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Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 14.0%
  • Probably

    Votes: 2 4.7%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 7 16.3%
  • Probably not

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 28 65.1%
  • Don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    43

Troubadour

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Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism by making institutions weak and vulnerable to private violence?
 

Aunt Spiker

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Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism by making institutions weak and vulnerable to private violence?

No.
Facism is mainly characterized by 2 notable things: the support or use of revolt, violence and rebellion to keep things in control - or to alter what's present.
And the belief that individuality is *toxic* to your government, economy and overall function as a society.

So - they both shoulder with revolution (through physical means if necessary) - but facism almost *requires* physical control to keep the system at a measured constant (like in the movie Logan's Run)
But they differ on the personal-freedom. Facism believe personal-freedoms are BAD and Libertarianism believes person freedoms are GOOD.

Having a lasseiz-faire view and attitude which *might* lead to such things doesn't mean you *support* or *encourage* such things: and this is how libertarianism functions. It FULLY encompases individual thought and free-will.
 

Black_Zawisza

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Reduction of government inadvertently enables big government to take control? Excuse me, what?

The greatest danger is not from the mugger hiding the alleyway, nor from the multibillionaire business magnate, but from the politician in the capital city. Accordingly, the state must be kept on a tight leash, so that the statist atrocities of the 20th century can never be repeated.
 

Coronado

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Let's see:
m-w.com said:
fas·cism
noun \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Definition of FASCISM
1
often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2
: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality — J. W. Aldridge>
Obviously you are wrong. Please try harder with the troll threads in the future.

[/thread]
 

Psychoclown

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I'd like to hear how you think libertarian policies could ever possibly promote fascism (I'm guessing it involves confusing libertarianism with anarchism, but we'll see :) ). Still, no matter what you say, I can give you a short answer to your question. No.
 

MKULTRABOY

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Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism by making institutions weak and vulnerable to private violence?

Please tell us what your ideas are so we can discuss. I'm sure the libertarians will have more to say. :)
 

MKULTRABOY

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Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism by making institutions weak and vulnerable to private violence?

Ahh I see, meaning with weak institutions strongarms are more likely to take over.
 

German guy

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Obviously, libertarian philosophy is very far from facism. Maybe you could even say if more people were libertarians, that would make facism less likely.

But I do see a problem, that's not resulting from philosophical tenets of libertarianism, but a side effect of the implementation of such ideals: When democracy and public policy (including democratic elections, individual and pluralist participation and according collective action) is pushed back in favor of markets and mere individualism, you feel more and more people falling off the train: Those who are disadvantaged by the markets, the poor and less wealthy. The side effects of free markets are extreme material inequalities.

The more you cut safety nets that save those people from the worst excesses of the market, the more prone they become for fascist or other kinds of populist and demagogic paroles. It's "voice or exit", and when you are too poor for either, you revolt. When you have nothing to lose except your chains, you are ready to revolt. And you are ready to follow demagogues.

Libertarian principles put to action that cause an increase of inequality, and which lowers the power of democracy, will cause the free, republican system to lose legitimacy and support. People who are kept down materially and denied to make a difference with their voice, because the markets dictate everything, are no longer ready to support this system. And when it goes too far, you will find too many people ready to use violence to replace it with another kind of system, even if the alternatives are just illusions.

Social welfare nets to prevent the worst excesses of the markets is the only thing why so many people still support free markets at all. Take that away, and you will not find anybody anymore supporting free markets, except the few rich benefactors.

Decreasing democracy and unleashing markets are the safest way to create a mob of underclass people willing to revolt, susceptible for any demagoguery that promises betterment. Could be fascism, could be communism, could be anything else.
 
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Morality Games

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De facto oligarchy is what we have now.

Popular democracy is what we have now. Although there is a plutocratic current, its power is transitory.
 
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Ikari

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Popular democracy is what we have now. Although there is a plutocratic current, its power is transitory.

Yet the party structure is entrenched. Individuals come and go, but the Republocrats forever remain in power. Coupled with the corporate capitalism system we have currently going, we are seeing the emergence of a new aristocracy.
 

German guy

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Yet the party structure is entrenched. Individuals come and go, but the Republocrats forever remain in power. Coupled with the corporate capitalism system we have currently going, we are seeing the emergence of a new aristocracy.

And the more government is sold out to the markets, the stronger this aristocracy becomes.
 

Morality Games

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Yet the party structure is entrenched. Individuals come and go, but the Republocrats forever remain in power. Coupled with the corporate capitalism system we have currently going, we are seeing the emergence of a new aristocracy.

Plutocracy. Aristocrat implies a person has gained their power because of an ancestor's valor on the battlefield or through some notable act of public service, and that they are entitled to the position because abilities are passed long through lineages. The merchant equivalent is plutocrat. Both are weak forms of meritocratic selection, which is, rule of the most skilled.

Weakening the government doesn't stop plutocracy. It requires informed and vigorous control on the part of the people, or representatives who genuinely care about the people, to keep the government effective, but the government must be strong.
 
