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Disgusted With US Foreign Policies, Defense Contractor Quits.

Brandon Toy was man engineering project manager for the Stryker Program. Hardly a janitor or secretary.

Agreed. However, the definition that you have defended here makes no such distinction. You simply argued "he works for a company that sells stuff to the Defense Department" = "he is a defense contractor".
 
Agreed. However, the definition that you have defended here makes no such distinction. You simply argued "he works for a company that sells stuff to the Defense Department" = "he is a defense contractor".

By definition he was a defense contractor. No one has demonstrated otherwise.
 
"Lowly cog" or not, he witnessed firsthand how corrupt our system is.

:lamo No he didn't. He simply spouts off a bunch of stuff you could find on any libertarian blog. As you point out - he was an engineer that worked on a vehicle. His life was full of issues like "How do I get the composite materials down to a certain weight per square inch?", not "how do I violate the rights of American citizens and murder innocents abroad without getting caught".

And Snowden was a high school dropout yet ended up making six figures with access to national secrets. So what? Everyone started somewhere.

Yeah..... Snowden.... is not going to be a good reference here.
 
defense contractor
A defense contractor is any person who enters into a contract with a federal government of the United States for the production of material or for the performance of services for national defense.

What is defense contractor? - Definition from WhatIs.com

So... not this guy, then. As he did not enter into a contract with a federal government, but rather with General Dynamic.
 
Maybe your conservative sources should be getting on the ball and exposing this guy for what he truly is.

why? He's a nobody with nothing important to say or add.
 
:lamo No he didn't. He simply spouts off a bunch of stuff you could find on any libertarian blog. As you point out - he was an engineer that worked on a vehicle. His life was full of issues like "How do I get the composite materials down to a certain weight per square inch?", not "how do I violate the rights of American citizens and murder innocents abroad without getting caught".

You obviously did not watch the video.

Yeah..... Snowden.... is not going to be a good reference here.

Its a perfect reference. The man dropped out of high school yet ended up with a cushy position making six figures.
 
So... not this guy, then. As he did not enter into a contract with a federal government, but rather with General Dynamic.

So no one who works in General Dynamic is a defense contractor? :roll:
 
why? He's a nobody with nothing important to say or add.

Do you say that to all your friends who served in the military? :lol:
 
Do you say that to all your friends who served in the military? :lol:

:shrug: so long as it's true, yeah. None of us are particularly special. Those of us with access to classified information could make news for ourselves by betraying our nation, I suppose, and it might "add" stuff, but nothing particularly amazing, and it wouldn't exactly be worth it. But this guy is a nobody, and he has not said anything important or new - one could have gotten the same answers from any libertarian/left-wing blog or board as he gave.
 
So no one who works in General Dynamic is a defense contractor? :roll:

:shrug: I didn't say that. The standard that you set up was that anyone who works in General Dynamic is a defense contractor. If you want to qualify that earlier discussion, fine, qualify away.
 
why? He's a nobody with nothing important to say or add.

So Joe Average American's views and opinions don't count? People like you have always been on the wrong side of history. Too bad more "nobodies" didn't stand up to or speak out against Stalin, Nazis, the British Empire, and on and on.

The US has overthrown no less than 13 governments in the last century, half of these were democratically elected governments who decided to nationalize their own resources and industries and that the US replaced with tin pot dictators who were some of the most abusive of human rights, often in the name of commercial interests.

We are operating our foreign policy rooted in the Wolfowitz doctrines, regardless of which party is in power. We have a military industrial complex that is heavily vested in these doctrines of perpetual war to the tune of at least 1/3rd of our national budget, energy/resource industrial complex that stakes claims on the sovereign resources of other countries...

In the entirety of human history, there is not one case of a super power who has waged wars of conquest to gain or maintain dominance at the expense of foreign powers and their people that did not eventually turn on it's own people. This is EXACTLY the reason every single founder warned against having a perpetual standing army as being far more dangerous to our liberties than any foreign threat.

This is not opinion, it's historical fact, historical constant. It hasn't changed in 5000 years because human nature has not changed within that time. The best we could do to counter this human nature was to construct a gov't model full of checks and balances, and empowering every nobody with a voice not to be silenced by those in power.

Cheers to all the nobodies out there taking a stand!
 
So Joe Average American's views and opinions don't count?

