Do YOU Lie?

[Mongidig]

I value honesty quite highly.

I'm not one to sugar coat things so I'm pretty honest when someone asks be for my opinion.

I have lied to get out of trouble at work on many occasions over my career.

I lie to women a lot because they can't handle the truth.

One thing I can say for certain, Trump does not lie!

 

[upsideguy]

For goodness sake! Keep it simple would you? It's like you people think you're being graded and have to put x amount of words into your post.

Sorry I posted above your pay grade.... but you could have simply read the first sentence OR the last sentence and understood my post. The other three sentences merely developed the argument that lying is not a binary determination.

O

 

[Bark]

Recently a member asked a simple question, "does Trump lie?"

I answered in the affirmative, adding that EVERYONE lies.

So I am asking this question of the Forum, just to see how "honest" our membership is...at least those willing to answer the same simple question...Do YOU lie?

For purposes of this question, and to prevent purposes of evasion, the following constitutes the definition of a "lie." (Not to be confused with lie/lay down).

An assertion that is believed to be false, typically used with the purpose of deceiving someone.

This would include ANY form of an assertion used to deceive, including but not limited to:

"White lie" i.e. a lie with good intentions.

"Black lie" i.e. a lie with bad intentions.

"Neutral lie" i.e. puffery, exaggeration, boasting, etc.

So, have you lied to avoid blame? To avoid responsibility? To make yourself seem better, more important, more knowledgeable? To obtain something you desire? To prevent someone from being hurt, or suffering? To make someone think they are okay, to stay calm, that help will be there soon?

If your fall into any of those categories, then answer yes.

If you are a paragon of virtue, and have never lied in your life, then the answer is no.

There is no "Other," it is a straight either/or question.

BTW, it is an OPEN poll. Let's see who has the courage to answer it.

I have.

Don't forget he also asked if Obama lied.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

Recently a member asked a simple question, "does Trump lie?"

I answered in the affirmative, adding that EVERYONE lies.

So I am asking this question of the Forum, just to see how "honest" our membership is...at least those willing to answer the same simple question...Do YOU lie?

For purposes of this question, and to prevent purposes of evasion, the following constitutes the definition of a "lie." (Not to be confused with lie/lay down).

An assertion that is believed to be false, typically used with the purpose of deceiving someone.

This would include ANY form of an assertion used to deceive, including but not limited to:

"White lie" i.e. a lie with good intentions.

"Black lie" i.e. a lie with bad intentions.

"Neutral lie" i.e. puffery, exaggeration, boasting, etc.

So, have you lied to avoid blame? To avoid responsibility? To make yourself seem better, more important, more knowledgeable? To obtain something you desire? To prevent someone from being hurt, or suffering? To make someone think they are okay, to stay calm, that help will be there soon?

If your fall into any of those categories, then answer yes.

If you are a paragon of virtue, and have never lied in your life, then the answer is no.

There is no "Other," it is a straight either/or question.

BTW, it is an OPEN poll. Let's see who has the courage to answer it.

I have.

This is not an honest question as it attempts to equate things that aren't equal.

It isn't a matter of if one lies. We have all told lies.

It is a matter of impact, what form of profit, how "deep" the lie, context, context, CONTEXT...

Trump has told lies under that have proven to be lies under oath, in court papers. He has breached contracts. He had a frudulent charitable foundation. A fraudulent university. He has been forced by court order to make restitution for his lies. He has made restitution to others in pleas made where he had to admit he was false. He has told lies while holding the highest office in the land while under the oath of that office.

Others may, and likely do, tell lies. Trump has, and continues to, tell LIES!

Practical pragmatic common sense dictates there is a difference between the two.

 

[Mongidig]

Sorry I posted above your pay grade.... but you could have simply read the first sentence OR the last sentence and understood my post. The other three sentences merely developed the argument that lying is not a binary determination.

O

Your admitting you could have limited your response to two sentences.

