Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards? (1 Viewer)

[Topsez]

I think that immigrants willing to work for lesser wages than a US citizen lowers the standard of living of US citizens...

What say you?

 

[saggyjones]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

I think that immigrants willing to work for lesser wages than a US citizen lowers the standard of living of US citizens...

What say you?

Sorry, that's capitalism. I though most conservatives thought that what's good for big business is good for America? Having to pay employees less is good for big business, so why not citizens, in your opinion?

Can you explain your position more? All you say is what you believe; you don't explain why.

The Standard of living refers to the quality and quantity of goods and services available to people and the way these services and goods are distributed within a population.

Standard of living - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The standard of living is helped by these immigrants because the prices of goods and services are lower. If you're talking about unemployment, that's a different story, but standard of living is helped.

 

[Topsez]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

Sorry, that's capitalism. I though most conservatives thought that what's good for big business is good for America? Having to pay employees less is good for big business, so why not citizens, in your opinion?

Capitalism is based on selling a product or service at a profit... the ideal way to make profit is to limit costs in producing the end product.

Can you explain your position more? All you say is what you believe; you don't explain why.

Let me offer this... America cannot produce hardly any product or service as profitable as China can even considering they have to ship the product across an ocean... this is because they have workers willing to do the same labor function for less compensation than Americans are willing to do to produce the same product. Yet this condition can only exist if the Americans have something of value to trade for the product. America or any people of the world start off equally, they either have natural resources or not, they have "ideas" worth value in producing value not assoiciated with natural resources, or in other words learning or education. Absent the above we are all the same, we need to eat, we need shelter, we need transportation and those sources of labor replaced by education... If one has no land to produce food or products for shelter, or natural resources in demand such as gold, diamonds or equal value, no ideas or education then the playing field is equal to all players on earth. All compensation offered in capitalism is for food, shelter and energy or a commodity of value. If you cannot provide any of these things you may only provide a service for compensation in order that you may trade compensation for these things. If one has to compete with another person for services for compensation that is willing to provide the services for less compensation the standard of living is reduced.

The standard of living is helped by these immigrants because the prices of goods and services are lower. If you're talking about unemployment, that's a different story, but standard of living is helped.

Please explain, the immigrants of labor from Mexico for labor that replace American labor or the immigrants of India with "ideas" or brains or higher education willing to do the same tasks as an American will always cause your standard of living to deminish. It doesn't matter if you are a bricklayer that provided a service for $30 an hour and were reduced to $15 an hour or an engineer that made $200 an hour and were reduced to $100 dollars an hour by competing with someone willing to provide the same service for less you lose... please explain in what situation would you win?

 

[saggyjones]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

Capitalism is based on selling a product or service at a profit... the ideal way to make profit is to limit costs in producing the end product.

Exactly, cheaper labor = cheaper product in the end.

Let me offer this... America cannot produce hardly any product or service as profitable as China can even considering they have to ship the product across an ocean... this is because they have workers willing to do the same labor function for less compensation than Americans are willing to do to produce the same product. Yet this condition can only exist if the Americans have something of value to trade for the product. America or any people of the world start off equally, they either have natural resources or not, they have "ideas" worth value in producing value not assoiciated with natural resources, or in other words learning or education. Absent the above we are all the same, we need to eat, we need shelter, we need transportation and those sources of labor replaced by education... If one has no land to produce food or products for shelter, or natural resources in demand such as gold, diamonds or equal value, no ideas or education then the playing field is equal to all players on earth. All compensation offered in capitalism is for food, shelter and energy or a commodity of value. If you cannot provide any of these things you may only provide a service for compensation in order that you may trade compensation for these things. If one has to compete with another person for services for compensation that is willing to provide the services for less compensation the standard of living is reduced.

I think you are confused about the meaning of standard of living (definition above). Maybe you should read my posts before responding to them?

Please explain, the immigrants of labor from Mexico for labor that replace American labor or the immigrants of India with "ideas" or brains or higher education willing to do the same tasks as an American will always cause your standard of living to deminish.

Once again, personal happiness isn't standard of living.

It doesn't matter if you are a bricklayer that provided a service for $30 an hour and were reduced to $15 an hour or an engineer that made $200 an hour and were reduced to $100 dollars an hour by competing with someone willing to provide the same service for less you lose... please explain in what situation would you win?