Sure they count. They get to vote. So does this guy - and if he wants to he can even start his own blog little blog and rant about how special he is because he stopped working as an engineer for a particular company because he didn't like one of the company's customers. You appear to be mistaking "average" for "nonexistent". That doesn't make him special. He remains (in the context of whether or not his actions come with any additional moral weight that should have impact on the rest of us) nobody that the media should get worked up about, as he has nothing important to say or add.

Cue hyperbolic reactive rant.....

People like you have always been on the wrong side of history. Too bad more "nobodies" didn't stand up to or speak out against Stalin, Nazis, the British Empire, and on and on.

now. :)

Hey, don't forget. If you donate $50, you get a free hat!

wpid-polls_ron_paul_tin_foil_hat_256x300_2443_657824_poll_xlarge1.jpeg

...The US has overthrown no less than 13 governments in the last century, half of these were democratically elected governments who decided to nationalize their own resources and industries and that the US replaced with tin pot dictators who were some of the most abusive of human rights, often in the name of commercial interests.

We are operating our foreign policy rooted in the Wolfowitz doctrines, regardless of which party is in power. We have a military industrial complex that is heavily vested in these doctrines of perpetual war to the tune of at least 1/3rd of our national budget, energy/resource industrial complex that stakes claims on the sovereign resources of other countries...

In the entirety of human history, there is not one case of a super power who has waged wars of conquest to gain or maintain dominance at the expense of foreign powers and their people that did not eventually turn on it's own people. This is EXACTLY the reason every single founder warned against having a perpetual standing army as being far more dangerous to our liberties than any foreign threat.

This is not opinion, it's historical fact, historical constant. It hasn't changed in 5000 years because human nature has not changed within that time. The best we could do to counter this human nature was to construct a gov't model full of checks and balances, and empowering every nobody with a voice not to be silenced by those in power.

Cheers to all the nobodies out there taking a stand!

:yawn:
 
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Sure they count. They get to vote. So does this guy - and if he wants to he can even start his own blog little blog and rant about how special he is because he stopped working as an engineer for a particular company because he didn't like one of the company's customers. You appear to be mistaking "average" for "nonexistent". That doesn't make him special. He remains (in the context of whether or not his actions come with any additional moral weight that should have impact on the rest of us) nobody that the media should get worked up about, as he has nothing important to say or add.
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First, I'm not saying he's "special". That's your dismissive label. I'm fine with him being Joe Nobody.

Second, our participation in the political process does not begin and end with the vote. We have a voice. We have a right to redress of grievances. We have a right to protest. And we have a right to speak freely within a free press.

You can dismiss one person out of hand if you like, but the fact is that there is a groundswell building amongst us "nobodies". And if you don't understand the massive impact we nobodies can have, you need to take a closer look at history... starting the magna carta, then with our own revolution, the french revolution, right up to the revolutions happening right across the arab world.

Again, you are on the wrong side of history... but then, if you are ignorant of it, you can remain blissfully unaware and blithely dismissive.
 
:shrug: so long as it's true, yeah. None of us are particularly special. Those of us with access to classified information could make news for ourselves by betraying our nation, I suppose, and it might "add" stuff, but nothing particularly amazing, and it wouldn't exactly be worth it. But this guy is a nobody, and he has not said anything important or new - one could have gotten the same answers from any libertarian/left-wing blog or board as he gave.

It appears to me that you do not know the difference between a nation and its government. They are not the same thing. A country and its government are 2 separate entities, but one goal of propaganda is to conflate the 2, so that uninformed people will make statements like yours.
 
Please explain how he wasn't a defense contractor. Because others have only thrown red herrings so far.

Semantics is what it's all about in the propaganda business.

Assange is not a journalist, he's a kook. Manning is not a whistleblower, he's a traitor. Snowden is not a whistleblower, he's a traitor.

And so it goes for the nonstop propaganda effort and its various practitioners.
 
:lamo No he didn't. He simply spouts off a bunch of stuff you could find on any libertarian blog. As you point out - he was an engineer that worked on a vehicle.

That I seriously question, especially knowing that his Bachelors and Masters were both in Business and Finance, not in any kind of Engineering discipline.

After all, how much "engineering" is involved in being a "Sanitation Engineer"?

:shrug: I didn't say that. The standard that you set up was that anyone who works in General Dynamic is a defense contractor. If you want to qualify that earlier discussion, fine, qualify away.