 

[ModernDiogenes]

The motive of a lie is irrelevant to the consequences of a lie.

You may question motive. I'd tell you it matters but its not important.

Context though decidedly matters. Practical pragmatic common sense dictate it matters. There is no argument against it that is either pragmatic or practical. Thus attempting to do so means common sense has left the room as well.

 

[Cardinal]

Recently a member asked a simple question, "does Trump lie?"

I answered in the affirmative, adding that EVERYONE lies.

So I am asking this question of the Forum, just to see how "honest" our membership is...at least those willing to answer the same simple question...Do YOU lie?

For purposes of this question, and to prevent purposes of evasion, the following constitutes the definition of a "lie." (Not to be confused with lie/lay down).

An assertion that is believed to be false, typically used with the purpose of deceiving someone.

This would include ANY form of an assertion used to deceive, including but not limited to:

"White lie" i.e. a lie with good intentions.

"Black lie" i.e. a lie with bad intentions.

"Neutral lie" i.e. puffery, exaggeration, boasting, etc.

So, have you lied to avoid blame? To avoid responsibility? To make yourself seem better, more important, more knowledgeable? To obtain something you desire? To prevent someone from being hurt, or suffering? To make someone think they are okay, to stay calm, that help will be there soon?

If your fall into any of those categories, then answer yes.

If you are a paragon of virtue, and have never lied in your life, then the answer is no.

There is no "Other," it is a straight either/or question.

BTW, it is an OPEN poll. Let's see who has the courage to answer it.

I have.

If I lied as much as Trump then all that would mean is that Trump and I are equally unsuited to being President.

Your thread isn't the slam dunk defense of Trump that you think it is.

 

[Mach]

Is this the best post for championing false equivalency? An entire thread on it...with a binary poll!

This is too ****ing funny. Right wing media has corrupted reasoning...it's like we're pre-philosophy with some of these people (think before Ancient Greece).

 

[lurchadams]

Recently a member asked a simple question, "does Trump lie?"

I answered in the affirmative, adding that EVERYONE lies.

So I am asking this question of the Forum, just to see how "honest" our membership is...at least those willing to answer the same simple question...Do YOU lie?

For purposes of this question, and to prevent purposes of evasion, the following constitutes the definition of a "lie." (Not to be confused with lie/lay down).

An assertion that is believed to be false, typically used with the purpose of deceiving someone.

This would include ANY form of an assertion used to deceive, including but not limited to:

"White lie" i.e. a lie with good intentions.

"Black lie" i.e. a lie with bad intentions.

"Neutral lie" i.e. puffery, exaggeration, boasting, etc.

So, have you lied to avoid blame? To avoid responsibility? To make yourself seem better, more important, more knowledgeable? To obtain something you desire? To prevent someone from being hurt, or suffering? To make someone think they are okay, to stay calm, that help will be there soon?

If your fall into any of those categories, then answer yes.

If you are a paragon of virtue, and have never lied in your life, then the answer is no.

There is no "Other," it is a straight either/or question.

BTW, it is an OPEN poll. Let's see who has the courage to answer it.

I have.

No, I just exaggerate or I'm just being sarcastic.

By the way, more people have read my posts than any posts in history, both on the internet and written in the sky.... PERIOD!!!

 

[Captain Adverse]

One thing I can say for certain, Trump does not lie!

I agree with everything else you said, and I appreciate the candor.

I have to respond with equal candor about this last point though.

I do support Trump, as is well recorded in this Forum.

However, I have to admit that Trump does lie.

Now I do tend to ignore all of his puffery and self-aggrandizement, as that's always been in his nature.

But on some occasions he has lied when there was no need to. Most recently when he asserted he was being sarcastic with his question on using disinfectant internally. He was asking a sincere question at the time, NOT being sarcastic. I defended that incident on that basis elsewhere in the Forum. But then he had no business saying he was being sarcastic, when he was clearly being sincere at the time.

