Disgusted With US Foreign Policies, Defense Contractor Quits.

[Wiggen]

Actually it's simplistic logic to the extreme. But I don't expect less from the neo-cons.

Nothing simplistic about it. And you know it. You oppose building safe vehicles for American soldiers and then shake your head in wonder when somebody equates that with not supporting the troops. :lamo

 

[Wiggen]

Call him what you will, but clearly he has a strong conscience, and the courage of his convictions. Bravo, I say.

He looks like a real intellectual, too.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Where do you get your definition?

That is the commonly accepted definition that the military and defense industry uses.

Otherwise, how do you differentiate between an actual contractor, and the janitorial staff?

Come on, this is not rocket science here.

And why do you continue to ignore that he was not any kind of engineer, but only a "low level clerk", by his own words.

Are you continue to tap dance around everything simply because you do not like it?

 

[cpwill]

Call him what you will, but clearly he has a strong conscience, and the courage of his convictions. Bravo, I say.

On that he deserves credit. It takes alot (though if he really is an engineer, less) to quit your job in this economy because of your convictions.

 

[Oozlefinch]

On that he deserves credit. It takes alot (though if he really is an engineer, less) to quit your job in this economy because of your convictions.

He is not. I invite you to look at his resume (it is available on LINKEDIN), and then his own Manifesto, where he describes himself as "only a clerk".

I bet he was an Admin Weenie, basically approving (or mostly denying) our requests for more paperclips, because he felt we went over our annual quota of them.

Business Major in college, MBA is Finance, does he sound like any kind of "engineer" at all to you?

 

[cpwill]

He is not. I invite you to look at his resume (it is available on LINKEDIN), and then his own Manifesto, where he describes himself as "only a clerk".

I bet he was an Admin Weenie, basically approving (or mostly denying) our requests for more paperclips, because he felt we went over our annual quota of them.

Business Major in college, MBA is Finance, does he sound like any kind of "engineer" at all to you?

Nope. So if he is lower skilled, then that reduces his ability to find decent follow-on employment.

:shrug: I don't know anything about his MOS. I stand by my argument that what he says is mostly banal tripe and that he himself is incapable of lending any moral authority to that tripe, but :shrug: the dude still quit his job with high unemployment. He at least seems to deserve credit for actually believing what is tripping out of his mouth.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Nope. So if he is lower skilled, then that reduces his ability to find decent follow-on employment.

:shrug: I don't know anything about his MOS. I stand by my argument that what he says is mostly banal tripe and that he himself is incapable of lending any moral authority to that tripe, but :shrug: the dude still quit his job with high unemployment. He at least seems to deserve credit for actually believing what is tripping out of his mouth.

Which I am sure will do him a lot of good now, considering he lives in Detroit.

Now I may be wrong, but are they not in some kind of financial trouble now?

 

[BMCM]

Where do you get your definition?

25 years of Military service dealing with defense contractors.
Google " what is a defense contractor"

Defense contractor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What is defense contractor? - Definition from WhatIs.com
A defense contractor is any person who enters into a contract with a federal government of the United States for the production of material or for the performance of services for national defense.

There's lots of info on what a defense contractor is. The company "Oshkosh" is a defense contractor but the employees of Oshkosh are not.

 

[Morality Games]

Is it even possible for a major corporation to 'get a soul'?

To some degree, although Wall Street's cultural norms tend to undermine such efforts.

StarBucks and Costco make decent efforts at giving their employees living wages, paying producers fairly, reducing their environmental impact, and not abusing consumers.

Walmart does not.

The thing about major corporations (like any organization) is that their collective behaviors and goals are heavily affected by those personalities and values of the top brass.

 

[solletica]

As the bloated State continues to grow, we start to see more people within the system pushing back. Kudos for Brandon Toy for making this tough decision.

The title of the thread is wrong. GD is an offense contractor.

 

[Geoist]

Yet your opening post says the opposite.

I said 'Kudos to Brandon Toy' and you interpret that as an 'orgasmic' reaction?! :lamo

You admire some junior level operator who decided he was no longer willing to work on providing safe vehicles for U.S. Servicemen.

I admire his action. Don't worry, those vehicles will still get built without him.

Any time somebody uses the phrase 'neo-Imperialist policies' when referring to the United States they self identify themselves as Far Left extremists who are embarrassed to be americans.

This is what gets me: How does one interpret criticism for the government to be = to criticizing America/ns? Have you never criticized the govt before? Do you believe the govt can do no wrong? Is the govt your GOD?

