Do you know any Christians?

[Bear5131]

I always think little Mormon girls on street corners love Jesus more then Protestants and catholics

 

[Daisy]

See John 8:58 where Jesus does claim to be God. Compare with Exodus 3:14.

Have you read John in context? Jesus was talking about the oneness of purpose that he shared with his Father, Jehovah God...Jesus later said...

“The Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father.” John 10:38

As for Exodus...

I am he: Lit., “I am.” Greek, e·goʹ ei·mi. Some consider this expression to be an allusion to the Septuagint reading of Ex 3:14 and use it to identify Jesus with God. However, Ex 3:14 uses different wording (e·goʹ ei·mi ho on, “I am The Being; I am The Existing One”) from that used at Joh 4:26. Moreover, the expression e·goʹ ei·mi is used in the Septuagint to render words spoken by Abraham, Eliezer, Jacob, David, and others. (Ge 23:4; 24:34; 30:2; 1Ch 21:17) In the Christian Greek Scriptures, the phrase e·goʹ ei·mi is not limited to the rendering of words expressed by Jesus. The same Greek words are used at Joh 9:9 in recording a reply by a man whom Jesus had cured. They simply convey the message: “It is I.” These words are also used by the angel Gabriel as well as by Peter, Paul, and others. (Lu 1:19; Ac 10:21; 22:3) Obviously, these statements are not references to Ex 3:14. A comparison of the parallel accounts in the synoptic Gospels shows that the phrase e·goʹ ei·mi found at Mr 13:6 and Lu 21:8 (“I am he”) is a shorter way of expressing the more complete thought found at Mt 24:5, which is rendered “I am the Christ.”

I am he, the one speaking to you: This is apparently the first time that Jesus openly identifies himself as the Messiah, or the Christ. He does so to a woman who is not even a Jew but a Samaritan. (Joh 4:9, 25) Most Jews had disdain for and refused to greet Samaritans, and many Jewish men looked down on women. Jesus later dignified other women in a similar way, granting them the privilege of being the first witnesses of his resurrection.—Mt 28:9, 10.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001070672?q=Exodus+3:14&p=sen

 

[The Baron]

Have you read John in context? Jesus was talking about the oneness of purpose that he shared with his Father, Jehovah God...Jesus later said...

“The Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father.” John 10:38

JW's don't believe in the Trinity either. Right?

As for Exodus...

I am he: Lit., “I am.” Greek, e·goʹ ei·mi. Some consider this expression to be an allusion to the Septuagint reading of Ex 3:14 and use it to identify Jesus with God. However, Ex 3:14 uses different wording (e·goʹ ei·mi ho on, “I am The Being; I am The Existing One”) from that used at Joh 4:26.

I've no problem with this.

Moreover, the expression e·goʹ ei·mi is used in the Septuagint to render words spoken by Abraham, Eliezer, Jacob, David, and others. (Ge 23:4; 24:34; 30:2; 1Ch 21:17) In the Christian Greek Scriptures, the phrase e·goʹ ei·mi is not limited to the rendering of words expressed by Jesus. The same Greek words are used at Joh 9:9 in recording a reply by a man whom Jesus had cured. They simply convey the message: “It is I.” These words are also used by the angel Gabriel as well as by Peter, Paul, and others. (Lu 1:19; Ac 10:21; 22:3) Obviously, these statements are not references to Ex 3:14. A comparison of the parallel accounts in the synoptic Gospels shows that the phrase e·goʹ ei·mi found at Mr 13:6 and Lu 21:8 (“I am he”) is a shorter way of expressing the more complete thought found at Mt 24:5, which is rendered “I am the Christ.”

I am he, the one speaking to you: This is apparently the first time that Jesus openly identifies himself as the Messiah, or the Christ. He does so to a woman who is not even a Jew but a Samaritan. (Joh 4:9, 25) Most Jews had disdain for and refused to greet Samaritans, and many Jewish men looked down on women. Jesus later dignified other women in a similar way, granting them the privilege of being the first witnesses of his resurrection.—Mt 28:9, 10.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001070672?q=Exodus+3:14&p=sen

All of this ignores John 8:59 which states that after saying "I AM" the people picked-up stones to kill him for blasphemy because they realized He was claiming to be the deity referenced in Exodus 3:14.

The folks who were actually there clearly understood Jesus' meaning.

 

[Daisy]

JW's don't believe in the Trinity either. Right?

Correct...