He has also lied about not paying hush money. I did not hold that against him because that is the purpose of non-disclosure agreements, not to have to admit anything happened. But he should have simply kept his mouth shut.

I still support the man, but I have to remain honest and objective...as far as I can be.

 

[Bullseye]

Someone ought to start a TDS affliction poll. :mrgreen:

Start a thread on Etruscan Artifacts and they'll be a "what about Trump . . ." post on the first page.

 

[cpwill]

Recently a member asked a simple question, "does Trump lie?"

I answered in the affirmative, adding that EVERYONE lies.

So I am asking this question of the Forum, just to see how "honest" our membership is...at least those willing to answer the same simple question...Do YOU lie?

For purposes of this question, and to prevent purposes of evasion, the following constitutes the definition of a "lie." (Not to be confused with lie/lay down).

An assertion that is believed to be false, typically used with the purpose of deceiving someone.

This would include ANY form of an assertion used to deceive, including but not limited to:

"White lie" i.e. a lie with good intentions.

"Black lie" i.e. a lie with bad intentions.

"Neutral lie" i.e. puffery, exaggeration, boasting, etc.

So, have you lied to avoid blame? To avoid responsibility? To make yourself seem better, more important, more knowledgeable? To obtain something you desire? To prevent someone from being hurt, or suffering? To make someone think they are okay, to stay calm, that help will be there soon?

If your fall into any of those categories, then answer yes.

If you are a paragon of virtue, and have never lied in your life, then the answer is no.

There is no "Other," it is a straight either/or question.

BTW, it is an OPEN poll. Let's see who has the courage to answer it.

I have.

There is a material difference between "No, I think you look great in those jeans!" and the kind of blatant, inveterate, falsehoods that Trump spills on matters of national and international importance, and, respectfully, conflating the two seems dishonest as well.

 

[Goshin]

I try my utmost not to lie. Specifically, to never speak that which I know to be untrue.

It wasn't always so. I was in my 30's when I decided to make honestly an iron principle in my life. Before that, I was reluctant to lie but would do so anytime it seemed "necessary".

It is very difficult to be an entirely honest person, to never speak anything but the truth all the time. For one thing, there's the matter of safeguarding your privacy. People will often ask things that are none of their %$#@ business. I had to adopt a close-mouthed posture about personal matters, and be rude when necessary to protect myself from nosy busybodies who just wanted to make trouble.

I feel obliged to speak only truth, but that doesn't mean I have to reveal all to any a-hole who asks.

Tact is another problem. "Does this dress make me look fat?" Ok well I have to speak the truth, but not necessarily the whole truth. "You look nice," if that's the truth, or "I don't think that dress suits you," if no.

There is a line. "Nazis asking if you have Jews hidden in the attic" is an obvious test for when it is more moral to lie than to speak the truth. Similar cases where being entirely honest will harm innocent people, or questions are being asked under duress or threat, may meet the test.

The world as a whole makes it hard to be an honest person. The temptation to lie, or at least to shade the truth or bend it or spin it, is a regular thing. I won't claim that everything that has come out of my mouth for the past 20 years was 100% pure truth... but I try very hard to be as honest as the world will let me be.

 

[swing_voter]

Never.

 

[Goshin]

I agree with everything else you said, and I appreciate the candor.

I have to respond with equal candor about this last point though.

I do support Trump, as is well recorded in this Forum.

However, I have to admit that Trump does lie.

Now I do tend to ignore all of his puffery and self-aggrandizement, as that's always been in his nature.

But on some occasions he has lied when there was no need to. Most recently when he asserted he was being sarcastic with his question on using disinfectant internally. He was asking a sincere question at the time, NOT being sarcastic. I defended that incident on that basis elsewhere in the Forum. But then he had no business saying he was being sarcastic, when he was clearly being sincere at the time.

