• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Do we need more border patrole agents?

tererun

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Messages
4,905
Reaction score
1,578
Location
The darkside of the moon
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
I want to start off by saying I am apathetic to whether or not we put more patroles on the mexican border for everything but the financial burden of it. If people think it is important to do, I am really not going to be bothered with stopping illegals from walking across the border. The problem I have is that we already have a well equipped and well funded group of people we have hired to secure our borders from invasion for foreigners. It is called the military. It is kind of one of their jobs to secure the US borders. For that purpose they have all sorts of goodies which let them easily know the movements of people around them.

Why should we spend money we do not have to equip new people to do a job we already have people trained to do? Let us pull some of these military people out of foreign wars and ungrateful countries and put 20,000 of them on the border? They can be stationed in america, have their families, be off on the weekends to enjoy their homes recreations, and they already come with the gear.

Seriously, who are you going to be more afraid of; some overrated mall security on an ATV, or a bunch of army people in a tank with a drone above that can see the border jumpers coming from miles away?
 

Black Dog

King Of The Dog Pound
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
36,230
Reaction score
8,358
Location
Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I want to start off by saying I am apathetic to whether or not we put more patroles on the mexican border for everything but the financial burden of it. If people think it is important to do, I am really not going to be bothered with stopping illegals from walking across the border. The problem I have is that we already have a well equipped and well funded group of people we have hired to secure our borders from invasion for foreigners. It is called the military. It is kind of one of their jobs to secure the US borders. For that purpose they have all sorts of goodies which let them easily know the movements of people around them.

Why should we spend money we do not have to equip new people to do a job we already have people trained to do? Let us pull some of these military people out of foreign wars and ungrateful countries and put 20,000 of them on the border? They can be stationed in america, have their families, be off on the weekends to enjoy their homes recreations, and they already come with the gear.

Seriously, who are you going to be more afraid of; some overrated mall security on an ATV, or a bunch of army people in a tank with a drone above that can see the border jumpers coming from miles away?

Hmmm...

No extra tax money... Not using it on the American people...

I can't find anything wrong with this reasoning. Color me surprised!

I think hell just froze over. I agree Tererun, this is actually not a bad idea.
 

Black Dog

King Of The Dog Pound
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
36,230
Reaction score
8,358
Location
Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
PS that would be a great use for Predator Drones on top of everything else.
 

MMC

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
56,981
Reaction score
27,029
Location
Chicago Illinois
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
Not a Bad Idea TR.....we could even have National Guard, and Reserve do so as well. Rather than Weekends and for training in the Summer they could be sent to Enforce the Border.
 

specklebang

Discount Philosopher
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
11,524
Reaction score
6,769
Location
Las Vegas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
So, would we kill the illegal entrants? Is that even permissible? It's not usually a death penalty crime, even in NK they'll imprison you but blow you up?

Just asking?

Looks like jobs, jobs, jobs to me. I mean using agents instead of armed drones that is.


PS that would be a great use for Predator Drones on top of everything else.
 

specklebang

Discount Philosopher
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
11,524
Reaction score
6,769
Location
Las Vegas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
24/7/365? Where do they live while off duty? Our border has miles of barren desert on the Mexican side.

I'm not attacking your proposal. Just questioning the logistics.



Not a Bad Idea TR.....we could even have National Guard, and Reserve do so as well. Rather than Weekends and for training in the Summer they could be sent to Enforce the Border.
 

Linc

NIMBY
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
52,693
Reaction score
15,505
Location
IL—16
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
From the border fence map I saw, most would be in Texas. No problem. I'm sure there are still difficult gaps in the other three Southwest states also. Then there are the waters and eventually the northern border. Many of these soldiers are coming home right now. They can also be used as a first-responder force for Nautural Disasters.
I want to start off by saying I am apathetic to whether or not we put more patroles on the mexican border for everything but the financial burden of it. If people think it is important to do, I am really not going to be bothered with stopping illegals from walking across the border. The problem I have is that we already have a well equipped and well funded group of people we have hired to secure our borders from invasion for foreigners. It is called the military. It is kind of one of their jobs to secure the US borders. For that purpose they have all sorts of goodies which let them easily know the movements of people around them.

Why should we spend money we do not have to equip new people to do a job we already have people trained to do? Let us pull some of these military people out of foreign wars and ungrateful countries and put 20,000 of them on the border? They can be stationed in america, have their families, be off on the weekends to enjoy their homes recreations, and they already come with the gear.