John 8:59

John 8:58​

• I have been: The opposing Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming that he had “seen Abraham,” although, as they said, Jesus was “not yet 50 years old.” (Joh 8:57) Jesus’ response was to tell them about his prehuman existence as a mighty spirit creature in heaven before Abraham was born. Some claim that this verse identifies Jesus with God. They argue that the Greek expression used here, e·goʹ ei·miʹ (rendered “I am” in some Bibles), is an allusion to the Septuagint rendering of Ex 3:14 and that both verses should be rendered the same way. (See study note on Joh 4:26.) In this context, however, the action expressed by the Greek verb ei·miʹ started “before Abraham came into existence” and was still in progress. It is therefore properly translated “I have been” rather than “I am,” and a number of ancient and modern translations use wording similar to “I have been.” In fact, at Joh 14:9, the same form of the Greek verb ei·miʹ is used to render Jesus’ words: “Even after I have been with you men for such a long time, Philip, have you not come to know me?” Most translations use a similar wording, showing that depending on context there is no valid grammatical objection to rendering ei·miʹ as “have been.” (Other examples of rendering a present tense Greek verb using a present perfect tense verb are found at Lu 2:48; 13:7; 15:29; Joh 15:27; Ac 15:21; 2Co 12:19; 1Jo 3:8.) Also, Jesus’ reasoning recorded at Joh 8:54, 55 shows that he was not trying to portray himself as being the same person as his Father.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/43/8#s=58&study=discover

 

[The Baron]

Correct...

Thanks.

John 8:58​

• I have been: The opposing Jews wanted to stone Jesus for claiming that he had “seen Abraham,” although, as they said, Jesus was “not yet 50 years old.” (Joh 8:57) Jesus’ response was to tell them about his prehuman existence as a mighty spirit creature in heaven before Abraham was born. Some claim that this verse identifies Jesus with God. They argue that the Greek expression used here, e·goʹ ei·miʹ (rendered “I am” in some Bibles), is an allusion to the Septuagint rendering of Ex 3:14 and that both verses should be rendered the same way. (See study note on Joh 4:26.) In this context, however, the action expressed by the Greek verb ei·miʹ started “before Abraham came into existence” and was still in progress. It is therefore properly translated “I have been” rather than “I am,” and a number of ancient and modern translations use wording similar to “I have been.” In fact, at Joh 14:9, the same form of the Greek verb ei·miʹ is used to render Jesus’ words: “Even after I have been with you men for such a long time, Philip, have you not come to know me?” Most translations use a similar wording, showing that depending on context there is no valid grammatical objection to rendering ei·miʹ as “have been.” (Other examples of rendering a present tense Greek verb using a present perfect tense verb are found at Lu 2:48; 13:7; 15:29; Joh 15:27; Ac 15:21; 2Co 12:19; 1Jo 3:8.) Also, Jesus’ reasoning recorded at Joh 8:54, 55 shows that he was not trying to portray himself as being the same person as his Father.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/43/8#s=58&study=discover

I didn't claim to see Abraham. He simply stated that "Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

It also ignores the fact that they only tried to stone him AFTER He exclaimed "I Am".

 

[Daisy]

Thanks.

I didn't claim to see Abraham. He simply stated that "Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

It also ignores the fact that they only tried to stone him AFTER He exclaimed "I Am".

This is what Jesus was saying...

Jesus now refers back to the example of their faithful forefather: “Abraham your father rejoiced greatly at the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced.” Yes, believing God’s promise, Abraham looked forward to the arrival of the Messiah. “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” the Jews respond in disbelief. Jesus answers: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” He is referring to his prehuman existence as a mighty spirit in heaven.—John 8:56-58.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014799#h=14:0-15:0

 

[The Baron]

This is what Jesus was saying...

...Jesus answers: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” He is referring to his prehuman existence as a mighty spirit in heaven.—John 8:56-58.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102014799#h=14:0-15:0

Incorrect. He states, "I Am" or, more literally, "ego eimi".

That's why the Jews wanted to stone Him IMMEDIATELY following this statement.

 

[Daisy]

Incorrect. He states, "I Am" or, more literally, "ego eimi".

That's why the Jews wanted to stone Him IMMEDIATELY following this statement.

And he could not have meant he was Jehovah because that is in direct contradiction to many other scriptures, so he had to have meant "I have been"...Jesus was NOT referring to Exodus 3:14...

God’s reply in Hebrew was: ʼEh·yehʹ ʼAsherʹ ʼEh·yehʹ. Some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM.” However, it is to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yahʹ, from which the word ʼEh·yehʹ is drawn, does not mean simply “be.” Rather, it means “become,” or “prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others. Therefore, the New World Translation properly renders the above Hebrew expression as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” Jehovah thereafter added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to you.’”—Ex 3:14, ftn.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391

 

[Slartibartfast]

Not just people that say the believe in Jesus but actually walk the walk day in and day out?

I try my best to do that whole walk the walk thing as do many Christians that I know in real life.

 

[The Baron]

And he could not have meant he was Jehovah because that is in direct contradiction to many other scriptures...

No. It's very consistent with Scripture.

...so he had to have meant "I have been"...Jesus was NOT referring to Exodus 3:14...

And ignores what the Scriptures actually saw and substantiated by textual criticism.

 

[Daisy]

John 8:58:

RS reads: “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [Greek, e·goʹ ei·miʹ].’” (NE, KJ, TEV, JB, NAB all read “I am,” some even using capital letters to convey the idea of a title. Thus they endeavor to connect the expression with Exodus 3:14, where, according to their rendering, God refers to himself by the title “I Am.”) However, in NW the latter part of John 8:58 reads: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” (The same idea is conveyed by the wording in AT, Mo, CBW, and SE.)