In the standard of living category you would have cheaper goods and services because a company that can pay its employees less can afford to lower the prices of goods and services.

 

[Kandahar]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

Capitalism is based on selling a product or service at a profit... the ideal way to make profit is to limit costs in producing the end product.

Of course. That's the whole point of immigration and outsourcing. It doesn't say anything about its effects on the standard of living though.

Let me offer this... America cannot produce hardly any product or service as profitable as China can even considering they have to ship the product across an ocean... this is because they have workers willing to do the same labor function for less compensation than Americans are willing to do to produce the same product.

America is much better at producing intellectual property and high-tech products than China.

Yet this condition can only exist if the Americans have something of value to trade for the product.

Not true. Even if, in theory, China could produce every single good/service more efficiently than America could, America would still have comparative advantage in certain areas. And therefore the Chinese wouldn't bother to seriously compete with us in those areas.

America or any people of the world start off equally, they either have natural resources or not, they have "ideas" worth value in producing value not assoiciated with natural resources, or in other words learning or education. Absent the above we are all the same, we need to eat, we need shelter, we need transportation and those sources of labor replaced by education... If one has no land to produce food or products for shelter, or natural resources in demand such as gold, diamonds or equal value, no ideas or education then the playing field is equal to all players on earth.

What you seem to be saying, if I understand you correctly, is "If we were completely equal, than we'd be equal." This tautology is meaningless. Those things are NOT equal everywhere in the world.

All compensation offered in capitalism is for food, shelter and energy or a commodity of value. If you cannot provide any of these things you may only provide a service for compensation in order that you may trade compensation for these things. If one has to compete with another person for services for compensation that is willing to provide the services for less compensation the standard of living is reduced.

No. Competition makes goods and services cheaper and better. If what you say was true, there would have been no scientific innovation since capitalism started. And we'd all be worse off than people were in 1600.

Please explain, the immigrants of labor from Mexico for labor that replace American labor or the immigrants of India with "ideas" or brains or higher education willing to do the same tasks as an American will always cause your standard of living to deminish. It doesn't matter if you are a bricklayer that provided a service for $30 an hour and were reduced to $15 an hour or an engineer that made $200 an hour and were reduced to $100 dollars an hour by competing with someone willing to provide the same service for less you lose... please explain in what situation would you win?

You would "win" because it would be cheaper to purchase the services of a bricklayer or engineer.

 

[Topsez]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

If you own no natural resource or intelectual resource then you can be replaced for the lowest bidder willing to do what you do for less.

If you are a business person you hire the cheapest labor or brains and get rich... if you don't then you lose.

The republicans support cheap labor... the democrats support immigration... why, because cheap labor makes natural resource holders richer... immigrants make democrats more powerful... It is a Robin Hood clasic, let the immigrants come in with our support and lower American wages and standard of living... with the democrats supporting the movement along with the dumb, no, extremely dumb working class without natural resources in lock step the immigrants will vote... along with those who lost their standard of living ... for democrats because they will promice to rob from the guy who made the big bucks on your backs and give you a tip as they hold power.

No one can give an example of why it is a good thing to work for less... why not debate for lower minimum wage?

Edited to add:If you don't own the basics to fulfill shelter, food and comfort then you can buy it from the cheapest applicant. So if you don't own the "stuff" then you can compete with the other idiots in getting stuff and they will always do the work for less... then the party will blame the business... just as they blame big oil now they will blame your former employer then...because you are so stupid to not own property that will produce those things... the brains that make the blind man see can be bought by the lowest bidder if you don't complain... the people who supported the imported brain or labor that replaced you will promice to rob from the rich to give you a cracker to keep you quiet but the immigrant will vote in the majority that replaced you in your service.

 

[Kandahar]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

No one can give an example of why it is a good thing to work for less... why not debate for lower minimum wage?

Actually I've given you several examples of why immigration is a good thing. But you chose to ignore it all, preferring instead to stick to your talking points.

 

[saggyjones]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

If you own no natural resource or intelectual resource then you can be replaced for the lowest bidder willing to do what you do for less.

Who is you? A country or a person? Your points aren't clear at all. If I interpret correctly, you're just stating facts.

