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Do natural rights exist?[W:811:1629]

Do natural rights exist?

  • Yes

    Votes: 44 52.4%
  • No

    Votes: 40 47.6%

  • Total voters
    84

Viking11

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I can't grasp the logic behind the concept of natural rights. I can understand it from a theological perspective, that God has endowed each human being with certain rights... but I'm an atheist, so that doesn't quite work for me. What makes sense to me is that our rights come from our laws. We granted each individual a set of rights when we formed the government. There's nothing natural about the concept, it's entirely human-made.
 

Cephus

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

No. Only lunatic libertarians think they do. It's just religious faith for a political ideology to get around having to actually justify your position with evidence, logic and reason.
 

Cardinal

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

Every time a super basic civil right is discussed, somebody has to tard up the thread with some comment that so-and-so isn't a "natural right." I just ignore those parts of their posts.
 
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Kal'Stang

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

I can't grasp the logic behind the concept of natural rights. I can understand it from a theological perspective, that God has endowed each human being with certain rights... but I'm an atheist, so that doesn't quite work for me. What makes sense to me is that our rights come from our laws. We granted each individual a set of rights when we formed the government. There's nothing natural about the concept, it's entirely human-made.

A natural right isn't necessarily about God. A natural right is something that every free society must have if it is to be a free society. For example: You do not have free society if you cannot speak out against the government. You do not have a free society if you cannot defend yourself by the best means available against anyone that means to do you harm. You do not have a free society if the government can go through your things willy nilly. Take away even ONE of these things and society is no longer free.

It's easy to dismiss natural rights when you frame it as something that is only granted by God. I've often found that those that want peoples free speech suppressed via "consequences", wants guns to be had only by government officials, and uses the words "if you have nothing to hide then...." are also the ones normally against the concept of natural rights. Note: That doesn't apply to everyone, but certainly most that I have dealt with.
 

Henrin

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

Doesn't matter. A society that is interested in rights should follow a standard for right declarations. Setting the standard to something based on body sovereignty and the liberty of the individual is one that ensures the life, the voice, the property, and the general freedom of the individual.
 

Citizen.Seven

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

As an atheist, I look upon "natural rights" as postulatory: asserted without proof by an observation of nature. Think of Newton's three "laws", or Einstein's for SR, or the two for GR. One could even pen some of them similarly to Newton. Instead of "We hold these truths to be self-evident,..", you could write it as "Unless acted upon by an outside force,...." where of course the "force" in this case would be political rather than physical.
 

minnie616

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

As I posted on another thread there are no natural rights especially the right to life.
Laws regarding so called "rights " are man made laws.

Government cannot protect citizens from being killed.
It can provide punishment for those who break laws.
It can declare war and put our military people in harms way.
It can draft men or women who do not want to be a part of the armed service and send them off to war.

There is no right to life.
 

Henrin

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

Just something to think about..

If justice be not a natural principle, it is no principle at all. If it be not a natural principle, there is no such thing as justice. If it be not a natural principle, all that men have ever said or written about it, from time immemorial, has been said and written about that which had no existence. If it be not a natural principle, all the appeals for justice that have ever been heard, and all the struggles for justice that have ever been witnessed, have been appeals and struggles for a mere fantasy, a vagary of the imagination, and not for a reality.

If justice be not a natural principle, then there is no such thing as injustice; and all the crimes of which the world has been the scene, have been no crimes at all; but only simple events, like the falling of the rain, or the setting of the sun; events of which the victims had no more reason to complain than they had to complain of the running of the streams, or the growth of vegetation.

If justice be not a natural principle, governments (so-called) have no more right or reason to take cognizance of it, or to pretend or profess to take cognizance of it, than they have to take cognizance, or to pretend or profess to take cognizance, of any other nonentity; and all their professions of establishing justice, or of maintaining justice, or of regarding justice, are simply the mere gibberish of fools, or the frauds of imposters.

But if justice be a natural principle, then it is necessarily an immutable one; and can no more be changed - by any power inferior to that which established it - than can the law of gravitation, the laws of light, the principles of mathematics, or any other natural law or principle whatever; and all attempts or assumptions, on the part of any man or body of men - whether calling themselves governments, or by any other name - to set up their own commands, wills, pleasure, or discretion, in the place of justice, as a rule of conduct for any human being, are as much an absurdity, an usurpation, and a tyranny, as would be their attempts to set up their own commands, wills, pleasure, or discretion in place of any and all the physical, mental, and moral laws of the universe. - Lysander Spooner
 

Ikari

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

I can't grasp the logic behind the concept of natural rights. I can understand it from a theological perspective, that God has endowed each human being with certain rights... but I'm an atheist, so that doesn't quite work for me. What makes sense to me is that our rights come from our laws. We granted each individual a set of rights when we formed the government. There's nothing natural about the concept, it's entirely human-made.

Gods aren't necessary for the understanding of natural rights. Kant does a good job arguing the existence of natural rights without evoking gods.
 

Nilly

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

I can't grasp the logic behind the concept of natural rights. I can understand it from a theological perspective, that God has endowed each human being with certain rights... but I'm an atheist, so that doesn't quite work for me. What makes sense to me is that our rights come from our laws. We granted each individual a set of rights when we formed the government. There's nothing natural about the concept, it's entirely human-made.

I used to have a big problem with the concept of natural rights but think I started to turn a corner a little while back.

I consider certain rights to be natural in the same sense that society and language are 'natural'. There are certain things that whilst being 'man-made' are also completely natural. I do not believe they are granted by god or any such form of higher power, they just arise naturally out of interactions between people.
 

tres borrachos

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

I can't grasp the logic behind the concept of natural rights. I can understand it from a theological perspective, that God has endowed each human being with certain rights... but I'm an atheist, so that doesn't quite work for me. What makes sense to me is that our rights come from our laws. We granted each individual a set of rights when we formed the government. There's nothing natural about the concept, it's entirely human-made.

