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Do Americans (in general) Suffer from Normalcy Bias?

The nice thing about that is that we are becoming an ever more productive society, producing more and more goods per hour. So the amount of production that it may have taken you to pay "your share" of the national debt might have been 25,000 hours of labor, your kids may be able to produce that much production in 2500 hours, and they will likely pass on "their share" of the national debt to your grandchildren, who will be able to pay it with just 250 labor hours, passing on "their share" of the national debt to your great grandchildren who will be able to repay it with just 25 hours of labor, on and on...
I agree with you that the easiest way to eliminate some of the problems we face is through growth. I would like to see something of a change of course with the current administration that allows the development of those industries and businesses that offer promise, energy production being one of those promising industries. Things could be done to get us growing at a more robust rate.
 
It matters to me. If there have been concessions and accommodations, they haven't amounted to much or we wouldn't be at this impasse. I have no doubt you have pet concessions you believe have been made. They haven't affected the outcome we currently face, and that's surely not completely the reason for the intractability of the right, alone. What I'm waiting for is the leader of the country to lead. Spreading fear of a default is not responsible leadership regardless of political stripe. A real leader would stand up, speak the truth, and announce that we will honor our obligations. Then he has claimed the high ground by virtue of the truth, and can invite negotiations based on that. Obama has chosen instead to come in as a hero after he has precipitated a self-proclaimed crisis in which he, and only he, is the solution. You have to admit, that's pretty child like.

That was nonsense

The concessions and accomodations have been many and large. The only time the republicans have done the same is when they were forced too.

And it's a farce to pretend that Obama has forced the situation when republicans have celebrated shutting down the govt.

 
And "house of cards" it definitely is.

I've posted this elsewhere - taken from data from the CBO and US Treaury:
View attachment 67154800

We simply cannot sustain such exponential increases in our spending. Something's gotta give... :(

I know, right! One day our runaway spending might catch up with us and we might be forced to default on all that debt we've accumulated, destroying our credit standing, and plunging the world economy into chaos and depression! That sure would be terrible, huh?

114.gif
 
I honestly don't see that happening. Our guys in the treasury are way to smart for that, they know that not paying our bond obligations will destroy the country for years if not decades.

What they will do is simply stop paying government employees, and entitlements, and possibly venders, much like they have already done only on a more grand scale. That Oct 17th deadline realistically is more like the 20th or 21st due to the current "slimdown". If we go past the 20th or 21st, the treasury will continue to redeem bonds, and will actually still be allowed to issue more bonds, in the same amount as what they redeem.

Now seeing how the treasury is part of the executive branch, what gets paid or not paid will be in the hands of Obama, who will be sure to use this special power, almost a gift given to him by tea party radicals in the House, to cause as much harm to big supporters of the republican party as possible, while minimizing it's impact on democrat supports. We've already been seeing this, so it should be a surprise to no one.

I'd imagine that since older folks tend to vote republican, social security will be the first thing not to get paid. Now when voters get angry, they tend to vote for the other party, so democrats should gain voters in the older demographic. While obviously republicans will accuse Obama of purposely targeting our retire folk, Obama can point out that it is Republicans who actually suggested cutting back on medicare and social security (just this week), and make a pretty convincing argument that it was the republicans idea to withhold social security benefits.

The second thing to be targeted will be all other entitlements. by withholding all entitlement checks (and ebt cards), it will make it easier for Obama to justify withholding social security checks. The "taker" states tend to be republican states, thus again, this will harm republicans more than it will democrats.

I would imagine that we would see large closures of military bases - mostly in republican leaning states, like mine. I live in SC, we have Parris Island, which is the marine basic training site, and Ft. Jackson is adjacent to our capital city, and is a major army basic training site. Since undoubtably we will just stop taking new recruits (rather than to "fire" combat seasoned veterins), then we will have no need for Parris Island or Ft. Jackson to remain open. A major hit to the SC economy, and another major shift in our voter base from republican to democrat.

Otherwise, just basically any payments or contracts with federal government vender corporations which give larger contributions to republicans than democrats will be the next on the hit list. The CEO's of those companies are going to be furious, and they will complain to any politicians that they "own", and put so much pressure on these republican donation receivers that they will have to cave.

This is a now win situation for conservatives, and a must win situation for democrats. I believe that we are seeing the disintegration of the republican party before our eyes. Never thought it would go down like this, I have NEVER voted for a democrat in my life.
I think we'll avoid the problem for now. After all the manufactured hype, maybe we can get down to some basic issues. We'll see as time passes, and with all the rhetoric, it's going to take a bit of time. I could easily see us drifting past the 17th without a conference of sorts. It could take that and a market drop just to force it. We'll see.
 
That was nonsense

The concessions and accomodations have been many and large. The only time the republicans have done the same is when they were forced too.