 

[Geoist]

25 years of Military service dealing with defense contractors.
Google " what is a defense contractor"

Defense contractor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What is defense contractor? - Definition from WhatIs.com
A defense contractor is any person who enters into a contract with a federal government of the United States for the production of material or for the performance of services for national defense.

There's lots of info on what a defense contractor is. The company "Oshkosh" is a defense contractor but the employees of Oshkosh are not.

You must have missed this part of the Wiki entry: "A defense contractor (or security contractor) is a business organization or individual that provides products or services to a military or intelligence department of a government."

Do you have proof that those who work for defense contractor companies (and work directly with products and services for the military) are not covered under contract as well with the govt?

 

[Geoist]

Nothing simplistic about it. And you know it. You oppose building safe vehicles for American soldiers and then shake your head in wonder when somebody equates that with not supporting the troops. :lamo

I oppose participating in wars and foreign policies I disagree with. There are other ways to support the troops besides sending them off to die in a desert.

 

[DDD]

I think Toy betrayed for he was not given his desired position. He mentions of "dashed hopes." Wonder what really happened back there?

 

[Geoist]

That is the commonly accepted definition that the military and defense industry uses.

Otherwise, how do you differentiate between an actual contractor, and the janitorial staff?

You differentiate this way: if I provide goods and services for the military then I am a defense contractor. If I sweep floors then I'm not.

And why do you continue to ignore that he was not any kind of engineer, but only a "low level clerk", by his own words. Are you continue to tap dance around everything simply because you do not like it?

I have not ignored anything. There are several posts in this thread and other threads I have neglected due to work, wife, and family. Only had time to be on a short bit yesterday (not nearly enough to bother arguing semantics). Finally had enough time starting today.

But anyways, a "low level clerk" can mean a lot of things, and it certainly does not mean he did not provide goods/services for the military. Despite your claim in another post, he did call himself a "defense contractor."

 

[BMCM]

You must have missed this part of the Wiki entry: "A defense contractor (or security contractor) is a business organization or individual that provides products or services to a military or intelligence department of a government."

Do you have proof that those who work for defense contractor companies (and work directly with products and services for the military) are not covered under contract as well with the govt?

If those individuals have an individual contract with the military or intelligence department of a government then they are in fact considered a defense contractor. Wit out an individual contract they are just an employee of the defense contractor.

[/QUOTE]Do you have proof that those who work for defense contractor companies (and work directly with products and services for the military) are not covered under contract as well with the govt?[/QUOTE]

A defense contractor is responsible for the entire end product, every nut.bolt,weld,weapon system,radar and so on. The person doing the welding is responsible only for the weld they put down. They are an employee of the defense contractor. The welder is covered by a very small portion of the contract that deals with the welds, however they are not responsible directly to the DOD they are directly responsible to the defense contractor. If that welder's signature is on the contract then he/she would be a defense contractor, otherwise they are just an employee or the defense contractor.

If you have anything that states otherwise, please present it.

 

[Geoist]

If those individuals have an individual contract with the military or intelligence department of a government then they are in fact considered a defense contractor. Wit out an individual contract they are just an employee of the defense contractor.

A defense contractor is responsible for the entire end product, every nut.bolt,weld,weapon system,radar and so on. The person doing the welding is responsible only for the weld they put down. They are an employee of the defense contractor. The welder is covered by a very small portion of the contract that deals with the welds, however they are not responsible directly to the DOD they are directly responsible to the defense contractor. If that welder's signature is on the contract then he/she would be a defense contractor, otherwise they are just an employee or the defense contractor.


If you have anything that states otherwise, please present it.

Tbh, all definitions I have come across have been very general with little details. What I do know is that Toy referred to himself as a defense contractor, which makes sense as he performed services to benefit the military. Whether he was under direct contract with US govt I don't know. Honestly, though, the semantics debate veers away from the official point of the thread.

I am curious about the sources of your explanations, though.

 

[Thoreau72]

Tbh, all definitions I have come across have been very general with little details. What I do know is that Toy referred to himself as a defense contractor, which makes sense as he performed services to benefit the military. Whether he was under direct contract with US govt I don't know. Honestly, though, the semantics debate veers away from the official point of the thread.

I am curious about the sources of your explanations, though.