He has also lied about not paying hush money. I did not hold that against him because that is the purpose of non-disclosure agreements, not to have to admit anything happened. But he should have simply kept his mouth shut.

I still support the man, but I have to remain honest and objective...as far as I can be.

I've never really liked the man. Too much of the NYC big-wheel big-mouth for my taste. Even back when he was wildly popular, I didn't like him.

Politics makes strange bedfellows is a truth though. I voted for Trump because he was the best of a set of bad choices.

Since that time, I've been reasonably pleased with the majority of his actions as President. Not all by any means, but I'm a realist: there will NEVER be a President whose every action meets with my wholehearted approval. We could have done worse though. He's accomplished some important things, or at least aided some important things to happen: the destruction of ISIS/Daesh for one.

I strongly dislike his big-mouthed bloviating style on the whole, even if it is sometimes amusing the way he makes heads explode with his bluntness. I think a good President should be more circumspect in his speech.

But on the whole I could be considered a Trump supporter I suppose. I did vote for him vs Hillary, and I will vote for him vs Biden. I think on the whole he's done an adequate job, and his policy positions are somewhat more in line with my own than Biden's.

I'll push his button in November, but only because he's the less objectionable of a set of bad choices. Such is politics.

As for him lying... all politicians lie. Nature of the beast.

 

[Captain Adverse]

There is a material difference between "No, I think you look great in those jeans!" and the kind of blatant, inveterate, falsehoods that Trump spills on matters of national and international importance, and, respectfully, conflating the two seems dishonest as well.

Not really.

You see the problem is this.

If the MSM, pundits/purveyors of information, and common citizens of whatever political persuasion would report the facts and address them honestly one would have a solid argument whenever Trump tells a lie that has real consequence.

Instead they focus on his typical self-puffery, embellishments, and "positive spins."

If they just focused on real lies that have an effect on his job and the nation, then no one would have much if any any argument from me.

But only someone who had absolutely NO knowledge of Donald Trump prior to his election would list all his self-aggrandizing statements as "material lies."

That's who the man is, a self-promoter, a modern P.T. Barnum, always selling himself and anything he is touting.

IGNORE that, and focus on the material. Then we can agree or argue over it.

Meanwhile, this constant assertion that he is a pathological liar is nothing more than confirmation bias refusing to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Patriotic Voter]

I was taught a lie (noun) is a statement that the speaker/writer knows is completely false, regardless of its intent, whether the listener/reader knows it or not. No matter what anyone else says, I will never accept any other definition of the word except the verb to lie down. If you think you are telling a joke or being sarcastic, you are really just telling a lie, even if your intent is to be funny. So I always take "jokes" and "sarcasm" very seriously and do not tolerate any of them, even if people tell me later they were not meant to be lies. That is just a lie on top of a lie.

Now, if you overestimate or underestimate the number of something and it is obvious you just don't know how many there are, I will gladly accept that. I do the same thing - everyone does.

 

[cpwill]

Not really.

No, it really does seem dishonest to conflate lies of the "oh no honey, I don't think you look like you've put on quarantine weight at all!" nature with lies regarding national policy in matters touching on life and death.

You see the problem is this.

If the MSM, pundits/purveyors of information, and common citizens of whatever political persuasion would report the facts and address them honestly one would have a solid argument whenever Trump tells a lie that has real consequence.

Instead they focus on his typical self-puffery, embellishments, and "positive spins."

Yup. Trump and his Haters in the Media solidly deserve each other.

But - and, this is sort of important - as I keep telling the people trying to spin Biden's sexual assault allegations by pointing to Trump, Just Because Someone Else Does Something Bad, Doesn't Justify You Doing Something Bad. Trump doesn't get a pass on lying simply because many people in the media are willing to be dishonest.

If they just focused on real lies that have an effect on his job and the nation, then no one would have much if any any argument from me.

But only someone who had absolutely NO knowledge of Donald Trump prior to his election would list all his self-aggrandizing statements as "material lies."

