were I suggest you take a religious studies course my friend it will really open your eyes on to the true nature of radical Islam.

And before you accuse me of being a bigot my professor who taught me this was Islamic (my favorite professor by the way) and he has seen first hand the carnage these radicals do not just to Westerners but to their fellow Muslims as well.

Ethnic profiling is not a pretense for racism it's a pretense for common sense.

 

[Saboteur]

The United States is fighting a new kind of war, though still using the tactics of attrition. In case you haven't noticed, the war on terror is a war on an emotion. For those of you who are so scared of the middle east... the war is over. Because you are afraid to live a normal life and insist that we need to persecute the muslims, carry weapons on airplanes, (much to the detriment of the Air Marshals that are already on board and well trained I might add) and who, last but not least, think we need to give up our right to pirvacy and be spied on by our own government. YOU have surrendered to terror and those who have terrified you.

How un-American.

 

[vergiss]

The United States is fighting a new kind of war, though still using the tactics of attrition. In case you haven't noticed, the war on terror is a war on an emotion. For those of you who are so scared of the middle east... the war is over. Because you are afraid to live a normal life and insist that we need to persecute the muslims, carry weapons on airplanes, (much to the detriment of the Air Marshals that are already on board and well trained I might add) and who, last but not least, think we need to give up our right to pirvacy and be spied on by our own government. YOU have surrendered to terror and those who have terrified you.

How un-American.

Not to mention cowardly and giving them exactly what they want.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

The United States is fighting a new kind of war, though still using the tactics of attrition. In case you haven't noticed, the war on terror is a war on an emotion. For those of you who are so scared of the middle east... the war is over. Because you are afraid to live a normal life and insist that we need to persecute the muslims, carry weapons on airplanes, (much to the detriment of the Air Marshals that are already on board and well trained I might add) and who, last but not least, think we need to give up our right to pirvacy and be spied on by our own government. YOU have surrendered to terror and those who have terrified you.

How un-American.

You are simply mistaken this is a war against radical Islam not against emotion or Muslims you are misinformed as to the nature of the enemy and their goals, have you read the Fatwa issued by O.B.L. do you know who Dr. Qutb is? . . . I thought not.

This is a real war against a real and detirmined enemy bent on world domination your attempts at skewing this very serious issue is not only fallacious it is dangerous and for you to categorize me as a bigot could not be more wrong, my favorite professor is a moderate Muslim who despises the radicals probably even more than I do.

 

[Saboteur]

Not to mention cowardly and giving them exactly what they want.

Yes, and if our troops fail then they will blame it on the liberals because these conservatives can't take responsibility for anything they do. They're like 11 year old school yard bullies. They push people around claiming to be tough, then if their rivals push back they run off scream about how crazy they are! They ignor the evidence that all our war is doing is creating new enemies. Our enemy will never run out of people who are against a country claiming to be moral and just yet who persecutes them and tortures them.

I have the memoirs of George Herbet Walker Bush Sr. on my shelf... in which he said he didn't go all the way to baghdad during the Gulf War because it would increase terrorism and Islamic extremism. General Norman Schwarkopf said the same thing in his book and so did Dick Cheney at the time.

But we're dealing with narrow minded people who are bent on hate and who cannot see their mistakes. They call liberals "radicals" but what are these people? They are the radicals. The extreme right wing who point fingers and whine when they are held accountable for their actions. They put up smoke screens to hide their past and the more they say the more the American people forgot what they said before.

Sorry I wrote you a novella.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Not to mention cowardly and giving them exactly what they want.

Did you even read my last post what about ALL-non Islamic governments don't you understand? Giving them exactly what they want is buying into the anti-western propaganda and double speak which is exactly what you're doing. The best trick the devil ever pulled is convincing the world he didn't exist.

 

[Saboteur]

You are simply mistaken this is a war against radical Islam not against emotion or Muslims you are misinformed as to the nature of the enemy and their goals, have you read the Fatwa issued by O.B.L. do you know who Dr. Qutb is? . . . I thought not.

This is a real war against a real and detirmined enemy bent on world domination your attempts at skewing this very serious issue is not only fallacious it is dangerous and for you to categorize me as a bigot could not be more wrong, my favorite professor is a moderate Muslim who despises the radicals probably even more than I do.

Yet they are not organized or "lawful Combatants" right? they are just a bunch of crazy people who need to be tortured right?

I though the war wasn't a holy war.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

!

Yes, and if our troops fail then they will blame it on the liberals because these conservatives can't take responsibility for anything they do. They're like 11 year old school yard bullies. They push people around claiming to be tough, then if their rivals push back they run off scream about how crazy they are! They ignor the evidence that all our war is doing is creating new enemies. Our enemy will never run out of people who are against a country claiming to be moral and just yet who persecutes them and tortures them.

I have the memoirs of George Herbet Walker Bush Sr. on my shelf... in which he said he didn't go all the way to baghdad during the Gulf War because it would increase terrorism and Islamic extremism. General Norman Schwarkopf said the same thing in his book and so did Dick Cheney at the time.