And this is where I basically left. Geo's position is that anybody who works for a company that contracts with the military is a "Defense Contractor", and he refuses to move off of that position. So when somebody who insists that everybody from the parking garage guard to the landscaper at General Dynamics is a "Defense Contractor", all I can do is shake my head and walk away.

As you are well aware, I detest these debates with politically biased individuals. And I have learned long ago that it is pointless to debate with a Libertarian.

libertarian-argue.american-apparel-unisex-fitted-tee.black.w760h760.jpg


So Joe Average American's views and opinions don't count?

Nobody is saying that. But this is just that, the opinion of an average person. I have my own beliefs, should my little "Why I hate civilians" rant from a few months ago be plastered all over the news and newspapers and blogs?

No, of course not. But some people love to make big deals out of nothing.

Semantics is what it's all about in the propaganda business.

Assange is not a journalist, he's a kook. Manning is not a whistleblower, he's a traitor. Snowden is not a whistleblower, he's a traitor.

And so it goes for the nonstop propaganda effort and its various practitioners.

Actually, you are not all that far off. But this has not a thing to do with what happened.

And no, Manning and Snowden are not "whistleblowers". Would somebody involved in the Manhattan Project have been a whistleblower if they had gone to the press in January 1945 and told about how much money had been wasted on a Uranium Bomb been a whistleblower as well?

Manning and Assange are not whistleblowers because that was never their intention. Manning went through classified material with a shovel, then simply flung it all at another person to be published, with absolutely no discrimination. Yes, if he had released one or two of those items all by themselves I could accept that whistleblower definition. But he did not, he pretty much copied everything he could get his hands on and threw it on the Internet, that is not the same thing at all.

And the same with Mr. Assange. He is an Anarchist who believes that everything should be public, and has released everything from confidential banking information to credit card and personal information in the belief that everything should be public, no secrets at all. I see him as nothing more then an anarchist extortionist. That is not whistleblowing at all.

Not much different with Mr. Snowden. He is now a "man without a country", somebody who passed along confidential information and now is not wanted anywhere. Every country he has gone to has basically told him to take a hike, and even Russia is having serious second thoughts about keeping him.
 
So Joe Average American's views and opinions don't count? People like you have always been on the wrong side of history. Too bad more "nobodies" didn't stand up to or speak out against Stalin, Nazis, the British Empire, and on and on.

The US has overthrown no less than 13 governments in the last century, half of these were democratically elected governments who decided to nationalize their own resources and industries and that the US replaced with tin pot dictators who were some of the most abusive of human rights, often in the name of commercial interests.

We are operating our foreign policy rooted in the Wolfowitz doctrines, regardless of which party is in power. We have a military industrial complex that is heavily vested in these doctrines of perpetual war to the tune of at least 1/3rd of our national budget, energy/resource industrial complex that stakes claims on the sovereign resources of other countries...

In the entirety of human history, there is not one case of a super power who has waged wars of conquest to gain or maintain dominance at the expense of foreign powers and their people that did not eventually turn on it's own people. This is EXACTLY the reason every single founder warned against having a perpetual standing army as being far more dangerous to our liberties than any foreign threat.

This is not opinion, it's historical fact, historical constant. It hasn't changed in 5000 years because human nature has not changed within that time. The best we could do to counter this human nature was to construct a gov't model full of checks and balances, and empowering every nobody with a voice not to be silenced by those in power.

Cheers to all the nobodies out there taking a stand!

This post is filled with the grossest generalizations salted with a healthy amount of righteous indignation.

"The US has overthrown no less than 13 governments in the past half century, half of whom we're democratically elected."

Is one of those things that gets tossed around on the internet all the time. But it's not nearly as true or as dire as it sounds. The reality, as is usually the case, is more complicated than a platitude like that. The United States has waged aggressive intelligence campaigns over the past century for a variety of reasons, many of them perfectly defensible and laudable. Were regimes 'toppled' by the United States? Occasionally, but it is rarer than proponents care to admit. More often than not US efforts were ancillary to domestic instigators who carried off their plans with minimal US assistance, or would have done so with or without said assistance. Syria, Guatemala, Indonesia, etc are examples of this. The amount of regimes the US actually 'overthrew' is relatively minor, and it always diminishes the greater role played by local agitators.

"We are operating our foreign policy rooted in the Wolfowitz doctrines, regardless of which party is in power."

