Do We Need National Health Care?

[Calm2Chaos]

You're out of pocket expense is so low cause the government picks up part of the tab. Which you pay for in taxes. It will be cheaper person by about half. Which means less taxes to cover it and no out of pocket expenses. The numbers are there. No spinning. So why is it so much cheaper per person in NHC if they're actually paying more? That makes no sense.

What I am saying is if there are provinces in Canada paying upwards of 40%+ in taxable income. A large bulk of that is for the UHC. I pay 30% andwith my out of pocket expenses it might MIGHT go to 32%. These are the numbers I am using. So if you telling me that my taxable income will not go above 32% then maybe I will reconsider the idea. BUt nothing I have read or seen points to that.

I didn't say it wasn't there. I said it was exaggerated.

NOt by much by the looks of it.

Hello? France just did a face transplant for the first time EVER! They have a lot of medicines coming out as well. The money won't dry up. Drug companies are still private. Nobody's compelling them to trade with the NHC governments. They wouldn't do it if it wasn't in there best interest.

I stand by my statement.. A face transplant doesn't a medical R&D make...lol With an NHC drugs and prescriptions costs are regulated. This means there will be less money for the research. Why are the drug companies going to spend a billion dollars to develop a new drug when it's going to take2-3-4-5 times as long to recoup there costs?

Doctors still make plenty of money. NHC countries still have doctors.

Canadian doctors don't make crap, less then 100,000 a year. Auto workers are making more then doctors are. Whats the encetive to go deep in debt and work long hours if your not going to get paid. Unless of course there all just huge humanitarians. Docotor shortage is also a problem there facing in canada, the money is gone so the interest is fading

 

[taxedout]

Kelzie,


I think there is an important question that you haven't answered.
If the total insurance reimbursement from private and governmnet sources is cut in half, who gets the pay cut ?

 

[Indy]

Touche. Sorry, didn't mean to sound like a pompous *** - didn't mean any disrespect. I wasn't suggesting "out of the blue" that you move to Canada - it was more a reference to the fact that your wife is from there. What made you choose to live in the states (where I assume you're from) instead of living where your wife is from...? EXAMPLE: my sister is from Ohio & her husband is from South Carolina - they chose to live in Ohio after he retired from the military. Two basic reason for this choice - economics & family (his family isn't that close while our family is).

Oh okay, sorry for getting so hostile but that is an argument that I see way too often.

We are living here 1 because we met in Arizona where I had lived all my life 2 because I don't have the propper documentation to live in canada (I.e. a work visa or citizenship) 3 I'm not possative but I don't know if canada has too big of an engineering workforce at least not compared to the US so I probably wouldn't be able to find a job there.

My wife is here because the Audiology field (at least the Doctorate program) is brand new and I don't believe that Canada has started up too many programs yet to train their students.

 

[Indy]

Kelzie,


I think there is an important question that you haven't answered.
If the total insurance reimbursement from private and governmnet sources is cut in half, who gets the pay cut ?

I don't believe that the reimbursement is cut in half, just what the insurance companies are charging. I know for a fact that the profits on the insurance companies is HUGE (at leaste in health care). The people who should be getting a pay cut should definitely be them... if not have their field totally iliminated which is what I would hope would happen save for a few companies that could offer a superior plan to those who could afford to pay a large premium.

My understanding from my wife is this: The insurance companies are charging their customers as if they were paying the doctors full price and reimberssing them fully, but this is not the case. In fact 80% of the premiums stay with the insurance companies who just pocket the funds. If you think about it, the insurance companies can't even use the illegal immagrant excuse for their high prices because the immigrants aren't even their customers so they aren't paying out anything for them. The reality is that they are an industry that has a large customer base but doesn't have any real product. Its all a paper game. Cutting out that industry itself would get rid of the middle man and thus save money.

 

[Cookie Parker]

The words "not just no, but HELL NO " come to mind.

Questions for the Pro-Universal Health Care crowd:

Where, specifically, is the federal government granted the power to create any legislation regarding health care?
(Hint: you need to cite the US Constitution)

Why do people think that the government should take care of everyone, all the time, regarding everything?

Why do people think that I, personally, am responsible for providing health care to complete strangers?

How do complete strangers have a right to MY money?

Goobieman

And yet you don't have a problem with the billions of dollars in welfare your government (i.e. your taxes) gives to corporations? Locate that right in the constitution for me.