Seriously, who are you going to be more afraid of; some overrated mall security on an ATV, or a bunch of army people in a tank with a drone above that can see the border jumpers coming from miles away?
 

Black Dog

King Of The Dog Pound
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
36,230
Reaction score
8,358
Location
Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
So, would we kill the illegal entrants? Is that even permissible? It's not usually a death penalty crime, even in NK they'll imprison you but blow you up?

Just asking?

Who said anything about killing anyone??? That was not even implied in the original post? Why would you assume anyone would want to kill them? I think this says more about an overreaction by you than anything Tererun or I said.

Your question is nothing but hyperbole, period.

Looks like jobs, jobs, jobs to me. I mean using agents instead of armed drones that is.

Please point out where anyone said armed drones???? More hyperbole.

We have unarmed spy drones which would be cheaper and much more suited to the job as this has nothing at all to do with killing those crossing the border. Catching them alive is the priority, not killing anyone.
 

MMC

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
56,981
Reaction score
27,029
Location
Chicago Illinois
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
24/7/365? Where do they live while off duty? Our border has miles of barren desert on the Mexican side.

I'm not attacking your proposal. Just questioning the logistics.

Well.....we do have Bases in the Bordering States. Course there would also be the Use of any Border Facilities and then there are Border towns with local Law Enforcement. Course Guard and reserve Units don't train 24/7 365 days a year. Meaning the same Units. But with the way it is structured it could be implemented 365 days a year. With those rotating for Duty and Training. Kill 2 Birds with one stone. Plus it would give those people some experience in dealing with those coming in illegally from other Countries. Including any Drug Runners and Nefarious Types.

There would also be the perception that we maintain the Border while enforcing our laws.
 

tererun

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Messages
4,905
Reaction score
1,578
Location
The darkside of the moon
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
So, would we kill the illegal entrants? Is that even permissible? It's not usually a death penalty crime, even in NK they'll imprison you but blow you up?

Yes, you will probably have to shoot a couple of them. They want to come over here, and the worse they will get for trying to cross the border is some food, some shelter, and a trip back. You make a nice section of warnings and then set the army up a warning and a kill zone. They step into the warning zone and you make sure they are well aware they will be killed. They step into the kill zone and then you kill them. You may not like it, but if you are going to secure a border the army is the best way to do it. If you want people to be able to trickle back and forth then you do the half assed route and admit you do not want to stop people from coming over. Believe me, you will not have hordes of people getting shot when the word gets out. Even a large group of unarmed or way outgunned crossers see the first couple get shot and they are going to turn around. They are not there to fight their way across the border, they just want to play the border jumping game. If you make it less of a game and many of them may try to fix their own country.

Just asking?

Looks like jobs, jobs, jobs to me. I mean using agents instead of armed drones that is.

Yes, you are right, the use of military instead of border guards would also reduce government employment. You cut some costs, use the people we already have and their equipment. If you need some more people you recruit through the military and not through whoever gets all the fat bonuses in the border control department. But you are missing the net effect. Securing the borders means an end to the influx of people who are doing other low paying jobs. Eventually they will have to hire americans for those jobs, and perhaps pay them a more appropriate wage. We also would see a reduction in public funding through social programs for illegals.
 

Jredbaron96

Gen 4:10
Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
19,340
Reaction score
11,577
Location
US of A
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Border Patrol*
Seriously people, this is English 101.
 

MMC

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 26, 2012
Messages
56,981
Reaction score
27,029
Location
Chicago Illinois
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Private
From the border fence map I saw, most would be in Texas. No problem. I'm sure there are still difficult gaps in the other three Southwest states also. Then there are the waters and eventually the northern border. Many of these soldiers are coming home right now. They can also be used as a first-responder force for Nautural Disasters.

That would also be the idea, and they would not have to be Mobilized by the Governor of that State, should a Disaster strike and they are on Duty in that Region.

We have to pay for the training anyways and the personnel to keep Guard and Reserve units. Doing so this way. We wouldn't have to hire more border security and or LEs. Plus we could save on costs.
 

tererun

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Messages
4,905
Reaction score
1,578
Location
The darkside of the moon
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Other
24/7/365? Where do they live while off duty? Our border has miles of barren desert on the Mexican side.

I'm not attacking your proposal. Just questioning the logistics.

If the military can build bases in Iraq, and we can built one of our biggest cities in nevada, i am pretty sure the military could establish towns in those areas. If you have a huge military base, you have customers for commercial businesses to tap. Not for nothing, but catching a bus from the border to a bigger city in texas, AZ, or NM would be so much easier than other countries. If this were to happen, then we would need permanent settlements to be established. The military actually has the ability and training to start off that project with their people and resources. Once you start it then commerce will develop in the area because you have a need.
 