If you are a business person you hire the cheapest labor or brains and get rich... if you don't then you lose.

What's your point? Of course that's true, but how does it support your argument? Actually, it goes against it.

The republicans support cheap labor... the democrats support immigration... why, because cheap labor makes natural resource holders richer... immigrants make democrats more powerful...

But immigrants provide cheap labor, so those are closely tied. And not all democrats support immigration, just most don't support deportation. I think immigration is causing an overpopulation problem, and some measures need to be taken to stop too many people from coming illegally. Easier said than done, I know.

It is a Robin Hood clasic,

What?

let the immigrants come in with our support and lower American wages and standard of living

If you read anything I said, you would know the definition of standard of living. Look at the second post of this thread and it's right there. Cheap labor actually improves the standard of living because it makes goods and services cheaper.

with the democrats supporting the movement along with the dumb, no, extremely dumb working class without natural resources in lock step the immigrants will vote...

I'm being completely honest when I say this, I sincerely mean it. You are the most ignorant person I've ever seen on this forum, and the third most I've ever met. Believe me, I've met some ignorant people. If the working class is extremely dumb then what the **** are you? I say this for four reasons:
1. You don't read anyone else's posts, or if you do, you don't listen to them at all.
2. Your points are so obscure and extreme that even most of the conservatives on this forum don't agree with you.
3. Your points make absolutely no sense (I'm sure kandahar and others would agree).
4. You can't spell or write in correct grammar (if you're from a country that doesn't speak english primarily I'll take that one back, because it sure seems like you are).

You seem like a robot that's badly programmed to repeat buzzwords and has programmed responses to questions. Is this how you talk, too?

along with those who lost their standard of living

See above.

for democrats because they will promice to rob from the guy who made the big bucks on your backs and give you a tip as they hold power.

Yes, democrats don't like to see owners of big companies pay their employees $5 an hour and make millions of dollars for themselves while doing barely any work and running small companies out of business. If you don't like Americans losing their jobs then why support these big companies?

No one can give an example of why it is a good thing to work for less...

We have been giving examples the whole time jackass.

why not debate for lower minimum wage?

Because corporations would exploit workers. Cheaper labor is good for the standard of living to an extent, but companies that force workers who can't get a job elsewhere to work for $2 an hour is a crime (figure of speech and literally).

Edited to add:If you don't own the basics to fulfill shelter, food and comfort then you can buy it from the cheapest applicant.

I don't think the word applicant works here, but I'll take it to mean the cheapest producer or vendor of the products.

Good point. Yes, you can buy food from the supermarket, shelter from an apartment owner, etc., and comfort from your nearest furniture store. Is that the point you were trying to make? (that was sarcasm, in case you didn't catch it).

So if you don't own the "stuff" then you can compete with the other idiots in getting stuff and they will always do the work for less... then the party will blame the business... just as they blame big oil now they will blame your former employer then...because you are so stupid to not own property that will produce those things... the brains that make the blind man see can be bought by the lowest bidder if you don't complain... the people who supported the imported brain or labor that replaced you will promice to rob from the rich to give you a cracker to keep you quiet but the immigrant will vote in the majority that replaced you in your service.

Do you have a mental impairment that prevents you from making sense? Seriously, do you? If I don't get an answer to this question I'll assume you do, or that you're a robot.

 

[Jay R]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

:twocents:
I tend to think that no matter how cheap goods can possibly be produced and brought to market, the consumer has to have at least some money to buy them. The capitalist argument would be that the cheaper goods and serviced provided by the illegal workforce or by the exploitation of conditions in certain countries make up for the drops in American wages that would be necessary for American workers to continue to compete. E.g. though competing with the Chinese and Pablo the fence jumper forces blue collar Joe to take pay cuts, increase his efficiency, and accept a crappier health plan, he will benefit because goods and services, both his own and those of Pablo and the foreign concerns will be cheaper for him to access.

