I thought "civility is a must" here. And who do you think is a "paid shill" in the environment subforum?
I don't think anyone detests Christians who hold Christian beliefs, I think people detest Christians who act like dicks. Those pizza parlor owners acted like dicks. It wouldn't have mattered what their justification for their stupidity might have been, the reaction would have been largely the same.
Believe it or not, even as a publicly avowed atheist I don't actually begrudge the creation of a "safe room" for Christians. It doesn't bother me and there's no reason why it should. If fellow posters are being rude to the point that discussion on a topic becomes untenable, then I support extraordinary measures in venues such as this one that bring civility back to the forum. A great example of where I think "martial law" should be applied, as in the I.P. forum, is the environment subforum where paid shills have drowned out the discussion so that it's effectively become a demilitarized zone, but I'm starting to rant, so back on topic. Point being, the
The problem is you're working off a definition of discrimination that has zero bearing on this topic. Yes, there is "discriminating taste," such as I prefer that cake over the other one, but that has nothing to do with things like workplace discrimination, or discriminating against customers based on their religion/ethnicity/etc., which has specific parameters [mostly] understood in law. You're confusing the definition of discrimination with a social and legal one.
Civility should be a must everywhere.
The religion forum is more than just a forum where there can't be any discrimination. It's a forum where you are not allowed to post beliefs other a literal interpretation of scripture.
And, I'd really like to hear the answer to that second question.
Conservative Christians are the only religious/cultural group whom it is permissible to mock publicly. I'm agnostic, but I know unfair treatment when I see it.
And, I'd really like to hear the answer to that second question.
While I support the creation of a safe room for religious people, I do have a big, big problem with religious threads moved into the damn religion forum after the fact. That is absolutely not cool.
I disagree that they acted like "dicks". All they said was they wouldn't serve pizza at a hypothetical gay wedding. That isn't exactly a horrific comment. And in response they got death threats. If death threats are an expected response to people voicing their opinions, this country is in trouble.
They are treated that way for the same reason the conspiracy theorists are treated that way and the other crazies, etc. It's because these people are making claims that they are completely and totally unable to support or defend or provide evidence for and they SHOULD BE TREATED THAT WAY! God is a fairy tale for adults who ought to know better. It's just pathetic that so many people don't. That you find critical thinking and rational evaluation somehow discriminatory is very telling.
Which is a dickish position, no different than if they had said they wouldn't provide pizza at a hypothetical black wedding. Some views, no matter what your justification, are not acceptable in modern society. While I certainly don't think anyone, ever, ought to get death threats for anything, let's be honest, most serious death threats come from the religious. Even for those who aren't going to shoot you, they still think heretics deserve to burn forever in eternal hellfire. We also have to remember that this is the Internet and like it or not, there are trolls and anyone who takes trolls seriously, which I assume virtually all of the threats came from trolls, probably ought to log off permanently.
It's worth about as much as pointing to Google. It's a lazy response for someone who has no real sources but can't be honest about it. I trust you're not surprised.
Funny, I was asked for proof and you just admitted here that doing anything that most normal people do to get that proof to you is "lazy" and "can't be honest". Guess that shows that you didn't even have any intention of taking any sort of link I provided as proof of discrimination as actual proof. You were ready and quite willing to dismiss it out of ignorance.
What IS discriminatory is actively trying to drown them out of any discussion regarding their beliefs. Just as it was discriminatory for Christians to try and drown out the LGBT community when the LGBT community was asking for equal Rights.
Funny, I was asked for proof and you just admitted here that doing anything that most normal people do to get that proof to you is "lazy" and "can't be honest". Guess that shows that you didn't even have any intention of taking any sort of link I provided as proof of discrimination as actual proof. You were ready and quite willing to dismiss it out of ignorance.
By "pointing to google" I'm pretty sure he meant linking to the home google search page. Obviously we would consider any links to relevant stories. It's a silly challenge in any case and I wouldn't have posited it myself: there are 300,000,000 people in the United States so obviously if you google hard enough you're going to find some instance of a business owner discriminating against Christian employees, or a restaurant turning away Christian people. Three hundred million people is a pretty large pool for finding awful humans. The point though is whether such discrimination is systematic in any way or, god forbid, actually condoned by the government.
Going back to the other point about it being silly to throw out the challenge of "find just one case," interestingly enough nobody could actually come up with a single example of businesses discriminating against Christian customers. As a result, Conservatives were "forced" to manufacture outrageous troll videos depicting people going into Muslim bakeries asking for crap like "Muhammed sucks" or some such nonsense on their cakes.
Point is, Christians don't suffer discrimination, and in fact I'm almost inclined to say that they've been so perfectly insulated by their majority status that a lot of them honestly don't even know what it is. So when they face a public backlash for their practice of discrimination or wanting people to live by Christian morals, they're so baffled by the challenge to their majority reach that they don't even have a word for it, so they grasp for the first one at hand and call it "discrimination."
You were asked for proof. You did not provide proof. You did not point to anything specific. You posted a general link and pretty much said "go look for it yourself". That is not proof. That is wimping out.
You might be right about the google home page. But even then, its still a valid resource. Doing such is like saying "here! pick your choice, there's lots of choices to pick from!".
Why exactly did they have to manufacture such video's in the first place? Is it because there's more focus on the negative aspects of Christians in this particular area than of Muslims? If so...why is that? Because the videos, even if "forced" to be made did show exactly the same things that Christians were being accused of. Yet there was no outcry about that.
So because its not "systemic" in your opinion then its ok to ignore the, in your opinion, "minor" instances of discrimination? Why?
And do you realize that you just admitted that there is indeed discrimination going on towards Christians?
No, I never said to "go look for it yourself". As evidenced by the posts following that one.
Christians are socially discriminated against, Try being a younger Christian in today's generation. Everyone likes to dog and attack people who actually live out their faith. Evangelicals are a mocked and socially persecuted minority. One could argue the lawsuits where Christians were forced to cater to things against their beliefs (gay bakery/photo lawsuits) is also discrimination and intolerance.
Under the law, Christians are allowed to practice their religion precisely as much as everyone else is. If anyone is denying Christians rights disproportionately to other faiths/non-faiths, then they are practicing discrimination and breaking the law.
You might be correct if only comparing Christianity to treatment of other theistic religions, however regarding religious practice as a whole including Christianity there is discrimination. If you do not think it to be so, look up the list of cases at the aclj, or do a general google search. Easy enough to determine. If you only define discrimination as "compared to" rather than against constitutional religious liberty, I give you secularism as the preferred religion.
There is a legal approach to discrimination that everybody falls under. If religion is a protected class (and it is) then everybody (except private clubs and churches) is barred from discriminating against people because of their faith.
Yet it consistently happens, usually with the blessing of more liberal courts. Again check the ACLJ list of cases. Discrimination exists despite the protected status, just as blacks undergo discrimination despite their protected status. Just the other day Father Jonathan Morris was spit on during a gay rights celebration for merely being present wearing the daily attire of a Catholic priest.
I didn't say against being a douchebag, I said they wanted to be douchebags without consequence. They want to act like asshats and not have anyone disagree with them or take them to task for it. When they are called idiots for acting like idiots, they whine and pretend to be discriminated against. No, they brought it on themselves, all they have to do is stop acting like morons. There aren't government consequences for being stupid, only for breaking the law. There are social consequences though.
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