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Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drunk?

Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drunk?


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Howler63

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This is not about 'victim shaming' but rather about responsibility for one's own safety. Are you responsible to keep yourself OUT of such situations?
 

chuckiechan

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Yes.

Am I going to take a stroll in a crime and drug ridden neighborhood populated by a race other than mine? That would be irresponsible, but does not change the legal facts of the crime if I'm raped.
 

MaggieD

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

This is not about 'victim shaming' but rather about responsibility for one's own safety. Are you responsible to keep yourself OUT of such situations?

Women are responsible for their situational decisions. If one has chosen to get blackout drunk...and, unless one is DRUGGED, it IS a decision, they have engaged in EXTREMELY risky behavior. Although the perpetrator is 100% responsible, society, in general, is going to lay blame on the victim for their stupidity.
 

Howler63

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Women are responsible for their situational decisions. If one has chosen to get blackout drunk...and, unless one is DRUGGED, it IS a decision, they have engaged in EXTREMELY risky behavior. Although the perpetrator is 100% responsible, society, in general, is going to lay blame on the victim for their stupidity.

I will ALWAYS lay the 'blame' on the attacker. They should all be castrated, then thrown off a ****ing cliff. But, I taught my daughter to be aware. All the time. Everywhere. Trust in your fellow man is a wonderful thing, but there are limits. Keep your drinking to a manageable level and KNOW YOUR LIMITS.

Put it this way, if the young lady in the latest case hadn't been drinking to excess, we wouldn't be having this conversation about Stanford.
 

t4pi0k4

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Taking advantage of someone who is unconscious, this is some serious disgusting, coward, and psychopatic behavior!
the mere thought of people doing that makes me puke!
And by the way when you commit a crime, intoxication should never ever be considered as an extenuating circumstance!
That californian judge who thought that 6 months was punishment enough for a rape is an insult to his profession!!
Compare that to Cruz vs Haley, where Haley got a 16 year sentence for stealing a calculator! And he had to wait for the US supreme court to finally right this wrong!
What a sad joke this US judicial system is increasingly becoming!
 
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TheGoverness

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

This is not about 'victim shaming' but rather about responsibility for one's own safety. Are you responsible to keep yourself OUT of such situations?

Of course you are responsible.
 

chuckiechan

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

There are two things at play:

The opportunity to be a victim
The right not to be a victim

Getting drunk and passing out at a Hell's Angles party is one thing.
Doing the same thing at a frat party is another.
Legally they are the same, but one might expect some level of assault protection at a frat party.

Normal people do not have sex with women who are "easy" because they are unconscious or close to it.
 

Howler63

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

There are two things at play:

The opportunity to be a victim
The right not to be a victim

Getting drunk and passing out at a Hell's Angles party is one thing.
Doing the same thing at a frat party is another.
Legally they are the same, but one might expect some level of assault protection at a frat party.

Normal people do not have sex with women who are "easy" because they are unconscious or close to it.


Never, never, never EVER expect any level of 'assault protection' ANYWHERE except your own home. I've seen frat kids who are worse than any Hell's Angel when it comes to being entitled assholes.

And here's a thing I NEVER understood...why have sex with an unconscious woman? Where's the fun in that? Sex is rolling around, sweating like pigs, and calling out for Jesus. Not whatever the hell one does with a drunk.
 
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Arcana XV

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Should everyone, men and women alike, do all they can to avoid dangerous situations? Yes, of course. That doesn't change the fact that a rape victim, man or woman, is NEVER to blame for being raped, regardless of the circumstances in which it happened. I don't even know why this is constantly being rehashed. No matter how you phrase the question, the implication is "Well, girlie, I'm sorry you got raped, but it's kinda your fault too....". We should know better than to ever make rape victims feel even worse than they already feel.
 

cpwill

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

No. You deserve responsibility only for your own actions. If you are dumb enough to get blackout drunk (spoiler alert: this is a group of people that has included (this will surprise nobody) cpwill), then you deserve responsibility for that. If you rape someone, you deserve responsibility for that. You aren't responsible for their decision to get blackout drunk, and they aren't responsible for your decision to rape them.
 

Beaudreaux

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

This is not about 'victim shaming' but rather about responsibility for one's own safety. Are you responsible to keep yourself OUT of such situations?

No person should ever take advantage of an unconscious person sexually, or otherwise, but especially sexually. That said, read the first part of my sig below, regarding choices.

However, a civilized society should be able to have the expectation that when a person is vulnerable, regardless of fault for being in that vulnerable position, that the person should feel safe, that others will not take advantage of their vulnerability, and would in fact guard them from harm.
 