The problem I have with this way of thinking occurs, when Joe is laid off in favour of management hiring Pablo or shifting the job abroad. My reasoning being that Joe no longer has a job, he cannot afford the goods and services of Pablo or the Chinese, no matter how cheap they are. He has to either find a new job, preferably in the service industry or media/creative industries, which may require retraining or even qualifications that Joe does not have and cannot get (Many people like Joe are not in the position to be able to go back to college, and many employers wouldn't take them on if they did. Worplace ageism.) or worse than that he has to ask the government to support him, possibly his family too. This is a problem because as I see it, there are only so many jobs available for flipping burgers, serving at malls, and selling real estate. If Joe can't find work then he's a tax on the rest of us.

Another concern is that the work being outsourced (Or taken by Pablo) is frequently the s**tty work that gets young people, potent consumers, into their first job. Telesales is monkey work, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather it be Joe's kids doing it so they can continue consuming (despite higher costs) and earning for their own futures. Neither their father nor their government is going to be in any shape to support them when they get old (Plus of course, Indians know sweet FA about most of the stuff Brits call about).

And let's not forget that China and India have no intention of stopping at the manual industries. They are getting educated and they are getting into the high-tech industries. Pretty soon it won't just be cheap, plastic s**t that's cheaper in China. They already assemble electronic goods, soon they'll be designing the microchips that go into them as well.

I'm just not confident that the capitalist principle is in the best interests of Americans as a nation and a whole. Some will be fine some will benefit, but I think competing with certain nations is stretching the value of the free market principle beyond its limit. As an observer of politics I can't help but think that what must, eventually, matter to American politicians is going to be jobs for Americans not jobs for the Chinese. Maybe as those nations develop we'll see some changes that will sway may thinking, some unionisation, working practice reforms and a little more balance to the trade deficit. But I don't see that coming at the moment.

Just my thoughts on the issue.
[Damn, that was a bigger post than I expected. Apologies.]

 

[Spencer Collins]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

Here we go again...the jobs that "illegal immigrants" take are jobs that were once used as a safety net for low skilled "American Citizens". Once that safety net dissapears,low skilled citizens definitely lose bargaining power! It will never cease to amaze me how Americans can sell out their fellow Americans for profit! Also..what about enforcing existing laws on illegal immigrants? Do you also put profit above the law? There is no such thing as Cheap Labor..illegals are a strain on social services and schools.

Not every American has a high apptitude,many are in low skilled jobs because they will never have the skills to make a decent living.Why kick your fellow Americans to the curb to just bolster your bank account?

I have no problem with "Legal Immigrants"..at least we know who they are and where they reside. They also pose less of a security risk.

 

[Topsez]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

saggyjones
Your argument is that if products and services are cheaper then the standard of living is higher. This is true only if you are not directly competing with the cheap labor. If you are competing for employment then your standard must be lowered because you have less buying power… You were making $30 an hour doing bricks… Mexican lays bricks for $15 an hour… you must lower your charge and work more hours to earn the same wage… regardless if a new home costs less as a result of cheaper labor you still lose…

Now think who wins in the above situation? First the employer that hires the bricklayer… the other citizens who purchase homes. Who loses? The bricklayer because he could build his home and charge himself no fees for his labor and still have a cheap home. OK, I’ll acknowledge that the home prices for millions of Americans are reduced by lowering wage paid to roofers, landscapers, carpenters and so on but the wages of that entire group of Americans wages are lowered allowing them to have less of a standard of living. Yes, we have 20 million v. 300 million citizens so many benefit from the cheap labor but the loss of standard of living is impacted on a greater number of Americans than the illegal 20 million.

I said when all goods and services would be offered to cheaper labor the only winners are the employers or those who already hold natural resources. Lettuce is cheap because we use cheap labor… how could we make it even cheaper? We could replace American drivers with illegal drivers, we could replace grocers with illegal workers, we could replace cooks with illegal cooks, we could replace waitresses with illegal waitresses… you as an employer would gain but the people who used to do the jobs as citizens all lose.

Kandahar
You argue that America is much better at producing intellectual property and high-tech products than China… How many Americans produce these ideas, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, millions of Americans produce these brilliant inventions? Once invented then labor enters and off to China, Korea, Mexico and other labor markets for the labor… Who benefits from the brainpower?

Now let’s assume that we now have 20 million illegal persons in America that are displacing 20 million American workers and reducing the standard of living for entire classes of workers. Buying power is increased to those that have not yet been directly affected but what if every service was offered to the lowest bidder? Your job, be it nurse, doctor, sanitation engineer, appliance salesperson and on down the street to your benefit… If we could get 300 million illegal workers we could all stay at home and have servants living in our high standard of living as they did the dirty work now couldn’t we? We could if we were the employers but not if it was our job they took.