But we're dealing with narrow minded people who are bent on hate and who cannot see their mistakes. They call liberals "radicals" but what are these people? They are the radicals. The extreme right wing who point fingers and whine when they are held accountable for their actions. They put up smoke screens to hide their past and the more they say the more the American people forgot what they said before.

Sorry I wrote you a novella.

How dare you categorize me as some hate-mongering bigot you have no clue what you're talking about you continue to ignore what I have posted because it proves you wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt!!! The followers of Qubt and O.B.L. are bent on world domination and the destruction of ALL-non-Islamic states! I do not base my views on racism as you would have people believe I base them on the works of sholars and moderate Muslims who actually practice what they preach as opposed to the Jihadists and Islamic-fascists.

 

[Saboteur]

Did you even read my last post what about ALL-non Islamic governments don't you understand? Giving them exactly what they want is buying into the anti-western propaganda and double speak which is exactly what you're doing. The best trick the devil ever pulled is convincing the world he didn't exist.

No, what you are doing is double speak! Trying to blame the people who can see the truth, for your lies!

Your whole position is rehashed propaganda spewed by pundits on T.V. and radio.

 

[Saboteur]

Re: !

How dare you categorize me as some hate-mongering bigot you have no clue what you're talking about you continue to ignore what I have posted because it proves you wrong beyond the shadow of a doubt!!! The followers of Qubt and O.B.L. are bent on world domination and the destruction of ALL-non-Islamic states! I do not base my views on racism as you would have people believe I base them on the works of sholars and moderate Muslims who actually practice what they preach as opposed to the Jihadists and Islamic-fascists.

No it doesn't you just say I am wrong because you don't agree and I do know what I am talking about hate-boy!

Not to mention, you won't reveal your position on torture nor will you acknowledge that you are now saying that these people ARE lawful combatants. And do fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention!

 

[vergiss]

Did you even read my last post what about ALL-non Islamic governments don't you understand? Giving them exactly what they want is buying into the anti-western propaganda and double speak which is exactly what you're doing. The best trick the devil ever pulled is convincing the world he didn't exist.

Aww, does aiding and abetting the enemy hurt?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Yet they are not organized or "lawful Combatants" right? they are just a bunch of crazy people who need to be tortured right?

I though the war wasn't a holy war.

Perhaps you need a refresher in the Geneva convention:


Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[
that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
that of carrying arms openly;
that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

Do you know why these stipulations are in place, it is to protect the civilian populace from being killed by dettering comatants from hiding within the populace exactly what the insurgents are doing and exactly why they are not subject to protection under the Geneva convention.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

No, what you are doing is double speak! Trying to blame the people who can see the truth, for your lies!

Your whole position is rehashed propaganda spewed by pundits on T.V. and radio.

Tell me sir just what part is propaganda, just when did I say that all Muslims are the enemy and when did I state anything that is not unequivacable fact?

You are the one who has been subject to propaganda, let me guess you read Al-Jazeera.com don't you?

What I have stated are things that I have been taught by moderate Muslims who see through the double speak of the Radicals because they have seen exactly what they are and what they have done.

For you to call me a bigot is unfounded and I resent it very strongly for you to go into ad-hominen attacks on my credibility is unwarranted and further proof that you have no argument and I consider it as concession to defeat in the debate . . . good day.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Re: !

No it doesn't you just say I am wrong because you don't agree and I do know what I am talking about hate-boy!

Not to mention, you won't reveal your position on torture nor will you acknowledge that you are now saying that these people ARE lawful combatants. And do fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention!

My position on torture is that of international law which specifically states that the insurgents are not afforded POW status and are thus not subject to protection under the Geneva convention, for one who enjoys citing the Geneva Convention so much I suggest that you actually read the damn thing:

Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[
that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
that of carrying arms openly;
that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

Do you know why these stipulations are in place? It is to protect the civilian populace from being killed by dettering comatants from hiding within the populace which is exactly what the insurgents are doing and exactly why they are not subject to protection under the Geneva convention.

 

[Caine]

For all these people who say it's over hyped you're either retarded or are intentionally trying to aid and abet the enemy there are another 10,000 cases of Islamic terrorist attacks that I have found just within the last year and I can't put them all here because it would take up about ten pages so here's a link you mis informed useful idiots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/default.htm#attacks

YOUR AIDING THE ENEMY
YOUR AIDING THE ENEMY
WAHH WAHH WAHH WAHH WAHH WAHH

Its the battle cry of the Republic-an.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

YOUR AIDING THE ENEMY
YOUR AIDING THE ENEMY
WAHH WAHH WAHH WAHH WAHH WAHH

Its the battle cry of the Republic-an.