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Howler63

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Should everyone, men and women alike, do all they can to avoid dangerous situations? Yes, of course. That doesn't change the fact that a rape victim, man or woman, is NEVER to blame for being raped, regardless of the circumstances in which it happened. I don't even know why this is constantly being rehashed. No matter how you phrase the question, the implication is "Well, girlie, I'm sorry you got raped, but it's kinda your fault too....". We should know better than to ever make rape victims feel even worse than they already feel.

I don't believe this for a second. Rapists are evil. But getting that drunk at a party is stupidity on a stellar level. If I get drunk and go to take a swim in the ocean..do I share the responsibility if I drown? Of course I do.
 

ttwtt78640

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

This is not about 'victim shaming' but rather about responsibility for one's own safety. Are you responsible to keep yourself OUT of such situations?

No - unlike civil law, where one can be found partially liable, that does not exist in criminal law. Is a passed out (or very diminished capacity) individual also to blame if they are robbed or murdered? The fact that only one person decided that she was asking for it and that mere passers by decided that she was not should be a clue. If the rapist can use the excuse that they were under the influence of drugs (including alcohol) as a mitigating factor then why is that same factor an aggravating factor when applied to their selected victim?

Obviously it is not a good idea to become so drug addled that you are incapable of even a modest amount of self defense yet the fact that you are easier prey does not, in any way, lessen the responsibility of others not to attack, or otherwise take advantage of, you. Is it easier to rob or rape a drunk person? Yes, but that does not excuse or even lessen the criminal offense.
 

Nilly

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Does a woman owning their sexuality, the freedom to dress and dance sexily if it makes them feel good — also means ownership of rape? Is rape is an acceptable consequence of free sexual expression? I don't think so. The problem with comparing it to someone getting their house or car broken into (aside for the fact you're comparing a woman's body to property) is that there are clear steps you can take in these situations (well lit area, lock doors, hide valuables), but that's not the case for preventing rape.

If one gender has to stop drinking "to excess" because there's a link between alcohol and rape (and let's be clear: rapists are just as likely to be drinking as their victims), why isn't it the gender that does the overwhelming majority of the raping? Oh right, because we'd never ask men to give up their ability to decide which risks are right for them. We only do that to women, so that when they make decisions we wouldn't make we can have the pleasure of calling them "stupid."
 
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Beaudreaux

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

I don't believe this for a second. Rapists are evil. But getting that drunk at a party is stupidity on a stellar level. If I get drunk and go to take a swim in the ocean..do I share the responsibility if I drown? Of course I do.

The problem with your analogy is that the ocean isn't a sentient being, and did not drown you intentionally and with malice of forethought. The person that took advantage of an unconscious person is a sentient being, that intentionally and with malice of forethought, raped another person. The actor, the rapist, has the ability to stop the rape before it happens. The ocean does not have the ability to stop you from going under the surface where you cannot breathe.
 

Howler63

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

No - unlike civil law, where one can be found partially liable, that does not exist in criminal law. Is a passed out (or very diminished capacity) individual also to blame if they are robbed or murdered? The fact that only one person decided that she was asking for it and that mere passers by decided that she was not should be a clue. If the rapist can use the excuse that they were under the influence of drugs (including alcohol) as a mitigating factor then why is that same factor an aggravating factor when applied to their selected victim?

Obviously it is not a good idea to become so drug addled that you are incapable of even a modest amount of self defense yet the fact that you are easier prey does not, in any way, lessen the responsibility of others not to attack, or otherwise take advantage of, you. Is it easier to rob or rape a drunk person? Yes, but that does not excuse or even lessen the criminal offense.

Again, no one is looking to excuse the rapist. They should be hauled off to the nearest Super-Max and thrown in wearing ass-less chaps. They are evil and they should PAY. But I fear that teaching women (and in some cases men) the core principles of self control and responsibility is being lost in the rush to go out and get the aforementioned chaps. We can't let that happen.

Young women, especially, NEED to be aware of the dangers of a lack of self control in such an environment.
 

TheDemSocialist

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

**** no the victim is not responsible. The only thing they are responsible for is getting drunk. They are not responsible for someone else's actions.
 

joG

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

This is not about 'victim shaming' but rather about responsibility for one's own safety. Are you responsible to keep yourself OUT of such situations?