 

[Patrickt]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

Some people, immigrant or not, want to work and will work for a lower wage. I know quite a few immigrants illegally in the U.S. working and almost all work at competitive wages but in undesirable jobs.

Quite a few have worked in government jobs so, of course, they get standard wages, health insurange, pay taxes, and so forth. I asked a friend who worked in a hospital kitchen why so many of her co-workers will immigrants and she said, "Because, that who shows up for the jobs."

Another friend works in construction year-round. A lot of his summer and fall co-workers pack it in when winter hits.

On the other hand, all the immigrants I know were homeless. Well, homeless by U.S. standars. One who has been working for years shares an apartment with a friend. Since he'd rather have his own apartment he's homeless.

I find people who are willing to work to be rather refreshing.

 

[Topsez]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

Some people, immigrant or not, want to work and will work for a lower wage. I know quite a few immigrants illegally in the U.S. working and almost all work at competitive wages but in undesirable jobs.

In Mexico or the US? Your avatar indicates you live in Mexico...

What is an undesireable job?

Quite a few have worked in government jobs so, of course, they get standard wages, health insurange, pay taxes, and so forth. I asked a friend who worked in a hospital kitchen why so many of her co-workers will immigrants and she said, "Because, that who shows up for the jobs."

Another friend works in construction year-round. A lot of his summer and fall co-workers pack it in when winter hits.

These people displace legal workers and lower the wage of those who legally preform these jobs.

On the other hand, all the immigrants I know were homeless. Well, homeless by U.S. standars. One who has been working for years shares an apartment with a friend. Since he'd rather have his own apartment he's homeless.

I find people who are willing to work to be rather refreshing.

Yes, me too! We have many homeless here in America that may not be homeless if they could compete for some of these undesireable jobs at a rate of pay that would allow them to have a home.

 

[Kandahar]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

Kandahar
You argue that America is much better at producing intellectual property and high-tech products than China… How many Americans produce these ideas, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, millions of Americans produce these brilliant inventions?

Millions of Americans play some role in it. However, intellectual property was just an example. There are other things America is better at doing than China too.

Once invented then labor enters and off to China, Korea, Mexico and other labor markets for the labor… Who benefits from the brainpower?

Both America and China/Korea/Mexico. Economics is not a zero-sum game.

Now let’s assume that we now have 20 million illegal persons in America that are displacing 20 million American workers and reducing the standard of living for entire classes of workers. Buying power is increased to those that have not yet been directly affected but what if every service was offered to the lowest bidder? Your job, be it nurse, doctor, sanitation engineer, appliance salesperson and on down the street to your benefit… If we could get 300 million illegal workers we could all stay at home and have servants living in our high standard of living as they did the dirty work now couldn’t we? We could if we were the employers but not if it was our job they took.

Other jobs would be created to accommodate the larger work force. Think about how much the American job market has expanded over the past few decades...both from immigration and from the empowerment of women. It wasn't just a coincidence that most of those new workers were able to find jobs.

As for China eventually being more efficient than America at producing EVERYTHING...I doubt that will ever happen, but even if it did we'd still have comparative advantages in some industries.

 

[Topsez]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

Millions of Americans play some role in it. However, intellectual property was just an example. There are other things America is better at doing than China too.

I'm not an isolationist, I simply think there is an outsource frame of mind in America. The statement made by Prez Bush and others to the affect that "the distasteful jobs that Americans don't want to take" is simply not true. There is nothing such as a distasteful job if the compensation is correct for the task at hand.

Both America and China/Korea/Mexico. Economics is not a zero-sum game.

That is saying if America's workforce isn't competetive then we are subordinated to service industry jobs... Well, service and technical jobs leaving a very large sector of service jobs to be filled by Americans competing with illegal workers.

Other jobs would be created to accommodate the larger work force. Think about how much the American job market has expanded over the past few decades...both from immigration and from the empowerment of women. It wasn't just a coincidence that most of those new workers were able to find jobs.