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Ikari

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And the more government is sold out to the markets, the stronger this aristocracy becomes.

Indeed. But people seem to want to pin some of these outcomes on libertarian political philosophy. However it appears without the induction of libertarian values into the system. In fact, adopting some of the core libertarian values can help to fight this effect. All government will trend towards tyranny if not carefully watched and constrained. At the base of libertarian political theory is a belief in some form of minarchism. That is to say an acknowledgment that government is in some form necessary, but attempts should be made to watch and control it so that it cannot grow too far and begin to act against our rights and liberties.

You can get further in depth with the varying degrees of government involvement called for under libertarian theory, but at the heart is the following. The results of oligarchy and the rise of the aristocracy are not events isolated to the libertarian political platform.
 

Morality Games

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Indeed. But people seem to want to pin some of these outcomes on libertarian political philosophy. However it appears without the induction of libertarian values into the system. In fact, adopting some of the core libertarian values can help to fight this effect. All government will trend towards tyranny if not carefully watched and constrained. At the base of libertarian political theory is a belief in some form of minarchism. That is to say an acknowledgment that government is in some form necessary, but attempts should be made to watch and control it so that it cannot grow too far and begin to act against our rights and liberties.

You can get further in depth with the varying degrees of government involvement called for under libertarian theory, but at the heart is the following. The results of oligarchy and the rise of the aristocracy are not events isolated to the libertarian political platform.

Weakening government is no solution against oligarchic influence. Not that oligarchic influence bothers me more than popular influence.

Oligarchs grasp for power in all directions. Limiting government just creates a new kind of opportunity.
 
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Ikari

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Plutocracy. Aristocrat implies a person has gained their power because of an ancestor's valor on the battlefield or through some notable act of public service, and that they are entitled to the position because abilities are passed long through lineages. The merchant equivalent is plutocrat. Both are weak forms of meritocratic selection, which is, rule of the most skilled.

I use aristocracy more in the class sense as functionally the groups are equivalent and both our aristocracy and the aristocracy of ol' are perpetuated and proliferated through families with the greatest means.

Weakening the government doesn't stop plutocracy. It requires informed and vigorous control on the part of the people, or representatives who genuinely care about the people, to keep the government effective, but the government must be strong.

Weakening the government in general may or may not act to prevent plutocracy. However, libertarian philosophy is not to reduce government to the point in which it breaks. We're not looking to break government; merely have it operate in a more responsible manner which is respectful and protective of the rights and liberties of the individual. That being said, while we look to decrease the overreaching arm of government force against the individual; we are not looking to end all government nor all proper forms of regulation and oversight. There are places government can belong; it just must always be mindful of our rights and liberties.
 

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Government is a system that has the tendency to expand and become tyrannical, excessively using power and screw people over, if not contained by private actors.

Private actors have the tendency to expand, become plutocracies and excessively use their power, to screw people over, if not contained by government.

It's a tightrope walk, and the best we can hope for is a healthy balance. IMHO.
 

Ikari

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Government is a system that has the tendency to expand and become tyrannical, excessively using power and screw people over, if not contained by private actors.

Private actors have the tendency to expand, become plutocracies and excessively use their power, to screw people over, if not contained by government.

It's a tightrope walk, and the best we can hope for is a healthy balance. IMHO.

Indeed, and the rub is where that balance lies. The varying political philosophies will put emphasis on various areas depending on where they feel that balance is. Libertarian political philosophy is no different, our core is upon the preservation and proliferation of the rights and liberties of the individual. Everything then flows from there. There are many entities to watch, be it from the government sector, the economic sector, etc. And the interplay of these various actors have consequences upon us all. But in all the various libertarian attack threads, it's as if this seems to be an unreasonable process for our political ideology while acceptable in other forms. This thread, the traffic intersection thread, etc. are examples of dishonest or ignorant application of generalized libertarian ideals to a system in which actual libertarian models may not even drive to.

In this thread people propose that libertarian ideology drives to oligarchy; but oligarchy is already had even in the absence of applied libertarian theory. Thus it is not a product of libertarian political philosophy; but rather the evolution of government once created. Government is necessary, but also dangerous. Thus it must be controlled and restricted, which is where our (libertarian) philosophy currently focuses its efforts.

In the end, I really hate these troll/attack threads because there's never any real effort to discuss with us our foundations, our platforms, and specifically what we'd like to drive to and what we could accept. It's always some outlandish and silly thing. "libertarianism will drive to fascism" or some other crap like that. And I think a lot gets "blamed" (for lack of a better word) on libertarian philosophy. Too many people, IMO, look at our crazy section and apply that to the overall. And through the liberal use of hyperbole and propaganda lay blame unto our platform which does not rightfully belong. I believe that for many people if they'd seriously sit down and have an adult discussion of libertarian philosophy would come out for the better. Doesn't say you have to agree with it; but in the end would behoove us much more than these silly attack threads and rampant supposition.
 

Goshin

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I think someone is a little vague on what fascism is.
 
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