There is a similar discussion going on in another forum just now. There seems to have been a general understanding that everything is causal and that putting yourself in a situation of higher risk brings responsibility for the effected action with it. That at least the perception of a person by others is affected in the way one naturally expects seems to be underpinned in the following experiment.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ahoo.com&purchase_site_license=LICENSE_DENIED

The question would be, whether there are factors that increase the probability of rape. It seems intuitively plausible that there be such. Alcohol, dress etc come to mind.
I only did a quickie, but the search revealed very little literature of substance. Here is an abstract of one of the papers that does indicate that there are correlations that support the hypothesis that the behavior of the victim influences the level of risk. It is not large enough to be robust and is based only on a sample without control group. But it is something:

"Antecedents of sexual victimization: factors discriminating victims from nonvictims.
Synovitz LB1, Byrne TJ.
Author information
Abstract
A sexual victimization survey was used to assess the factors that would discriminate between victims and nonvictims of sexual assault. The sample consisted of 241 female college students at a large midwestern university. Victimization status was ascertained from the 13-question Sexual Experiences Survey developed by Koss and Gidycz and Koss and Oros. Data eliciting information about possible associated factors (demographics, dating history, sexual history, personality characteristics and traits) and victimization status were obtained by adapting several scales and instruments into a single Dating and Relationship Survey. Of the 241 women, 102 reported they had been victimized. Discriminant function analysis was used to develop a set of variables that significantly identified victimization status. The variables found to be related to women's being sexually victimized were (a) number of different lifetime sexual partners, (b) provocative dress, and (c) alcohol use."
 

Howler63

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

The problem with your analogy is that the ocean isn't a sentient being, and did not drown you intentionally and with malice of forethought. The person that took advantage of an unconscious person is a sentient being, that intentionally and with malice of forethought, raped another person. The actor, the rapist, has the ability to stop the rape before it happens. The ocean does not have the ability to stop you from going under the surface where you cannot breathe.

How about being that drunk and heading down to Watts for a stroll then? Or heading out into Fallujah wearing an American flag? Would you say that's stupid? The point is that we're seemingly trying to avoid looking at the burden borne by us all when putting ourselves into a dangerous situation.

If we want to stop this sort of behavior we need not only to use the rapist as a teaching tool, but the victim (to a point) as well.
 

Nilly

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

Young women, especially, NEED to be aware of the dangers of a lack of self control in such an environment.

image.jpg
 

Howler63

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

There is a similar discussion going on in another forum just now. There seems to have been a general understanding that everything is causal and that putting yourself in a situation of higher risk brings responsibility for the effected action with it. That at least the perception of a person by others is affected in the way one naturally expects seems to be underpinned in the following experiment.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ahoo.com&purchase_site_license=LICENSE_DENIED

The question would be, whether there are factors that increase the probability of rape. It seems intuitively plausible that there be such. Alcohol, dress etc come to mind.
I only did a quickie, but the search revealed very little literature of substance. Here is an abstract of one of the papers that does indicate that there are correlations that support the hypothesis that the behavior of the victim influences the level of risk. It is not large enough to be robust and is based only on a sample without control group. But it is something:

"Antecedents of sexual victimization: factors discriminating victims from nonvictims.
Synovitz LB1, Byrne TJ.
Author information
Abstract
A sexual victimization survey was used to assess the factors that would discriminate between victims and nonvictims of sexual assault. The sample consisted of 241 female college students at a large midwestern university. Victimization status was ascertained from the 13-question Sexual Experiences Survey developed by Koss and Gidycz and Koss and Oros. Data eliciting information about possible associated factors (demographics, dating history, sexual history, personality characteristics and traits) and victimization status were obtained by adapting several scales and instruments into a single Dating and Relationship Survey. Of the 241 women, 102 reported they had been victimized. Discriminant function analysis was used to develop a set of variables that significantly identified victimization status. The variables found to be related to women's being sexually victimized were (a) number of different lifetime sexual partners, (b) provocative dress, and (c) alcohol use."

This reinforces my point. I'm not 'blaming' the young women, per se, I'm merely pointing out that they need to be aware of what they do and where they go.
 

joG

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

**** no the victim is not responsible. The only thing they are responsible for is getting drunk. They are not responsible for someone else's actions.

That is a very uninformed opinion in that generalizing statement. We have many cases in our legal system that attach responsibility to the victim. The only question is how much responsibility the parties have and whether our customs allow it to be attributed in this case.
 

Howler63

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun


Don't get blackout drunk.

Know your surroundings and stay alert.

Know your limitations.

Keep your eye on your drinks and never resume drinking one that's you've not been watching.

Never accept drinks or drugs from strangers.

Never leave the crowded areas of a party.

Use the buddy system. Look out for each other and help each other stay alert.


My list could be used by a woman looking to protect herself. Yours will be ignored by a RAPIST.

See the difference?
 

TheDemSocialist

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

That is a very uninformed opinion in that generalizing statement. We have many cases in our legal system that attach responsibility to the victim. The only question is how much responsibility the parties have and whether our customs allow it to be attributed in this case.

And in this case, the example given in the OP, the victim is in no way responsible.
 

joG

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Re: Do victims bear any responsibility for sexual assault if they are 'blackout' drun

This reinforces my point. I'm not 'blaming' the young women, per se, I'm merely pointing out that they need to be aware of what they do and where they go.

Quite right. There can be no question that the raper needs punishment. But to say that no blame is attached to stupid behavior is irresponsible.
 
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