I can remember when only the man had to go to work to support a family. Yes, TV's and American made products cost more of the disposable income but until the late sixties a person could buy a new car for under $3,000. The larger the workforce the more the waste of energy when nothing is hardly being produced... most jobs, I mean a majority of the jobs are now service industry... American workers are trading money for services for each other and only a very few Americans are producing anything at all. As China grows their economy will demand higher wages and living standards and then the cheap labor will have to be found elsewhere to feed China, Ameica and Japan's demand for cheap stuff. It is like there is a level that in the end that all people in the world will be at the exact same level of standard of living and since we started out with a higher standard we must continue to decline until we balance out with China and later Africa to find the level we all float together at.

As for China eventually being more efficient than America at producing EVERYTHING...I doubt that will ever happen, but even if it did we'd still have comparative advantages in some industries.

That really wasn't my intention to imply that... All modern nations, including China, Korea, Japan Western Europe and so on have the ability to produce but not the need as long as an alternative source of cheap labor exists. My intention is that China coupled with illegal employees will drag down our standard of living as theirs rises.

 

[Jerry]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

I think that immigrants willing to work for lesser wages than a US citizen lowers the standard of living of US citizens...

What say you?

Yes.
I can make more money in fast food then I can as an unskilled carpentry apprentice/laborer because illegal immigrant works for cheep.

The only way for me to work in my chosen field and make more money than a fast-food clerk is to have a degree. So I'm currently getting one. I'm also going to learn Spanish, for obvious reasons.

In addition to the obvious benefits of having a degree, should the market go south due to terrorism, etc, I will have the upper hand when competing with illegal’s for the same job.

 

[saggyjones]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

saggyjones
Your argument is that if products and services are cheaper then the standard of living is higher. This is true only if you are not directly competing with the cheap labor. If you are competing for employment then your standard must be lowered because you have less buying power… You were making $30 an hour doing bricks… Mexican lays bricks for $15 an hour… you must lower your charge and work more hours to earn the same wage… regardless if a new home costs less as a result of cheaper labor you still lose…

Can you read? I think you're still confused on the definition of standard of living. This is the definition:

The Standard of living refers to the quality and quantity of goods and services available to people and the way these services and goods are distributed within a population.

Cheaper labor = cheaper products = higher standard of living. If you're talking about unemployment problems, that's a different story.

Dammit you are stupid.

 

[saggyjones]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

And let's not forget that China and India have no intention of stopping at the manual industries. They are getting educated and they are getting into the high-tech industries. Pretty soon it won't just be cheap, plastic s**t that's cheaper in China. They already assemble electronic goods, soon they'll be designing the microchips that go into them as well.

I agree, China's production is dangerously rising right now. Like you said, soon we'll be importing high tech stuff along with the plastic crap.

I'm just not confident that the capitalist principle is in the best interests of Americans as a nation and a whole. Some will be fine some will benefit, but I think competing with certain nations is stretching the value of the free market principle beyond its limit. As an observer of politics I can't help but think that what must, eventually, matter to American politicians is going to be jobs for Americans not jobs for the Chinese. Maybe as those nations develop we'll see some changes that will sway may thinking, some unionisation, working practice reforms and a little more balance to the trade deficit. But I don't see that coming at the moment.

I agree with you here also. I believe socialism is a good alternative to this problem, but I don't see that happening anytime soon, if ever.

The problem with unionisation in China is that they're a communist country and don't have unions, the government controls everything. And since the US and China are both part of the World Trade Organization, we aren't allowed to put tariffs on their products (I'm not positive about that, so correct me if I'm wrong) and free trade is required, which is bad for us.

 

[saggyjones]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

Yes.
I can make more money in fast food then I can as an unskilled carpentry apprentice/laborer because illegal immigrant works for cheep.

The only way for me to work in my chosen field and make more money than a fast-food clerk is to have a degree. So I'm currently getting one. I'm also going to learn Spanish, for obvious reasons.

In addition to the obvious benefits of having a degree, should the market go south due to terrorism, etc, I will have the upper hand when competing with illegal’s for the same job.

How does that relate to the standard of living though?

 

[jamesrage]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

I think that immigrants willing to work for lesser wages than a US citizen lowers the standard of living of US citizens...

What say you?