Since when have we been operating under this doctrine and what is this doctrine? We've had a flurry of Presidents, foreign policy pivots, and security re-assessments since the end of the Cold War and this is a fairly bold position to be staking out. Sure there have been general themes such as support for democracy promotion and safeguarding of US/Democratic power where possible but these are the broadest of possible themes.

"In the entirety of human history, there is not one case of a super power who has waged wars of conquest to gain or maintain dominance at the expense of foreign powers and their people that did not eventually turn on it's own people."

This is exceedingly general. Did Rome 'turn' on its citizens because of it's expansionary wars? Is that why the Republic fell? Or was it because of agricultural friction, populist politics, ingrained patrician rule, and the technological deficiencies of a large organized society in the age of antiquity? For that matter did the British Empire ever 'turn' on its citizens? At the zenith of it's Imperial glory Britain also reached a hey-day of progressivism and democratic reform. If not for two crushing World War's history might have looked very different.

The list could go on with each case being specific and complicated.


This is not opinion, it's historical fact, historical constant. It hasn't changed in 5000 years because human nature has not changed within that time.


But it is opinion, it's certainly not historical fact.

If human nature hasn't become constrained by social and political order in the past 5,000 years then whence came all of our social reforms (the abolition of slavery, the liberation of women) and how do you account for the drastic reduction in violence, crime, and social ills over the past two or three centuries? 'Human Nature' is contingent upon whatever environment it is thrust into and what tools we give ourselves. This is debatable of course, but it is again more complicated than your generalization.
 
Actually, you are not all that far off. But this has not a thing to do with what happened.

And no, Manning and Snowden are not "whistleblowers". Would somebody involved in the Manhattan Project have been a whistleblower if they had gone to the press in January 1945 and told about how much money had been wasted on a Uranium Bomb been a whistleblower as well?

The Manhattan Project didn't violate our constitutional protections. It wasn't involved in torture. However, it was involved in abuses of civilian populations. There were aspects of that program that were outed, such as the deliberate release of radiation on small population centers without their knowledge for which the gov't was made to account for. So on one level your analogy completely missed the mark, on another it completely fails.
 
More often than not US efforts were ancillary to domestic instigators who carried off their plans with minimal US assistance, or would have done so with or without said assistance. Syria, Guatemala, Indonesia, etc are examples of this. The amount of regimes the US actually 'overthrew' is relatively minor, and it always diminishes the greater role played by local agitators.

Some of this is true, but some of it is not...it's rather like a shotgun blast in the dark, in which the target is hit...but much else besides.

I'd take issue particularly with Indonesia. First of all, whether or not they would have behaved as massive, murderous state terrorists without US help is dubious...they virtually asked permission (which was promptly given by Ford and Kissinger...long suspected, but now known for sure thanks to declassified records)...and they were in fact dependent on foreign weaponry, the US's by far in the lead.

At any rate, are you really downplaying intentional, material Western support for two decades of mass murder that eclipses anything that, say, Hamas or Hezbollah have been able to muster, and by a serious magnitude? Are you saying that supporting and arming state terror and murder is a "meh" moment...because the Indonesian Generals might have acted in such a manner anyway?
 
:shrug: so long as it's true, yeah. None of us are particularly special. Those of us with access to classified information could make news for ourselves by betraying our nation, I suppose, and it might "add" stuff, but nothing particularly amazing, and it wouldn't exactly be worth it. But this guy is a nobody, and he has not said anything important or new - one could have gotten the same answers from any libertarian/left-wing blog or board as he gave.

I seriously don't think you would tell your army buddies they are "nobodies." Especially in reference to their service.
 
:shrug: I didn't say that. The standard that you set up was that anyone who works in General Dynamic is a defense contractor. If you want to qualify that earlier discussion, fine, qualify away.

He worked on products for the military through the company. He was a defense contractor. There's no skirting around it.
 
This post is filled with the grossest generalizations salted with a healthy amount of righteous indignation.

"The US has overthrown no less than 13 governments in the past half century, half of whom we're democratically elected."

Is one of those things that gets tossed around on the internet all the time. But it's not nearly as true or as dire as it sounds. The reality, as is usually the case, is more complicated than a platitude like that.

No kidding.... you don't say... Did you expect me to lay out a five hundred page book detailing the abuses of US power? Give me a break. The rest is pure opinion on your part. However, what you didn't address was most telling. It is incredibly well documented that we installed and supported brutal dictators in countries we played a primary role in overthrowing. But, if you want to play a game of cite the source, I'll gladly play.