I think we need jobs and we need employers to contribute to the healthcare costs of its employees. Since we are slimming our job base to service industry part-time positions, we need the government to assist families in healthcare. It serves our nation to have a health care system in place to keep Americans healthy. That being said, i don't think you should be able to run to the ER with a cold. I think sensible regulations should be put into place and sliding fee scale deductibles, as well

 

[ptsdkid]

The words "not just no, but HELL NO " come to 

Goobieman

And yet you don't have a problem with the billions of dollars in welfare your government (i.e. your taxes) gives to corporations?    Locate that right in the constitution for me.

I think we need jobs and we need employers to contribute to the healthcare costs of its employees.  Since we are slimming our job base to service industry part-time positions, we need the government to assist families in healthcare.  It serves our nation to have a health care system in place to keep Americans healthy.  That being said, i don't think you should be able to run to the ER with a cold.  I think sensible regulations should be put into place and sliding fee scale deductibles, as well[/QUOTE]


***Where is it that billions of tax monies are going to corporations? How so? I cannot address the rest of your response until I get some specific answers to my question.

 

[BWG]

You know everybody is arguing this or that about Canada's health plan and that's fine, ya gotta have a base to debate with, but there hasn't been a plan proposed for the U.S. right now. We see the faults of Canada's plan and Germany's and France's and so on. So what we should do is model a plan, learning from others plans, and refine and polish a system to meet our needs. Then the rest of the world will be clamoring to go to America's plan. You know with 300 million people not everyone's going to be happy, but I believe we have to do something. 47 million people without medical coverage isn't right and more and more are losing their coverage, it's getting too expensive for the regular Joe to afford. Some say that medical coverage isn't a right, well you may be correct, in that it isn't a right, but in the world's richest country it should be.

Some are complaining about paying for others (in a NHC plan everyone that works would make some sort of contribution), and then there are those that use the emergency room for their needs (and don't or can't pay), that is the most expensive medical care you can get. If the hospitals aren't paid for those services they have to make it up somewhere and that comes from us in the form of higher charges and in turn higher insurance premiums.

Then there is the argument of the government not being efficient. Private business is worse when they know they can pass the cost on to us. Ever see a 'cost plus' contract come in under budget?


Here are the Administrative expenses for 2004

For Medicare, the Hospital Insurance (HI) Trust Fund pays for inpatient hospital and related care.

HI Administrative expenses 2004 - 1.8%


The Supplementary Medical Insurance (SMI) Trust Fund is composed of Part B, which pays for physician and outpatient services, and effective in 2004, Part D, which provides a prescription drug benefit that begins in 2006.

SMI Administrative expenses 2004 - 2.1%

Source


It's gonna happen, either the people are going to hammer their representatives that something has to be done or corporate America is going to say, 'enough', we can't afford it anymore.

 

[jfuh]

OK - since I only occasionally come to this forum I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. :smile:

But, there are so many unanswered questions because you gave dollar amounts (6K & 3K). We don't know the percent either of those numbers are compared to their rective incomes or the percentage of tax on those incomes to pay for such a program.

I did search a few things - found that Canadians are taxed at an average of 35% while Americans are taxed at an average of 30% - this is federal income tax alone. The article didn't include state or province taxes or sales taxes to include a national sales tax. Plus the many other taxes we pay (estate, death, property, as well as taxes hidden within the price of certain products like gas & cigarettes). Sorry I don't recall the site where I found this but a simple Yahoo search should turn up the same basic stuff. I also go to Wikipedia for info too. So, it may have been there. Plus other info I found wasn't for the same year in each country so that can't really be reliable.

I obviously don't like the idea of a national healthcare system. I don't believe our sytem is broke. Although it's certainly far from perfect as I suspect any system would be.

In Taiwan, we're Taxed a 30% income tax. That's it. No state tax, no sales tax. We also have a brilliant national health care system.
The economy is not doing too well though, but that's a political issue not economic one.

 

[stsburns]

Do you think I really want to put my health in the care of our government. I mean the government can't even balanace a budget, why should we let health care take funding cuts?

 

[jfuh]

Do you think I really want to put my health in the care of our government. I mean the government can't even balanace a budget, why should we let health care take funding cuts?

Aie, sad but true.

 

[alphamale]

In Taiwan, we're Taxed a 30% income tax. That's it. No state tax, no sales tax. We also have a brilliant national health care system.
The economy is not doing too well though, but that's a political issue not economic one.

The U.S. isn't a regimented asian anthill, where everyone follows Confucian ethics. We have millions of people coming over the border, something that would never be tolerated in taiwan, but continues here because of cowardly power-hungry politicians and slimey business interests. We have the black underclass which puts a huge drain on our system because of their social pathologies. We have drug companies which cannot recoup the costs of developing medecines in foreign countries, which have price limits, so the costs are cost-shifted onto americans. On and on.

Don't make stupid comparisons.