I says yes.Why on earth would a employer want to pay an American a standard wage when they can get an illegal to do the same job for a lot less money?It is basically the same reason why companies outsource,because they can get someone to do the same job for a lot less money.The only punishment that I know for hiring illegals is a fine,not much of an incentive to obey the law if you save a **** load of money by hiring a bunch of illegals instead of Americans.

 

[Caine]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

I think that immigrants willing to work for lesser wages than a US citizen lowers the standard of living of US citizens...

What say you?

Yes, I believe that the U.S. does lose barganing power when competing with illegal immigrants.

P.S. Why are you mocking my Avatar.... Get your own and be original!

 

[Topsez]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

Can you read? I think you're still confused on the definition of standard of living. This is the definition:

The Standard of living refers to the quality and quantity of goods and services available to people and the way these services and goods are distributed within a population.

Cheaper labor = cheaper products = higher standard of living. If you're talking about unemployment problems, that's a different story.

Dammit you are stupid.

Dammit you are smart! Well smart guy at what point does Cheaper labor = cheaper products = lower standard of living? If everyone is replaced with cheaper labor that produces cheaper products and we all have lower paying jobs making cheap stuff it kind of sounds like a description of China. Heart, eye and brain surgery prices are cut in half since the current surgeons were replaced with surgeons from India... bricklayers replaced, every job replaced or lowered cannot result in a better standard of living... please explain your logic smart guy... your job is cut in half or by 30% and you say hooray, now my standard of living is increased!

 

[saggyjones]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

Dammit you are smart! Well smart guy at what point does Cheaper labor = cheaper products = lower standard of living?

Actually I wrote Cheaper labor = cheaper products = higher standard of living, but I'll assume you meant to type that. Wow, that worked out against you didn't it?

Since business owners rake in the same amount of money in profit, but pay less for labor, this allows them to set lower prices on their products and/or produce more. This improves the standard of living because it makes goods more readily available to the consumers, thus improving the standard of living.

If everyone is replaced with cheaper labor that produces cheaper products and we all have lower paying jobs making cheap stuff it kind of sounds like a description of China.

How is everyone being replaced? It's only the union workers who refuse to work for wages that immigrants accept. I'm talking about legal immigrants, not illegals. Like I've said before in this thread and the other one you started, I don't support illegal immigration and think we should take more measures to reduce it. Legal immigrants, however, have the same rights as those union workers. Why should they be excluded?

Heart, eye and brain surgery prices are cut in half since the current surgeons were replaced with surgeons from India...

How is this labor, and how many immigrants replace doctors? Hospitals, etc. are looking for skill, not cheap workers in this case.

bricklayers replaced, every job replaced or lowered cannot result in a better standard of living... please explain your logic smart guy... your job is cut in half or by 30% and you say hooray, now my standard of living is increased!

This is a different problem than standard of living, it's unemployment. Those are different things. If you have some solid evidence to refute that, I'd like to see it.

Let's say you worked in construction, and you were replaced. Then you would have less money and be unemployed, but the standard of living would still be higher for Americans in general.

What makes you think that every single immigrant who enters the country takes away a job from an American? Many job opportunities are opening because people are having less children and therefore there are less workers to fill the jobs of their parents, the baby boomers.

Among White households, 63 percent have no children under 18; for Hispanic households, the figure is 41 percent.

ERS/USDA Briefing Room - Race and Ethnicity in Rural America - Marital Status and Household Structure

There's a good graph there that shows this better than any quote I could find.

 

[Topsez]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

Actually I wrote Cheaper labor = cheaper products = higher standard of living, but I'll assume you meant to type that. Wow, that worked out against you didn't it?

Since business owners rake in the same amount of money in profit, but pay less for labor, this allows them to set lower prices on their products and/or produce more. This improves the standard of living because it makes goods more readily available to the consumers, thus improving the standard of living.



How is everyone being replaced? It's only the union workers who refuse to work for wages that immigrants accept. I'm talking about legal immigrants, not illegals. Like I've said before in this thread and the other one you started, I don't support illegal immigration and think we should take more measures to reduce it. Legal immigrants, however, have the same rights as those union workers. Why should they be excluded?



How is this labor, and how many immigrants replace doctors? Hospitals, etc. are looking for skill, not cheap workers in this case.



