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Dismemberment Abortion

X Factor

X Factor

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X Factor said:
It was in the news the other day. Kansas tried to ban it, but it has staunch defenders. Here's one version of the story (I tried to find one that seemed reasonably reported).

Kansas judge blocks ban on so-called 'dismemberment abortion' procedure | US news | The Guardian

Think about it. Dismemberment. Carving the developing baby up and bringing it out in pieces. I honestly don't understand how anyone's fine with it.
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Ahh come on. It doesn't make any difference, how you chop it up. Death comes quickly.
 
X Factor said:
It was in the news the other day. Kansas tried to ban it, but it has staunch defenders. Here's one version of the story (I tried to find one that seemed reasonably reported).

Kansas judge blocks ban on so-called 'dismemberment abortion' procedure | US news | The Guardian

Think about it. Dismemberment. Carving the developing baby up and bringing it out in pieces. I honestly don't understand how anyone's fine with it.
Click to expand...

What I think happens is that people are slaves to their ideology. Instead of just examining an action from the standpoint of a human being thinking about what is occurring, they place this rigid template of ideology over it in such a way that they so fear the brand of subtle ostracism they would experience from others who share this same ideology that they cannot bring themselves to thinking about the actual procedure.
 
I'm no doctor but I am assuming there is a medical reason for that method when it is the method chosen. From a non-medical perspective I am not sure why this form of abortion would be less desired than another form. We're still talking about something that hasn't developed a mind or sentience. So I am guessing it is because people think it is "icky". A medical procedure being icky is probably not the best reason to ban it.

I get that people like to personify the fetus. "It has a hand. I have a hand. It has a foot. I have a foot." But those aren’t the things that make something a person. A MIND is what makes something a person. Everything else is window dressing.
 
Gardener said:
What I think happens is that people are slaves to their ideology. Instead of just examining an action from the standpoint of a human being thinking about what is occurring, they place this rigid template of ideology over it in such a way that they so fear the brand of subtle ostracism they would experience from others who share this same ideology that they cannot bring themselves to thinking about the actual procedure.
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It does, sometimes, seem that there is no or very little criticism of anything relating to abortion by those on the pro choice side, regardless of the topic. I do also completely understand that most reasonable people on either side actually don't post in this forum.
 
X Factor said:
It does, sometimes, seem that there is no or very little criticism of anything relating to abortion by those on the pro choice side, regardless of the topic. I do also completely understand that most reasonable people on either side actually don't post in this forum.
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There is no middle ground for far too many people because they adhere to the slippery slope fallacy. Any limits on abortions for some and it's right back to back alley abortions and shaming of women. Anything short of completely outlawing it for others and we are doomed to baby murder factories.
 
X Factor said:
It was in the news the other day. Kansas tried to ban it, but it has staunch defenders. Here's one version of the story (I tried to find one that seemed reasonably reported).

Kansas judge blocks ban on so-called 'dismemberment abortion' procedure | US news | The Guardian

Think about it. Dismemberment. Carving the developing baby up and bringing it out in pieces. I honestly don't understand how anyone's fine with it.
Click to expand...
I don't think that surgical procedures should be controlled by the legislature on the basis that they're ikky. Many meat-eaters wouldn't like thinking about how lamb mince is made, either. Note also that even if the ban had come into force, the method would still have been allowed 1) if the foetus was first killed by (for example) severing the umbilical cord or 2) the woman's life of health was at significant risk, which is the case in a great many late-term abortions.

If (and all the evidence points to this being the case) the foetus has zero sense of awareness pre-20 weeks, the manner of abortion should be designed to minimise the suffering of the only person who can suffer - the woman. This method has (presumably) been designed with this in mind - to try and ban it appears to be just another attempt to make abortion harder for women.

EDIT: Post-20 weeks (22 really, but 20 to be on the absolute safe side), I have morally grey issues with abortion anyway. The rise of foetal awareness/viability/both makes for some more complex ethics. Middle ground, perhaps?
 
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BrewerBob said:
I'm no doctor but I am assuming there is a medical reason for that method when it is the method chosen. From a non-medical perspective I am not sure why this form of abortion would be less desired than another form. We're still talking about something that hasn't developed a mind or sentience. So I am guessing it is because people think it is "icky". A medical procedure being icky is probably not the best reason to ban it.

I get that people like to personify the fetus. "It has a hand. I have a hand. It has a foot. I have a foot." But those aren’t the things that make something a person. A MIND is what makes something a person. Everything else is window dressing.
Click to expand...

Not only that, but at this point this method gets used, it is NOT an elective abortion. It means there is serious issues with the pregnancy, either because of a malformed fetus, or the woman has serious health issues.
 
X Factor said:
It was in the news the other day. Kansas tried to ban it, but it has staunch defenders. Here's one version of the story (I tried to find one that seemed reasonably reported).