 

[jfuh]

The U.S. isn't a regimented asian anthill, where everyone follows Confucian ethics. We have millions of people coming over the border, something that would never be tolerated in taiwan, but continues here because of cowardly power-hungry politicians and slimey business interests. We have the black underclass which puts a huge drain on our system because of their social pathologies. We have drug companies which cannot recoup the costs of developing medecines in foreign countries, which have price limits, so the costs are cost-shifted onto americans. On and on.

Don't make stupid comparisons.

:no:
Asian Anthill? Care to elaborate on this statement?

Yes it's those negro underclass isn't it? Damn those Chico's overwhelming the border. It's everyone else at fault isn't it?
That's total BS.

 

[alphamale]

:no:
Asian Anthill? Care to elaborate on this statement?

Asian society is much more disciplined, where people do what is expect of them, go along with the rules, and support hierarchies (e.g., the "Six Relationships" of Confucianism).

Yes it's those negro underclass isn't it?

That's right. care to debate the issue?

Damn those Chico's overwhelming the border.

Uh, "Chicos"??? :roll:

 

[Calm2Chaos]

The words "not just no, but HELL NO " come to mind.

Questions for the Pro-Universal Health Care crowd:

Where, specifically, is the federal government granted the power to create any legislation regarding health care?
(Hint: you need to cite the US Constitution)

Why do people think that the government should take care of everyone, all the time, regarding everything?

Why do people think that I, personally, am responsible for providing health care to complete strangers?

How do complete strangers have a right to MY money?

Goobieman

And yet you don't have a problem with the billions of dollars in welfare your government (i.e. your taxes) gives to corporations? Locate that right in the constitution for me.

I think we need jobs and we need employers to contribute to the healthcare costs of its employees. Since we are slimming our job base to service industry part-time positions, we need the government to assist families in healthcare. It serves our nation to have a health care system in place to keep Americans healthy. That being said, i don't think you should be able to run to the ER with a cold. I think sensible regulations should be put into place and sliding fee scale deductibles, as well

YA ... sensible regulations and government always go hand in had...*Sarcasim*

 

[Calm2Chaos]

:no:
Asian Anthill? Care to elaborate on this statement?

Yes it's those negro underclass isn't it? Damn those Chico's overwhelming the border. It's everyone else at fault isn't it?
That's total BS.

Are you honestly going to make a comparison to an island of 22,000,000 to a land mass with almost 300,000,000? I wish there wasa similar situation that we could compare to the US to see how UHC worked. BUt until then it just ain't worth what i would be giving up

 

[kmhowe72]

so my daughter with a 57 degree curve of the spine , we should let her suffer because because my husband's health insurence won't cover her needs? and this is a two year old.

 

[Indy]

Are you honestly going to make a comparison to an island of 22,000,000 to a land mass with almost 300,000,000? I wish there wasa similar situation that we could compare to the US to see how UHC worked. BUt until then it just ain't worth what i would be giving up

Well that isn't exactly a fair comment. I'm not 100% sure but how many countries out there CAN compete with us population and land mass wise? China, Russia, India... isn't that about it? Maybe they are waiting for us to do the very same thing? Why don't we lead rather than follow.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

so my daughter with a 57 degree curve of the spine , we should let her suffer because because my husband's health insurence won't cover her needs? and this is a two year old.

Can't answer that question for ya. Try medicare .. or medicade or some other avenue or options. The point I am trying to make is the fact I see UHC hurting more people then it helps. And the ones that are going to eat the majority of the brunt are going to be middle class.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Well that isn't exactly a fair comment. I'm not 100% sure but how many countries out there CAN compete with us population and land mass wise? China, Russia, India... isn't that about it? Maybe they are waiting for us to do the very same thing? Why don't we lead rather than follow.

I am not really talking about land mass I was just making a distinction between a continent and an island. I am talking about population. industrialization, technology, economy, Global responsibilities etc... etc... You can't compare an island of 22,000,000 with a bad economy and no global responsibilities (other then no being eaten by China), limited diversity and probably 0 immigration to the US....Not exactly sure what we would be leading to ... Other then less money.. and I don't think I want to get to that destination anytime soon

 

[The Mark]

I've seen many arguments for and against NHC on this thread so far, but most of those arguments start with saying that it is a good or bad idea and then give proof in the form of comparisons to other countries.

IMO, it is not possible to compare the US with another country and say that because it worked in said other country (or didn't) it will (or will not) work in the US.

To even come close to finding out either way if NHC would work in this country, it would seem that one must take the following information and use it to try and guess if it would work.

The current cost of health care.

The cost of health care (estimated) after NHC is implemented.

How many (if any) doctors would change jobs or never go into the field in the first place if so many job opportunities were cut off (if they would be, which seems likely, as paying doctors is one of the major costs of health care).