And it's a farce to pretend that Obama has forced the situation when republicans have celebrated shutting down the govt.

I think you may be confused. Earlier you admitted that a credit default is not in the cards. That's true, so exactly what is holding the government hostage? I believe it's the statements of the president's, is it not, that indicate that somehow we're all gong to suffer the tortures of the damned if the debt ceiling isn't raised. Shutting down the government at 83% of it's total employment is not a disaster, as we've seen before many times. I think you're biting your tail.
 
I think you may be confused. Earlier you admitted that a credit default is not in the cards. That's true, so exactly what is holding the government hostage? I believe it's the statements of the president's, is it not, that indicate that somehow we're all gong to suffer the tortures of the damned if the debt ceiling isn't raised. Shutting down the government at 83% of it's total employment is not a disaster, as we've seen before many times. I think you're biting your tail.

You said that Obama had precipitated this crisis. The fact is that the republicans shut down the govt.

There is no credit default crisis because, as I said, we won't default. The only crisis is the govt shutdown - caused by republicans.

And as far as the presidents statements goes, telling the truth is not "holding the govt hostage"
 
"How can so many people be so unconcerned about the staggering amount of debt with which our politicians continue to saddle us," is a question I was asked recently by a young taxpayer---to which I had no answer. I wish I did! I do know it's close to $17 trillion and climbing, and a slight increase in increase rates, which is predicted by many people, because our lenders are getting quite concerned about our inability to rein in spending, and will cost us billions more than we are currently paying, which I believe is in the $425 billion a year range. That money could be used to repair our aging infrastucture, among other things. :sigh:
Well that's simple - they've been fed a steady diet of Keynes and Krugmann in the context of socialized everything.
 
the_recruit, meet Sangha
That was nonsense
The concessions and accomodations have been many and large. The only time the republicans have done the same is when they were forced too.
And it's a farce to pretend that Obama has forced the situation when republicans have celebrated shutting down the govt.

Sangha, meet the_recruit
I know, right! One day our runaway spending might catch up with us and we might be forced to default on all that debt we've accumulated, destroying our credit standing, and plunging the world economy into chaos and depression! That sure would be terrible, huh?
114.gif


Normally I'd get remunerated for such services, but for you two, it's on the house.
 
the_recruit, meet Sangha

Sangha, meet the_recruit



Normally I'd get remunerated for such services, but for you two, it's on the house.

Your point?

I mean other than dodging a response to why you claimed the shutdown is Obama's doing when it's the republicans who have been celebrating the shutdown
 
Well that's simple - they've been fed a steady diet of Keynes and Krugmann in the context of socialized everything.

flashback.... "Hello, my name is Alice Krugman. I fell down a rabbit hole one day, and things are not much different down here than I what I believe is the absolute best way to run things!. The Red Queen shouting 'Cut their heads off' to all those who don't agree with her seems reasonable to me, too.. .How are things topside?"

Greetings, EdwinWillers. :2wave:
 
the_recruit, meet Sangha

Sangha, meet the_recruit



Normally I'd get remunerated for such services, but for you two, it's on the house.


Hey, man, thanks. Here I'll match you up too. Brick wall, Edwin. Edwin, Brick Wall.

1-122357738099Gn.jpg
 
You said that Obama had precipitated this crisis. The fact is that the republicans shut down the govt.

There is no credit default crisis because, as I said, we won't default. The only crisis is the govt shutdown - caused by republicans.

And as far as the presidents statements goes, telling the truth is not "holding the govt hostage"
I think this could go around and around for quite a while. I wasn't aware the republicans in congress had so much power. 83% of the government is up and running. If that's a crisis, then we should mourn the loss of even one federal worker with flags at half staff at all federal facilities. It's beginning to look as if the whole crisis is manufactured. I wonder who would do such a thing.
 
I think this could go around and around for quite a while. I wasn't aware the republicans in congress had so much power. 83% of the government is up and running. If that's a crisis, then we should mourn the loss of even one federal worker with flags at half staff at all federal facilities. It's beginning to look as if the whole crisis is manufactured. I wonder who would do such a thing.

The answer is obvious. It was the republicans in the House who shut down the govt

Which is why the claim that Obama precipitated this is not realistic
 
Looks like the exterior of my house! The random black in the bricks adds visual interest! :thumbs:

Ours is actually closer to this, but a couple shades lighter:

Brick Wall.jpg

I wouldn't mind it, but the wife wants me to build planters in front that match our brick and I'd rather use stone, which has much more character.
 
Ours is actually closer to this, but a couple shades lighter:

View attachment 67154860

I wouldn't mind it, but the wife wants me to build planters in front that match our brick and I'd rather use stone, which has much more character.

I have a four-foot high semi-circular planter that is the length of my porch in brick, with long stone slabs on top of the brick. It looks fantastic!
 