Kansas judge blocks ban on so-called 'dismemberment abortion' procedure | US news | The Guardian

Think about it. Dismemberment. Carving the developing baby up and bringing it out in pieces. I honestly don't understand how anyone's fine with it.
Click to expand...

I'm OK with it because it is a medical procedure that is commonly recommended as the safest form of abortion by the expert, i.e. the doctor, during that particular point in the pregnancy.
 
I have to say this whole dismemberment abortion topic is almost "porn like" to some "prolifers".

I have seem on other threads that it is clear that some think this is a usual form of abortion.

At the point this is considered...it is about the health and welfare of the mother, not the fetus which is likely either nonviable so severely damaged it does not make sense to take the woman to term.

I would like the prochoicers on the thread to answer some simple questions.3

1 - What are some usual stated medical indications for this type of abortion?

2- How frequently are these abortions performed?
 
Who cares, the result of an abortion is something dead (fetus, baby, child, whatever). The rest is just a petty detail
 
X Factor said:
It was in the news the other day. Kansas tried to ban it, but it has staunch defenders. Here's one version of the story (I tried to find one that seemed reasonably reported).

Kansas judge blocks ban on so-called 'dismemberment abortion' procedure | US news | The Guardian

Think about it. Dismemberment. Carving the developing baby up and bringing it out in pieces. I honestly don't understand how anyone's fine with it.
Click to expand...

Yup. The alternatives lead to a number of complications, and a lot of these women are getting abortions due to defects, fetal death, and pregnancy complications. Leaving it there simply leads to complications or death. Using some other method is not a good option. Dismemberment is necessary to do the least amount of trauma to the woman's body, which in many cases is already under distress. Doing other methods would amount to human experimentation, as the article says, because they are either untested or outrightly unsafe.

Only a very small percentage of women abort in the second trimester to begin with. There's a reason they're doing it that late, and usually those reasons are quite horrendous and sad.

Many of these get counted as "elective," because the woman technically has other options, such has birthing a mortally defective baby, or just hoping her body can take care of it on its own without developing sepsis. But I would argue forcing women to take one of those "choices" is fairly close to torture.

There are some other cases I've known of -- equally horrendous and sad -- where it has something to do with mental health. A woman develops an extreme psychiatric disorder due to pregnancy or rape and the medications prove too much for the fetus. Or a woman I knew who was being basically held captive in her house by her absuive partner and beaten, and that's simply how long it took her to escape for the abortion. Or teenagers who have to battle in court for their abortions, forcing them to delay it. Or any number of other things. Quite frankly, I am not wiling to destroy these women's minds and lives over someone's distaste for the method of the procedure.

I do not see a meaningful difference between vacuum aspiration, which ultimately results in a dismembered embryo on the other end, lethal tampering with a pregnancy that still kills the fetus, and dismemberment of a fetus. The pregnancy ends either way, and in many cases it doesn't end with an entact embryo/fetus. Is it just the image that's getting to you? I can understand that. It's unpleasant.

But your gore squick is not a good enough reason to deny women valid and necessary healthcare choices. Lots of things in medicine are gory.
 
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X Factor said:
It was in the news the other day. Kansas tried to ban it, but it has staunch defenders. Here's one version of the story (I tried to find one that seemed reasonably reported).

Kansas judge blocks ban on so-called 'dismemberment abortion' procedure | US news | The Guardian

Think about it. Dismemberment. Carving the developing baby up and bringing it out in pieces. I honestly don't understand how anyone's fine with it.
Click to expand...

So can we start banning other medical procedures that sound "icky" too? C-sections involve slicing up a woman's abdomen! Can we ban that too? It makes me feel uncomfortable to watch them.
 
year2late said:
I have to say this whole dismemberment abortion topic is almost "porn like" to some "prolifers".

I have seem on other threads that it is clear that some think this is a usual form of abortion.

At the point this is considered...it is about the health and welfare of the mother, not the fetus which is likely either nonviable so severely damaged it does not make sense to take the woman to term.

I would like the prochoicers on the thread to answer some simple questions.3

1 - What are some usual stated medical indications for this type of abortion?

2- How frequently are these abortions performed?
Click to expand...

I can give this a shot.

1. Most often, these kinds of abortions are done after the diagnosis of a fetal anomaly, which usually occurs around 18 to 20 weeks when imaging gets more accurate and genetic testing is available (sometimes a little sooner, if the woman has had previous pregnancy demise and is on an amped up prenatal schedule, but still only within the second trimester). It simply can't be done in the first trimester. They get counted as "elective" because the woman has other choices: She can choose to attempt to see through the pregnancy, and the outcomes of that are variable. At best, it is a very disabled child. At worst, it's sepsis and death after fetal demise. Or she can choose to have an induced labor. Probably the second most common reason is complications in the woman herself. Then you start getting into the non-medical issues, which can still be fairly severe: abuse, legal delay, etc. There are very few 2nd trimester abortions that women get under normal elective circumstances (they decided they didn't want to bare a child, and then promptly went for an abortion after making that decision).