How much money would be lost or misused (if any) if health care was run by a bureaucracy.

What, if any, affect NHC would have on the developments coming out of drug companies.

What, if any, affect NHC would have on the tax rate here in the US.

What, if any, affect NHC would have on the monies spent or received from or to other countries with whom we trade medical stuffs.

What, if any, affect NHC would have on the monies entering this country from other countries when people come here to take advantage of our higher quality medical system.

What, if any, affect NHC would have..........well, as you can see, I could go on for quite a while, but I have limited time atm, so I’m just going to stop here for now.

Everyone feel free to add other things that NHC might have an effect on.

 

[taxedout]

How many (if any) doctors would change jobs or never go into the field in the first place if so many job opportunities were cut off (if they would be, which seems likely, as paying doctors is one of the major costs of health care).

Actually, hospital and facillity fees, supplies, medications and medical equipment/technology compose a MUCH larger protion of the costs.

 

[Indy]

How many (if any) doctors would change jobs or never go into the field in the first place if so many job opportunities were cut off (if they would be, which seems likely, as paying doctors is one of the major costs of health care).

How much money would be lost or misused (if any) if health care was run by a bureaucracy.

First let me just agree with you that we can't really compare the NHC system of another country and apply it to this one in terms of whether it would work or not. But I did have issues with these two questions you asked (and your comments made in the parentheses).

1. It is not likely that doctors would leave the field or not enter in the first place and I just invite you to look at my above posts concerning the possible increase in their salaries. It is MUCH easier to get reimbersed from medicade than it is from insurance companies according to my wife and there is about a 6-12 month wait that doctors go through when trying to get reimbersed from insurance companies plust WAY MORE red tape that you have to go through.

2. I always thought that the gov't was set up like a non-profit organization where they are not supposed to have a profit when all is said and done. Granted we have a debt to pay off but its not like we are giving the surplus to a single person who ownes it or anything, but this IS the case with an insurance company. The mere fact that they DO make a profit shows that there is waisted money somewhere and reducing that waiste will lower the fees that the health care recipients are paying.

 

[Navy Pride]

Liberals would like to make America a socialist or communist state.......Why the hell should I have to pay for someone elses health insurance......Pretty soon they are going to want us to pay for their food, buy them a car and a house...........

No thanks.........

 

[taxedout]

1. It is not likely that doctors would leave the field or not enter in the first place and I just invite you to look at my above posts concerning the possible increase in their salaries. It is MUCH easier to get reimbersed from medicade than it is from insurance companies according to my wife and there is about a 6-12 month wait that doctors go through when trying to get reimbersed from insurance companies plust WAY MORE red tape that you have to go through.

I don't know where your wife gets the idea that doctors will make more.
I suggest that she escape acedemic medicine as quickly as possible.
It is the last bastion of physicians incapable of earning a living in the real world.

The doctors' blood will be the first blood shed. They have no power base from which to negotiate. The ignorant masses don't understand their sacrifices.
They are simply looked upon as "rich" doctors.
They will be the first sacrifices upon the "redistribution" alter, and the
proletariat will rejoice, believing that they will be getting something for nothing.

The insurance/banking giants will benefit as usual.
Who do you think finances the election campaigns ?

 

[Indy]

I don't know where your wife gets the idea that doctors will make more.
I suggest that she escape acedemic medicine as quickly as possible.
It is the last bastion of physicians incapable of earning a living in the real world.

You don't know where she gets that idea? She IS a doctor. Um... wouldn't her insight on how the system works bear some weight in this issue? I thought it would, but I may be wrong. May I ask where you are receiving your insight from?

Liberals would like to make America a socialist or communist state.......Why the hell should I have to pay for someone elses health insurance......Pretty soon they are going to want us to pay for their food, buy them a car and a house...........

You see, these kinds of accusations are the exact thing that usually ends these threads where ideas are actually being discussed in a polite manner. Please don't bring your hate in here. Also, where do you get the idea that Liberals want this country to go communist? I thought it was the "Lefts" job to make crackpot conspiracy theories? One last thing, why are you so afraid of any and all socialist policies? Do you not realize that social security is a socialist policy, so are medicade and medicare, foodstamps, unemployment, national education, national hospitals, veterans hospitals, libraries, etc. A socialist policy is one where everybody chips in for something that they don't use all the time in order to make it cheaper for all. Tell me something, are you a pinko commie? Are you trying to tear down the backbone of America? Shame on you sir! Shame!

:rofl I realize that I got kinda out-there with my ending but if you think about it, its pretty much the same argument as he was trying to make with his whole "communist" comments.