Linc

NIMBY
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
52,693
Reaction score
15,505
Location
IL—16
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
I was in the Northeast for the 2nd semester. Patrols are extensive and detailed. They don't have a problem yet. It's like water running downhill, even if it is to the North.
That would also be the idea, and they would not have to be Mobilized by the Governor of that State, should a Disaster strike and they are on Duty in that Region.

We have to pay for the training anyways and the personnel to keep Guard and Reserve units. Doing so this way. We wouldn't have to hire more border security and or LEs. Plus we could save on costs.
 

Linc

NIMBY
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
52,693
Reaction score
15,505
Location
IL—16
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
I think it is pretty well established that our economy is dependent on the military, especially in the South. Security at home first would be a good political theme, IMO. I miss northern half of NM. It has been a while.
If the military can build bases in Iraq, and we can built one of our biggest cities in nevada, i am pretty sure the military could establish towns in those areas. If you have a huge military base, you have customers for commercial businesses to tap. Not for nothing, but catching a bus from the border to a bigger city in texas, AZ, or NM would be so much easier than other countries. If this were to happen, then we would need permanent settlements to be established. The military actually has the ability and training to start off that project with their people and resources. Once you start it then commerce will develop in the area because you have a need.
 

Black Dog

King Of The Dog Pound
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
36,230
Reaction score
8,358
Location
Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Yes, you will probably have to shoot a couple of them. They want to come over here, and the worse they will get for trying to cross the border is some food, some shelter, and a trip back. You make a nice section of warnings and then set the army up a warning and a kill zone. They step into the warning zone and you make sure they are well aware they will be killed. They step into the kill zone and then you kill them. You may not like it, but if you are going to secure a border the army is the best way to do it. If you want people to be able to trickle back and forth then you do the half assed route and admit you do not want to stop people from coming over. Believe me, you will not have hordes of people getting shot when the word gets out. Even a large group of unarmed or way outgunned crossers see the first couple get shot and they are going to turn around. They are not there to fight their way across the border, they just want to play the border jumping game. If you make it less of a game and many of them may try to fix their own country.



Yes, you are right, the use of military instead of border guards would also reduce government employment. You cut some costs, use the people we already have and their equipment. If you need some more people you recruit through the military and not through whoever gets all the fat bonuses in the border control department. But you are missing the net effect. Securing the borders means an end to the influx of people who are doing other low paying jobs. Eventually they will have to hire americans for those jobs, and perhaps pay them a more appropriate wage. We also would see a reduction in public funding through social programs for illegals.

Then you ruin a good idea with overtly militant illegal crap. Oy.
 

specklebang

Discount Philosopher
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
11,524
Reaction score
6,769
Location
Las Vegas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
My apologies. I thought a Predator Drone was something lethal. Complete misunderstanding. My question may have been dumb but it was in good faith.
Who said anything about killing anyone??? That was not even implied in the original post? Why would you assume anyone would want to kill them? I think this says more about an overreaction by you than anything Tererun or I said.

Your question is nothing but hyperbole, period.



Please point out where anyone said armed drones???? More hyperbole.

We have unarmed spy drones which would be cheaper and much more suited to the job as this has nothing at all to do with killing those crossing the border. Catching them alive is the priority, not killing anyone.
 

specklebang

Discount Philosopher
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
11,524
Reaction score
6,769
Location
Las Vegas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
It won't be easy. Kind of like whack-a-mole. The moment vigilance drops in one area for one hour, someone will try. It's not like we don't have a Border Patrol now. But look how utterly ineffective they are (I assume based on the large number of "illegals" ). Certainly won't hurt to try.



Well.....we do have Bases in the Bordering States. Course there would also be the Use of any Border Facilities and then there are Border towns with local Law Enforcement. Course Guard and reserve Units don't train 24/7 365 days a year. Meaning the same Units. But with the way it is structured it could be implemented 365 days a year. With those rotating for Duty and Training. Kill 2 Birds with one stone. Plus it would give those people some experience in dealing with those coming in illegally from other Countries. Including any Drug Runners and Nefarious Types.

There would also be the perception that we maintain the Border while enforcing our laws.
 

specklebang

Discount Philosopher
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
11,524
Reaction score
6,769
Location
Las Vegas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
Are we allowed to shoot unarmed civilians? Isn't there some global standard for use of lethal force? I'm just asking. I'm not taking a position.