2. 2nd trimester abortions account for about 8% of abortions. 91% in the first trimester, 1% in the third (virtually all of these are extreme medical cases). For context, that means about 2.5% of American women will ever have a second trimester abortion (about 1 out of 3 American women have had an abortion).
 
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Babylon_Drifter said:
So can we start banning other medical procedures that sound "icky" too? C-sections involve slicing up a woman's abdomen! Can we ban that too? It makes me feel uncomfortable to watch them.
Click to expand...

Does a c-section kill the woman?

It never ceases to amaze me, the cavalier attitude the pro-abortionists have towards human life. And then they are baffled at things like mass murder. Well, duh, you foster a culture of death, what do you expect?
 
Babylon_Drifter said:
So can we start banning other medical procedures that sound "icky" too? C-sections involve slicing up a woman's abdomen! Can we ban that too? It makes me feel uncomfortable to watch them.
Click to expand...

And what about brain surgery? The cut someone's skullcap off and poke around in the brain while the person is conscious! That is some Hannibal Lecter **** right there.
 
countryboy said:
Does a c-section kill the woman?
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Don't all abortions kill a fetus? Why does it matter how it is terminated? Oddly enough, pro-"lifers" arrogantly think they are more of an authority on how abortions should be performed than the doctors themselves.

It never ceases to amaze me, the cavalier attitude the pro-abortionists have towards human life. And then they are baffled at things like mass murder. Well, duh, you foster a culture of death, what do you expect?
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And it never ceases to amaze me that pro-"lifers" are the ones fostering the culture of death. Joseph Stalin and Adolph Hitler developed a "culture of life" that killed millions. Christian pro-lifers use the bible to elaborate their stance on abortion yet it contains aggressive warmongering, genocide, pillaging, plundering, wanton destruction, sexual slavery, rape, misogyny, child abuse, homophobia, unfair laws, cruel and unusual punishment, the punishment of innocents, and brutal chattel slavery.

So, please, tell me about that culture of life you are fostering!
 
Pro-aborts just want the kids dead. They don't care about the how or the why.

Case in point, the poster above.
 
X Factor said:
Think about it. Dismemberment. Carving the developing baby up and bringing it out in pieces. I honestly don't understand how anyone's fine with it.
Click to expand...

What makes you think anyone is 'fine' with it? A lot of things in life are unpleasant, difficult, painful, emotionally traumatic, but necessary. Are you 'fine' with a child having radiation for leukemia, for example? Should that be against the law?


Here's something to consider:

--no matter what the procedure, the fetus is given anesthesia and knows and feels nothing. (This is just a bull**** appeal to emotion IMO)

--women do not have this procedure casually, they are only done for medical necessity, like the mother's health or a severely defective fetus.

--having such a procedure is as dangerous and painful (and also expensive) as childbirth since that's basically what it amounts to, so again, no women just casually choose to do this. They might as well wait and give birth at that point.

Can you provide any numbers on this type of abortion that are done 'on demand,' meaning without a medical reason (mother or fetus)?
 
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Gardener said:
What I think happens is that people are slaves to their ideology. Instead of just examining an action from the standpoint of a human being thinking about what is occurring, they place this rigid template of ideology over it in such a way that they so fear the brand of subtle ostracism they would experience from others who share this same ideology that they cannot bring themselves to thinking about the actual procedure.
Click to expand...

Why dwell on the method? That's rather self-indulgent. The fetus knows and feels nothing so why falsely generate all this angst? Just over a sad and yes, horrible, picture.

As someone else wrote....how many American focus on how their meat ends up on their table?
 
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X Factor said:
It was in the news the other day. Kansas tried to ban it, but it has staunch defenders. Here's one version of the story (I tried to find one that seemed reasonably reported).

Kansas judge blocks ban on so-called 'dismemberment abortion' procedure | US news | The Guardian

Think about it. Dismemberment. Carving the developing baby up and bringing it out in pieces. I honestly don't understand how anyone's fine with it.
Click to expand...

Well the end results are the same. And the fetus isn't considered human life, it's considered to be property.
 
Gardener said:
There is no middle ground for far too many people because they adhere to the slippery slope fallacy. Any limits on abortions for some and it's right back to back alley abortions and shaming of women. Anything short of completely outlawing it for others and we are doomed to baby murder factories.
Click to expand...

There's no need for limits. Canada has none and has fewer abortions than the US.

Late term abortions are very rare and those are almost all for medical necessity (mother's health or severely defective fetus). How many are 'elective?' I'm not aware of any. Or would you make them illegal anyway despite the risks to the mother?
 
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