Which rendering agrees with the context? The question of the Jews (verse 57) to which Jesus was replying had to do with age, not identity. Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his existence. Interestingly, no effort is ever made to apply e·goʹ ei·miʹ as a title to the holy spirit.

Says A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, by A. T. Robertson: “The verb [ei·miʹ] . . . Sometimes it does express existence as a predicate like any other verb, as in [e·goʹ ei·miʹ] (Jo. 8:58).”—Nashville, Tenn.; 1934, p. 394.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391

 

[Daisy]

No. It's very consistent with Scripture.

And ignores what the Scriptures actually saw and substantiated by textual criticism.

I disagree...

 

[The Baron]

I disagree...

Then you disagree with the Scripture and scholars.

I did some work years ago showing how even the JW Bible shows the deity of Christ. I'll look for it and share it in another thread.

 

[Daisy]

Then you disagree with the Scripture and scholars.

I did some work years ago showing how even the JW Bible shows the deity of Christ. I'll look for it and share it in another thread.

I've heard it all before...I used to believe in the trinity, among other doctrines, that I now know are false...thank you for the respectful exchange though...a rarity around here usually...

 

[The Baron]

I've heard it all before...I used to believe in the trinity, among other doctrines, that I now know are false...thank you for the respectful exchange though...a rarity around here usually...

It is. And frankly, if we agreed none of this would be interesting.

 

[Rumpel]

For the most part, nobody walks the walk day in and day out - perhaps with the exception of a relative handful of ascetics on the planet, most of which would not even identify as christian.

Those ascetics are just revolting and conceited Pharisees.

 

[Rumpel]

I always think little Mormon girls on street corners love Jesus more then Protestants and catholics

Who told you so?

 

[Rumpel]

What are "Christians" for you?

Only born-again fundamentals?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

 

[Gordy327]

View attachment 67423309

I would "politely" slam the door in the face of anyone trying to peddle their religious bs at my home. But if were a couple of scientifically minded ones wanting to discuss scientific "truth " I would invite them in and we'd discuss evolution or the Big Bang over a cup of coffee.

 

[HangLow]

View attachment 67423309​

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[weaver2]

I've heard it all before...I used to believe in the trinity, among other doctrines, that I now know are false...thank you for the respectful exchange though...a rarity around here usually...

We treat events and ideas in religion as factoids that must be believed in order to be a Christian ..... Why?

We don't have to believe that God created the world and man in 6 days. We can believe in science and still revel in the absolute glory of the language of the creation. " And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. ..... And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
The magnificance of creation is captured in Genesis. Why reduce something so majestic into a little required factoid to prove one is Christian.

Noah's ark is a delightful fiction. It almost certainly entertained kids around a campfire 5000 years ago. Buy or makef or your own kids an ark and animals as parents have for generations. Stand in relief, like Noah, at the rainbow singaling the end of a violent storm in the sky or in your life.

Enjoy Mary's hysterical virginity as the Church's really lame answer to some obstreperous peasant asking difficult questions about Jesus' purity and avoidance of purgatory if sex was sin and all children were born into original sin.

The Resurection. Sometimes the Church got their myth's right. Enjoy the marvelous symbolism. It's entirely valid without being a fact.

Transsubstantiation..... so pagan...so very pagan. Take the bread and the wine and know you are part of those hundreds of thousands of years of grizzley ritual sacrifice.

The trinity gives us the Holy Ghost which is necessary to explain Pentecost. The Pentecost was necessary to explain why the diciples went out and preached about Jesus' belief that man should be one with God. Unravel the Trinity that gave us the agony of El Greco's Trinity but know it for what it is, a substutite for the very popular Jewish holiday, Shavuot, when one renewed the Noahic covenent of man with God.

Understand how this religion is part of your culture; how it anchores you, defines you and assures your right to be part of the world, but don't reduce it to facts that drain all meaning out of religion. The importance of religion is in the truth of its symbolism not in facts.

 

[LittleNipper]

An intelligent Episcopal priest once said that when you don't act intelligently you are not following God plan for mankind. He gave us brains for a reason and we are expected to use them.

Yes I know people that act intelligently. They are not, however, fundamental ideologues, Bible thumpers, tongue-talkers, prosperity evangelicals, Mariologists, or anti-abortion fanatics.

1 Corinthians 1:18-27
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

 

[LittleNipper]

What are "Christians" for you?

Only born-again fundamentals?

JESUS clearly states, "Ye must be born again." and HE even goes further to explain exactly what HE meant. John 3 1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council.2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.7You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.'8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." 22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized.24(This was before John was put in prison.)25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing.26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan--the one you testified about--well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."27To this John replied, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven.28You yourselves can testify that I said, `I am not the Christ but am sent ahead of him.'29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete.30He must become greater; I must become less.31"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all.32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.33The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful.34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

 

[Helix]

Yes, I have known people like that.