Your user panel says you're from NH. I live in NH. I can't find enough time in the day to come up with as many questions as you do. Do you sit on your toilet and have these things occur to you or do you live in Coos County and miss moose season?
 

SDET

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

I can't grasp the logic behind the concept of natural rights. I can understand it from a theological perspective, that God has endowed each human being with certain rights... but I'm an atheist, so that doesn't quite work for me. What makes sense to me is that our rights come from our laws. We granted each individual a set of rights when we formed the government. There's nothing natural about the concept, it's entirely human-made.

Your assertion is correct. Without God there are no natural rights, only privileges that can be granted and revoked anytime government finds it expedient.
 

Thrilla

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

As I posted on another thread there are no natural rights especially the right to life.
Laws regarding so called "rights " are man made laws.

Government cannot protect citizens from being killed.
It can provide punishment for those who break laws.
It can declare war and put our military people in harms way.
It can draft men or women who do not want to be a part of the armed service and send them off to war.

There is no right to life.

that's true, there is no right to life... which is why no one has a problem with killing people or being killed themselves.
 

SDET

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

Your user panel says you're from NH. I live in NH. I can't find enough time in the day to come up with as many questions as you do. Do you sit on your toilet and have these things occur to you or do you live in Coos County and miss moose season?

Coos County, NH: Part of the Sherbrooke, Quebec media market.
 

Thrilla

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

Your assertion is correct. Without God there are no natural rights, only privileges that can be granted and revoked anytime government finds it expedient.

I don't think God has anything to do with it... but yes, you'll find that many folks belive everything we think are "rights" are actually government granted privileges that can be done away with at the whim of legislators.
 

Fishking

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

As I posted on another thread there are no natural rights especially the right to life.
Laws regarding so called "rights " are man made laws.

Government cannot protect citizens from being killed.
It can provide punishment for those who break laws.
It can declare war and put our military people in harms way.
It can draft men or women who do not want to be a part of the armed service and send them off to war.

There is no right to life.

Just because circumstances can occur that deprive you of life doesn't mean there isn't a right to life. That's some very flawed logic.
 

Henrin

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

As I posted on another thread there are no natural rights especially the right to life.
Laws regarding so called "rights " are man made laws.

Government cannot protect citizens from being killed.
It can provide punishment for those who break laws.
It can declare war and put our military people in harms way.
It can draft men or women who do not want to be a part of the armed service and send them off to war.

There is no right to life.

But lets all keep in mind that there is a right to choose. Right Minnie?

You know, because having the right to control your own body wouldn't necessary imply there is a right to maintain that body. lol.
 

Thrilla

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

No rights exist but those you can protect and defend.
as every right can be violated ( which necessarily denotes a failure to protect or defend those rights )..you must conclude that rights, in their totality, do not exist.

I don't find that a very compelling thoery.
 

SCitizen

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

I am a Conservadox Jew -- thus we have duties to G-d and people.

But I believe that Free Speech must be protected from Politically Correct attacks.
 

Thrilla

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

But lets all keep in mind that there is a right to choose. Right Minnie?

You know, because having the right to control your own body wouldn't necessary imply there is a right to maintain that body. lol.

if the mother has no right to life, she simply has no right to choose.... .simple as that.
i'd also argue that if there is no right to life, then there are no rights whatsoever.... as every right necessarily hinges on being a live human.

if we have no rights, we have no need for laws or justice... as any and every act imaginable would necessarily be a legitimate act undeserving of sanction.
 

Lutherf

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

There is no prerequisite that natural rights come from God. In fact, the term refers to rights which are not dependent on a granting authority (other than God, if one also believes in Creation).

In his natural state man has the basic rights of life (and defense of his life), liberty (the right to exercise his own free will), and property (the right to possess and control that which he creates for himself). These rights are due solely to his existence and can not be granted by other people (government). The preservation of these rights is the essence of the "social contract" and the basis for government.
 
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Henrin

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

if the mother has no right to life, she simply has no right to choose.... .simple as that.
i'd also argue that if there is no right to life, then there are no rights whatsoever.... as every right necessarily hinges on being a live human.

if we have no rights, we have no need for laws or justice... as any and every act imaginable would necessarily be a legitimate act undeserving of sanction.

The right to body sovereignty results in the right to your life. I just come up with a fun way to catch her in her own logic.

Her logic is something like we can kill each other whenever we want, but at the same time each of us have a right to determine what happens with our bodies. I'm pretty sure killing someone takes away their ability to control their own body.
 
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_Sal

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

There are no natural rights, in nature it's kill or be killed, allowed to live or die at the desire of the more powerful.

Rights are something that appreciates or depreciates according to the evolution of the particular society one exists in.
 

polgara

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Re: Do natural rights exist?

There is no prerequisite that natural rights come from God. In fact, the term refers to rights which are not dependent on a granting authority (other than God, if one also believes in Creation).

In his natural state man has the basic rights of life (and defense of his life), liberty (the right to exercise his own free will), and property (the right to possess and control that which he creates for himself). These rights due solely to his existence and can not be granted by other people (government). The preservation of these rights is the essence of the "social contract" and the basis for government.

Greetings, Lutherf. :2wave:

While I agree 100 percent with your definition of rights as most countries define them, North Korea and other countries ruled by despots don't see them as "natural rights," or they would not repress their people the way they do. When a general can be executed because a missile launch fails, or their leader has an uncle he disagrees with, as examples, I can only hope there is a very hot place in Hell reserved in that leader's name! Why doesn't the UN do something for the people that are forced to exist in a horror of a country like that? :thumbdown: :2mad:
 
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