The answer is obvious. It was the republicans in the House who shut down the govt

Which is why the claim that Obama precipitated this is not realistic
It's odd then, that budget conferees were never appointed. Reid rejected the House conferees on the budget, and did that as late as October 1, 2013. This malarkey that the Senate offered to negotiate is just that. Reid never authorized any conferees in spite of all the rhetoric claiming the GOP rejected negotiations. The mantra from the Senate, as well as the president, has always been budget first, negotiations later, and that is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. Obama wanted this shut down, and he got it.
 
It's odd then, that budget conferees were never appointed. Reid rejected the House conferees on the budget, and did that as late as October 1, 2013. This malarkey that the Senate offered to negotiate is just that. Reid never authorized any conferees in spite of all the rhetoric claiming the GOP rejected negotiations. The mantra from the Senate, as well as the president, has always been budget first, negotiations later, and that is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. Obama wanted this shut down, and he got it.

no the democrats are argueing, end shutdown and raise debt ceiling first, budget negotiation's later.
 
no the democrats are argueing, end shutdown and raise debt ceiling first, budget negotiation's later.
Hmmm. I believe that's what I said. Anyway, I'm having a beer just now to celebrate the shutdown. Sometime soon I'll probably have a beer to celebrate the resumption of full government operation. I'm truly not too invested in either phenomenon, but I do enjoy a beer now and then. When they start shutting down breweries and distilleries, we'll have a revolution. In the meantime, I'm going to keep my powder dry, and my lips wet from time to time.
 
It's odd then, that budget conferees were never appointed. Reid rejected the House conferees on the budget, and did that as late as October 1, 2013. This malarkey that the Senate offered to negotiate is just that. Reid never authorized any conferees in spite of all the rhetoric claiming the GOP rejected negotiations. The mantra from the Senate, as well as the president, has always been budget first, negotiations later, and that is the most asinine thing I've ever heard. Obama wanted this shut down, and he got it.

No, it is clear that the republicans wanted it. I even posted a video that contained republicans saying they were happy about the shutdown and they didn't know what they wanted from the dems and the president.
 
No, it is clear that the republicans wanted it. I even posted a video that contained republicans saying they were happy about the shutdown and they didn't know what they wanted from the dems and the president.
Reid advised Obama not to negotiate. Clinton told Obama not to negotiate. Look, it is well known that the Senate and Obama have never wanted to negotiate anything in the budget they passed. When such preconditions are established, either the loyal opposition caves or simply refuses negotiations with preconditions. The GOP chose the latter. How that translates into the GOP wanting a shut down is beyond all reason. BTW, how's that roll out of Obamacare coming along? From what I've seen, I wouldn't spend another dime on it either.
 
Reid advised Obama not to negotiate. Clinton told Obama not to negotiate. Look, it is well known that the Senate and Obama have never wanted to negotiate anything in the budget they passed. When such preconditions are established, either the loyal opposition caves or simply refuses negotiations with preconditions. The GOP chose the latter. How that translates into the GOP wanting a shut down is beyond all reason. BTW, how's that roll out of Obamacare coming along? From what I've seen, I wouldn't spend another dime on it either.

You're only telling part of the story

You left out the part about how the republicans celebrated shutting down the govt, and how even the republicans blame/credit themselves for shutting down the govt

I even posted a video of them doing those things.
 
You're only telling part of the story

You left out the part about how the republicans celebrated shutting down the govt, and how even the republicans blame/credit themselves for shutting down the govt

I even posted a video of them doing those things.
I like my part. It's the part leading up to the shutdown, and not what's transpired since - mainly because what has transpired since is after the fact. Now, you and I could probably hammer out an agreement. Scrap Obamacare and the House will throw back in the $240 billion or so difference between the House and Senate versions. Simple, and everybody is happy, except maybe Obama. You have to ask yourself what one person's happiness is worth compared to the other 320 million of us. Let's shoot an email to Reid and Boehner and end it. Could even use twitter, or critter, or whatever. Personally, having solved the conflict, I think I'll have another beer.
 
I like my part.

I like facts.

It's the part leading up to the shutdown, and not what's transpired since - mainly because what has transpired since is after the fact. Now, you and I could probably hammer out an agreement. Scrap Obamacare and the House will throw back in the $240 billion or so difference between the House and Senate versions. Simple, and everybody is happy, except maybe Obama. You have to ask yourself what one person's happiness is worth compared to the other 320 million of us. Let's shoot an email to Reid and Boehner and end it. Could even use twitter, or critter, or whatever. Personally, having solved the conflict, I think I'll have another beer.

What happened leading up to the shutdown is that the dems agreed to spending cuts the repubs insisted on. In return, the repubs gave up nothing and shut down the govt anyway.

Then you wonder why the dems will no longer negotiate with the repubs.
 
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