This is a different problem than standard of living, it's unemployment. Those are different things. If you have some solid evidence to refute that, I'd like to see it.

Let's say you worked in construction, and you were replaced. Then you would have less money and be unemployed, but the standard of living would still be higher for Americans in general.

What makes you think that every single immigrant who enters the country takes away a job from an American? Many job opportunities are opening because people are having less children and therefore there are less workers to fill the jobs of their parents, the baby boomers.



There's a good graph there that shows this better than any quote I could find.

We must first recognize reality that there are 20 million illegal persons in America doing work that could and would be done by Americans.

So, you are saying there should be no limit on the American workforce replacements that will work for lesser wages?

Some jobs are replaced by illegal workers such as factory workers, other workers are replaced by outsourcing such as when you call customer service and find you are talking to someone in India... and then there are professionals invited into the US to replace American professionals. Are you saying there is no point of diminishing standard of living should no rules be applied? If so how do you explain this?

H1B Visa Qualifying occupation categories are jobs in the fields of computer science, health care, university teaching, engineering, law, accounting, financial analysis, management consulting, architecture and scientific research positions.

The length of time that a worker can have an H1B visa is usually an initial period of up to three years. The initial H1B visa can then be extended one time for up to a combined total of six years.

Other regulatory provisions permit;
(1) the employer to request a period of less than three years,
(2) the employee to be employed on a part-time basis
(3) the employee to work for more than one US Employer simultaneously

The Number of H1B visas issued - the H1B Cap
The number of H1B visas issued each year is subject to a cap that is determined by US Congress. The cap for fiscal year 2006 is currently set at 65,000.
The H1B applications that are approved for each fiscal year receive an employment start date of October 1 (the first day of the fiscal year).

H1B - Immigration USA - Green Card - H1B Visa - USA work permit - H1BASE.com - H1-B - H-1B - Live in the USA

In your post one is left to believe that there should be no cap since legal immigrants, coupled with know illegal immigrants only benifit the standard of living. Why is there a cap? Why shouldn't the cap be at zero imports of these workers since they replace American workers or lower their wages?

 

[saggyjones]

Re: Do Illegal/Legal immigrants that work for lower wage lower US Citizen's Standards

We must first recognize reality that there are 20 million illegal persons in America doing work that could and would be done by Americans.

But why should legal immigrants be excluded from jobs? They have the same rights. I've repeatedly said that I support taking greater measures to secure our Mexican border.
To relate back to the standard of living, here's an excerpt from my last post:
Since business owners rake in the same amount of money in profit, but pay less for labor, this allows them to set lower prices on their products and/or produce more. This improves the standard of living because it makes goods more readily available to the consumers, thus improving the standard of living.

So, you are saying there should be no limit on the American workforce replacements that will work for lesser wages?

Why should legal immigrants be excluded from this? It's all part of capitalism. You're conservative, so why do you support the government getting involved in the economy?

Some jobs are replaced by illegal workers such as factory workers, other workers are replaced by outsourcing such as when you call customer service and find you are talking to someone in India... and then there are professionals invited into the US to replace American professionals. Are you saying there is no point of diminishing standard of living should no rules be applied? If so how do you explain this?

Because the standard of living is the quality and quantity of goods available. I'll post this again:
Since business owners rake in the same amount of money in profit, but pay less for labor, this allows them to set lower prices on their products and/or produce more. This improves the standard of living because it makes goods more readily available to the consumers, thus improving the standard of living.

Unemployment is a completely different thing from the standard of living. If you're talking about unemployment, yes, immigrants do cause this. But since a major conservative belief is that what's best for the big corporations is best for the country, why don't you support them having cheaper labor?

In your post one is left to believe that there should be no cap since legal immigrants, coupled with know illegal immigrants only benifit the standard of living. Why is there a cap? Why shouldn't the cap be at zero imports of these workers since they replace American workers or lower their wages?

You're question is "do immigrants that work for lower wages lower the standard of living", and the answer is yes, for reasons posted above. By cap I'm pretty sure you mean a limit on immigrants in the workforce imposed and enforced by the government, but doesn't this go against conservative beliefs of no or little government involvement in the economy?

I believe legal immigrants should have equal chances to get jobs, but illegal immigrants should be sent back to their country.