Yes, you will probably have to shoot a couple of them. They want to come over here, and the worse they will get for trying to cross the border is some food, some shelter, and a trip back. You make a nice section of warnings and then set the army up a warning and a kill zone. They step into the warning zone and you make sure they are well aware they will be killed. They step into the kill zone and then you kill them. You may not like it, but if you are going to secure a border the army is the best way to do it. If you want people to be able to trickle back and forth then you do the half assed route and admit you do not want to stop people from coming over. Believe me, you will not have hordes of people getting shot when the word gets out. Even a large group of unarmed or way outgunned crossers see the first couple get shot and they are going to turn around. They are not there to fight their way across the border, they just want to play the border jumping game. If you make it less of a game and many of them may try to fix their own country.



Yes, you are right, the use of military instead of border guards would also reduce government employment. You cut some costs, use the people we already have and their equipment. If you need some more people you recruit through the military and not through whoever gets all the fat bonuses in the border control department. But you are missing the net effect. Securing the borders means an end to the influx of people who are doing other low paying jobs. Eventually they will have to hire americans for those jobs, and perhaps pay them a more appropriate wage. We also would see a reduction in public funding through social programs for illegals.
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Are we allowed to shoot unarmed civilians? Isn't there some global standard for use of lethal force? I'm just asking. I'm not taking a position.

Well we can drone them apparently so sure, why not.
 

specklebang

Discount Philosopher
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
11,524
Reaction score
6,769
Location
Las Vegas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
I understand. We'd basically create a bunch of new small towns with their portion of the border (whatevers) as customers. It is a long border though and this will take many years. It sure would be cheaper and easier to issue national ID cards and deny all service to anyone without one (or a passport and visa). I really feel we're trying to do this the hard and expensive way and I think of how the powers that be have avoided this for generations. Did/do they know something we don't?



If the military can build bases in Iraq, and we can built one of our biggest cities in nevada, i am pretty sure the military could establish towns in those areas. If you have a huge military base, you have customers for commercial businesses to tap. Not for nothing, but catching a bus from the border to a bigger city in texas, AZ, or NM would be so much easier than other countries. If this were to happen, then we would need permanent settlements to be established. The military actually has the ability and training to start off that project with their people and resources. Once you start it then commerce will develop in the area because you have a need.
 

specklebang

Discount Philosopher
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2012
Messages
11,524
Reaction score
6,769
Location
Las Vegas
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
Well we can drone them apparently so sure, why not.

Theoretically, you are correct. But the people we drone are (theoretically) sworn and active enemies of the US that belong to terrorist groups. The border is being swarmed by women namd Maria that are hoping for housekeeping jobs. Are they in the same class when it comes to pulling the trigger?
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Theoretically, you are correct. But the people we drone are (theoretically) sworn and active enemies of the US that belong to terrorist groups. The border is being swarmed by women namd Maria that are hoping for housekeeping jobs. Are they in the same class when it comes to pulling the trigger?

Apparently your assumptions are wrong about who we drone. I saw somebody talking about it the other day on TV--maybe on Charlie Rose. If a primary target has any interactions with others while in surveillance, apparently the others are deemed terrorists and are targeted too without bothering to figure out who the person is or the nature of the contact. We saw them talking to the person we are going to zap so they get zapped too.
 

Black Dog

King Of The Dog Pound
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
36,230
Reaction score
8,358
Location
Georgia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
My apologies. I thought a Predator Drone was something lethal. Complete misunderstanding. My question may have been dumb but it was in good faith.

I got no problem with good faith questions. Of course with Tererun, going all "you have to kill a few" you were probably right in asking after all.

I disagree with Tererun on that. I don't think we need to be killing people for a felony that is not a threat to life or property. Goes against everything we believe in. Another thing is when and if they were caught, they should immediately be handed over to civilian authority and not left to the military. The military are not police and should not be expected to use lethal force outside of defense, or detain prisoners under any circumstance. They are not trained police officers and should not be expected to act as such.

I have no problem with using military assets to secure the boarder as long as it is implemented under the watchful eye of civilian law enforcement.

I have been in both positions, military and civilian law enforcement. Trust me when I say you do not want to leave this in the hands of the military alone. This is not a war or invasion.

Apology to Tererun with the Moot mix up.
 
Last edited:

Grand Mal

Question authority
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
38,060
Reaction score
20,094
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
I'm Canadian and I definitely think we need more border patrols. By all means, unleash the military.


(grin!)
 
Top Bottom