"We are operating our foreign policy rooted in the Wolfowitz doctrines, regardless of which party is in power."

Since when have we been operating under this doctrine and what is this doctrine? We've had a flurry of Presidents, foreign policy pivots, and security re-assessments since the end of the Cold War and this is a fairly bold position to be staking out. Sure there have been general themes such as support for democracy promotion and safeguarding of US/Democratic power where possible but these are the broadest of possible themes.

So in short, you're clueless and so whitewash with your limited understanding. No, I'm not talking about broad themes, I'm speaking of a very specific roadmap that we have followed nearly to the letter. You accuse me of gross generalizations and then show such a shallow understanding of long range of foreign policy in play since 1976. Yes, there have been changes in presidents, congressional leadership.. but this is nothing but theater, as is the foreign policy "pivots". This can be clearly shown thanks to the memos leaked by Manning, which is just corroboration of other evidences.

"In the entirety of human history, there is not one case of a super power who has waged wars of conquest to gain or maintain dominance at the expense of foreign powers and their people that did not eventually turn on it's own people."

This is exceedingly general. Did Rome 'turn' on its citizens because of it's expansionary wars? Is that why the Republic fell? Or was it because of agricultural friction, populist politics, ingrained patrician rule, and the technological deficiencies of a large organized society in the age of antiquity? For that matter did the British Empire ever 'turn' on its citizens? At the zenith of it's Imperial glory Britain also reached a hey-day of progressivism and democratic reform. If not for two crushing World War's history might have looked very different.

Are you freakin' high? Seriously, what's wrong with you? Who said anything about the FALL OF ROME? Who said anything about the fall of any empire? This earns you a spot on the ignore list. If you cant follow clear context, there is no hope that your criticisms are worth the electrons to display them.

You are saying that in Rome's 800 year history, no ruler ever created a reign of terror amongst his own people? You are truly touched!

As for the British empire.... ROFLMAO... no.... they never turned on their subjects.... btw, welcome to America. As for their advancing democracy... never did the ruling class, ANY ruling class give up power or concede rights to the average man unless pressed to do so by the masses. You really haven't a clue how stupid your post looks, do you?


The list could go on with each case being specific and complicated.

Of course they are complicated... but that doesn't convey benign or honorable intentions. But that's your tact, isn't it... got folks lost in the details, or discourage them from doing further research. However, it's possible to simplify in a way that encompasses all the details. We were principally involved in overthrowing gov'ts, installing brutal dictators and supplying them with arms and aid to keep them in power.



This is not opinion, it's historical fact, historical constant. It hasn't changed in 5000 years because human nature has not changed within that time.
But it is opinion, it's certainly not historical fact.

If human nature hasn't become constrained by social and political order in the past 5,000 years then whence came all of our social reforms (the abolition of slavery, the liberation of women) and how do you account for the drastic reduction in violence, crime, and social ills over the past two or three centuries? 'Human Nature' is contingent upon whatever environment it is thrust into and what tools we give ourselves. This is debatable of course, but it is again more complicated than your generalization.

The constraints were developed to keep human nature in check. Have you ever read ANYTHING from the founders? The constraints are NOT changes in human nature, but a recognition that human nature has not changed and so to protect against the paths of tyranny (ambition, avarice, lust for power, control, etc.) This was the entire premise of the age of reason, the enlightenment and the bill of rights.

I do not have time to waste on such short sighted, knee-jerk, hit piece ignorance as you've displayed here. You will not be responded to again... so have fun with your last word... I'm sure it will be just as lacking as this was.
 
It appears to me that you do not know the difference between a nation and its government. They are not the same thing. A country and its government are 2 separate entities, but one goal of propaganda is to conflate the 2, so that uninformed people will make statements like yours.

This is reason #1 why I stopped being a Republican back in 2004. I was sick of the supposed 'critics' of govt cheerlead Bush's expansions and attack anyone who didn't like it as "anti-American."
 
And this is where I basically left. Geo's position is that anybody who works for a company that contracts with the military is a "Defense Contractor", and he refuses to move off of that position. So when somebody who insists that everybody from the parking garage guard to the landscaper at General Dynamics is a "Defense Contractor", all I can do is shake my head and walk away.

He did not simply provide coffee to employees or mopped floors. He actually performed services directly related to the military. Thus, he was a defense contractor. I don't care how you spin it.
 
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