Well then stop doing it and we'll stop saying it. :mrgreen:

 

[Caine]

Well then stop doing it and we'll stop saying it. :mrgreen:

Nope... because unless im down right kissing GWB's ass, im "Aiding The Enemy"

And that, my friend, just isn't going to happen.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Nope... because unless im down right kissing GWB's ass, im "Aiding The Enemy"

And that, my friend, just isn't going to happen.

You don't have to kiss GWB's ass but when you claim that terrorism is only hype then you are aiding and abetting the enemy in that you think you can eliminate the problem by pretending that it doesn't exist.

 

[vergiss]

You don't have to kiss GWB's ass but when you claim that terrorism is only hype then you are aiding and abetting the enemy in that you think you can eliminate the problem by pretending that it doesn't exist.

Psst, Caine, I think he's in denial of his status as a terrorist sympathiser.

 

[Saboteur]

Perhaps you need a refresher in the Geneva convention:

Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[

that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

They are organized and have commanders.

that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

They have begun to wear the same kind of clothing especially shoes and it has been reported by interviewed marines that that is one way to indentify them.

that of carrying arms openly;

Last time I saw some actual battle footage the Insurgents had all kinds of weapons out in the open. And if you're talking about road side bombs... Then what is a land mine? Or if you are talking about explosive laden cars.... Then what is a Humvee?

that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

This is the same violation the U.S. has committed.

3.

Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization, from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.
5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

Do you know why these stipulations are in place, it is to protect the civilian populace from being killed by dettering comatants from hiding within the populace exactly what the insurgents are doing and exactly why they are not subject to protection under the Geneva convention.

It is obviously not just for civilians.

I can't believe I had to go through this word for word with you, you seem much smarter.

 

[Saboteur]

Tell me sir just what part is propaganda, just when did I say that all Muslims are the enemy and when did I state anything that is not unequivacable fact?

"this is an issue of common sense, airport security should not be wasting their time and resources strip searching old people and looking into kids shoes for bombs when it is quite obvious as to where the real threat lies. While it's true that most Arabs are not terrorists it is equally true that most terrorists are Arab."

"this is a war against radical Islam not against emotion or Muslims you are misinformed as to the nature of the enemy and their goals, have you read the Fatwa issued by O.B.L. do you know who Dr. Qutb is?"


Hey to me this is racism sure it may be factual, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't single out one type of person based on their race, creed, color, or nationality. And you sure seem to be enveloped in propaganda.

You are the one who has been subject to propaganda, let me guess you read Al-Jazeera.com don't you?

No I don't read any of the muslim literature or opinions. I remain thankfully ignorant of the groups that you have sighted and linked to and of how to even spell aljezzerra.

What I have stated are things that I have been taught by moderate Muslims who see through the double speak of the Radicals because they have seen exactly what they are and what they have done.

Are you sure that you are not being manipulated by them? Maybe they are the ones who have you so frightened?

For you to call me a bigot is unfounded and I resent it very strongly for you to go into ad-hominen attacks on my credibility is unwarranted and further proof that you have no argument and I consider it as concession to defeat in the debate . . . good day.

Well I resent being accused of wanting the military to fail. I resent being accused of reading Arab propaganda and feeding into it, when clearly it is you who is doing it. I resent that you choose to ignore the rules of warfare, equality and Human rights as governed by international law in the interest of serving what I call hate.

Also I hope you realize that you have just done exactly what I said people like you do.

"Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate"- Yoda

 

[Saboteur]

You don't have to kiss GWB's ass but when you claim that terrorism is only hype then you are aiding and abetting the enemy in that you think you can eliminate the problem by pretending that it doesn't exist.

We're not saying it does not exist. We're saying that we shouldn't give in to the fear terrorism has created and turn this country into a totalitarian police state based on paranoia.

If you don't want to live in a free country I suggest that you move to Cuba.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Article 4
A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[

They are organized and have commanders.

They are organized but are not subject to discipline from their commanders for breaking the laws of war.

They have begun to wear the same kind of clothing especially shoes and it has been reported by interviewed marines that that is one way to indentify them.

They have done no such thing they must wear a clear sign that they are enemy combatants that would be called a uniform.

Last time I saw some actual battle footage the Insurgents had all kinds of weapons out in the open. And if you're talking about road side bombs... Then what is a land mine? Or if you are talking about explosive laden cars.... Then what is a Humvee?

A humvee is clearly Identified and the weapons are out in the open, coalition troops wear uniforms. And I am talking about suicide bombers mixing with the crowds of civilians and blowing themselves up with hidden explosives to specifically kill civilians which is a clear violation of the Geneva Convention and why they are not subject to its protection.

This is the same violation the U.S. has committed.

How so? The U.S. has not violated one single rule of war and infact we have gone out of our way to minimize civilian casualties, the insurgents on the other hand specifically target civilians.

It is obviously not just for civilians.

It is obviously put in the Geneva convention to protect the civilian populace from terrorist scum.

I can't believe I had to go through this word for word with you, you seem much smarter.

I can't believe how completely wrong about everything you are and the laughable nature of your arguments are remarkable.