Sometimes when trying to defend a particularly silly position, a person must make it about semantics, while disregarding the substance of the topic. :mrgreen:

 

[Oozlefinch]

You differentiate this way: if I provide goods and services for the military then I am a defense contractor. If I sweep floors then I'm not.

I have not ignored anything. There are several posts in this thread and other threads I have neglected due to work, wife, and family. Only had time to be on a short bit yesterday (not nearly enough to bother arguing semantics). Finally had enough time starting today.

But anyways, a "low level clerk" can mean a lot of things, and it certainly does not mean he did not provide goods/services for the military. Despite your claim in another post, he did call himself a "defense contractor."

No, you only want to accept your own definition, regardless of what many of us (who are actually familiar with what a Defense Contractor is), and this has become a joke.

And you keep going on about "you can't prove I am wrong". You can't prove you are right either, which is even more important. Sorry, this is a complete and utter logic fail. Look, I say I can jump from my chair to New York. And you can't prove that I can't do that, therefore I can!

Look, he himself said he was only a "low level clerk". Clerks generally do not provide much of anything to anybody. Especially low level ones.

Why can't you just admit it, this is nothing like what you have tried to make it out to be, and move on? The more this goes on, the more I am sure it is a Tawana Brawley and nothing more then that.

 

[Wiggen]

I said 'Kudos to Brandon Toy' and you interpret that as an 'orgasmic' reaction?! :lamo



I admire his action. Don't worry, those vehicles will still get built without him.



This is what gets me: How does one interpret criticism for the government to be = to criticizing America/ns? Have you never criticized the govt before? Do you believe the govt can do no wrong? Is the govt your GOD?

I've criticized my government in the past. I've never used the phrase 'neo-Imperialistic policies' before and never will. Its one of those far left jingoistic phrases that identifies the user of it for exactly what he is.

 

[Wiggen]

I oppose participating in wars and foreign policies I disagree with. There are other ways to support the troops besides sending them off to die in a desert.

Tell us how you support the troops, since obviously sending them off to fight wars - which will happen regardless of your personal feelings - in vehicles designed to give the a chance to survive IED's isn't one of them.
You celebrate the fact that some clown has decided he's not going to do that, and then wonder why people might question your 'support' of the troops.

Look, we all understand that Libertarians all loathe government. We get it. At least be honest about it.

 

[Oozlefinch]

I've criticized my government in the past. I've never used the phrase 'neo-Imperialistic policies' before and never will. Its one of those far left jingoistic phrases that identifies the user of it for exactly what he is.

To be fair, I hear the same kind of things parroted from the Far Right Loosertarians as well. So it is not all "Leftists" that think like this.

And when these types of people go off on their anti-military rants, it honestly makes me chuckle because they are absolutely clueless as to why I could possibly reject them.

 

[Wiggen]

True. I almost edited my post to say Far Left and Far Right. In many cases, there's not a dime's worth of difference between them.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

I just think these threads are useless, and fail to make the point that the OP thinks they are making. It's like when someone posts a thread centered around "look this rich guy says we should increase taxes!" The fact that someone who works for General Dynamics decides he wishes to oppose U.S. foreign policy no more validates the opposition to U.S. foreign policy than the rich guy validates a tax increase - these people rarely bring new information to light, only present it through atypical sources.

There is no "discussion" to contribute to, it's people attempting to argue that their stance has greater validity because of the agreement of another individual whose position breaks stereotype. :shrug: I see your contractor and raise you however many other contractors and active duty members that you please.

Well said.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

To be fair, I hear the same kind of things parroted from the Far Right Loosertarians as well. So it is not all "Leftists" that think like this.

And when these types of people go off on their anti-military rants, it honestly makes me chuckle because they are absolutely clueless as to why I could possibly reject them.

I can relate. I may be a progressive, but I also well understand why the military does much of what it does even though it infuriates my fellow progressives - twenty years on the inside will give a guy such understanding. My fellow progressives get ticked off when I stick up for the military and nuclear power and how Manning and Snowden are traitors, but there's no one side that's right all the time.

Unless it's me, of course - reminds me of a retired Marine who used to joke that he thought he'd know everything by the time he was 30, but he found out he was wrong because he knew it all by the time he was 25. Then he'd look at me with a straight face and say, "See, I taught you everything I know and ya still don't know nothin'!" I wonder if he - a hard conservative - knew even then that I was going to one day leave the conservative fold and turn into a far-left liberal progressive tree-hugging peacenik...maybe he did. Smart guy, he was.