That's who the man is, a self-promoter, a modern P.T. Barnum, always selling himself and anything he is touting.

IGNORE that, and focus on the material. Then we can agree or argue over it.

Meanwhile, this constant assertion that he is a pathological liar is nothing more than confirmation bias refusing to sort the wheat from the chaff.

An interesting argument from someone who, just above, was implying that all lies were of a like nature

 

[ecofarm]

But only someone who had absolutely NO knowledge of Donald Trump prior to his election would list all his self-aggrandizing statements as "material lies."

That's who the man is, a self-promoter, a modern P.T. Barnum, always selling himself and anything he is touting.

IGNORE that, and focus on the material. Then we can agree or argue over it.

Feb 28: Hoax

Apr 28: 60,000 dead

 

[Bark]

Voted Yes.

Everything I say is a lie, I lie all the time. :mrgreen:

Is that the truth?

 

[Bullseye]

Not really.

You see the problem is this.

If the MSM, pundits/purveyors of information, and common citizens of whatever political persuasion would report the facts and address them honestly one would have a solid argument whenever Trump tells a lie that has real consequence.

Instead they focus on his typical self-puffery, embellishments, and "positive spins."

If they just focused on real lies that have an effect on his job and the nation, then no one would have much if any any argument from me.

But only someone who had absolutely NO knowledge of Donald Trump prior to his election would list all his self-aggrandizing statements as "material lies."

That's who the man is, a self-promoter, a modern P.T. Barnum, always selling himself and anything he is touting.

IGNORE that, and focus on the material. Then we can agree or argue over it.

Meanwhile, this constant assertion that he is a pathological liar is nothing more than confirmation bias refusing to sort the wheat from the chaff.

You make a really good point. As someone said early on it's important to take Trump "seriously, but not literally". Some on the left thought it was a hanging offense that he embellished on the size of the crowd at his inaugural, for God's sake. Trump is not a politician, he hasn't had the schooling and tutoring of those that have been groomed and guided to speak eloquently and say nothing. He's blunt to the edge of crudeness.

All that said I don't recall a single thing Trump has said that matches the cynical whoopers Obama and his crew spewed to sell the ACA. Those were lies that dramatically affected and afflicted the entire population. Sure Trump made some campaign promises he hasn't delivered on - what President hasn't - but he's delivered on many others.

 

[Captain Adverse]

An interesting argument from someone who, just above, was implying that all lies were of a like nature

..and THAT is where you missed the point.

It is not I that is doing this...it is the MSM, pundits, and opponents of the current Administration who have been doing this.

Conflating puffery and self-aggrandizement with material lies.

I have never denied when Trump has spoken a material lie, or when the media has properly reported on an issue.

If the facts show it is true, and not misinformation/disinformation, then I am the first to acknowledge it. As I did with his "grab them by the" comment, etc..

But the "over 10,000 lies" meme is propaganda.

I am surprised you have not seen this (in fact just go to post #35) in this very thread.

But lying isn't lying if we take all those memes as an example. Most of which were incidents of puffery, and self-aggrandizement that people keep citing as "over 10,000 lies."

That you can't see the difference is on you. :shrug:

 

[gdgyva]

Feb 28: Hoax

Apr 28: 60,000 dead

see now that is a LIE

a good one

go back and quote his HOAX quote....go ahead....and see if he called the pandemic a HOAX....or if he called something else a hoax

do you have the integrity?

 

[cpwill]

..and THAT is where you missed the point.

It is not I that is doing this...it is the MSM, pundits, and opponents of the current Administration who have been doing this.

Conflating puffery and self-aggrandizement with material lies.

Cool. Trump does both, and the first easily bleeds into the other for him. If you are concurring with me, and your OP was meant to deliberately apply an assumption you had already labeled false, then :thumbs:

 

[Waddy]

Do I lie? Of course not. I believe everything I say.