Discussion with logic man on the nature of Jesus Christ

[RGacky3]

This is a continuation of this http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...s-religious-historical-accounts-dealt-22.html, I didn't want to derail the thread there, but I also thought that these points logicman brought up needed to be addressed. Its the typical through a ton of scriptures that appear to support your point and hopefully some will stick, problem is, on closer examination the scriptures DO NOT support your point.

All scriptures are from the NRSV, also in the OT where YHWH is used I'll write YHWH rather than "Lord" to avoid confusion (since lord is used in the OT for others than Yahweh).

First you have the Jesus is called such and Jehovah is called such arguments. (I picked the ones that I can deal with all together, others I need to take seperately).

In Isaiah 44:8 God is the only Rock. Psalm 18:31 says, “Who is the Rock except our God”? I Corinthians 10:4, identifies Jesus as the Rock. Jesus must also then be God the Rock.

Isaiah 43:10,11 says that “I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior besides Me. Jesus is the Savior (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1, etc., etc.). Jesus must be God the Savior.

Jehovah is our sanctifier. (Exodus 31:13). Jesus sanctifies us (Hebrews 10:10). Only God is the sanctifier of men. Jesus must be God.

Jehovah is our peace (Judges 6:23). Jesus is our peace (Ephesians 2:14). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is our righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6). Jesus is our righteousness. (Romans 3:21-22; 1 Corinthians 1:30). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the “stumbling stone” of Israel (Isaiah 8:13-15). Jesus is the “stumbling stone” of Israel (1 Peter 2:6-8). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah the Lord is to be set apart as holy (Isaiah 8:12b-13). Jesus, as Lord, is to be set apart as holy (1 Peter 3:14b-15a).

Jehovah’s voice is “like the roar of rushing waters” (Ezekiel 43:2). Jesus’ “voice was like the sound of rushing waters” (Revelation 1:15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

These all follow the same argument, A has property C and B has property C thus A must be B. The problem there is that doesn't follow at all. Kings are also called Israels Savior, does that mean those kings are Yahweh? (2 kings 13:5) (Nehemiah 9:27)

The blood of the lamb sacrificed on atonement day sancrifies Israel does that mean that the lamb is Yahweh?

The Temple is set apart as holy does that mean the Temple is Yahweh?

If Jesus is Gods only begotten son, (as the bible clearly says), and the unique annointed one of God, obviously they'd share a lot of properties, and Jesus would be representing Yahweh in many ways ... that doesn't mean the 2 are ontologically identified with each other at all.

Also look at some of those scriptures closer ... take wehre Jesus santifies us in hebrews 10:10, but lets look at 8-12

8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “See, I have come to do your will.” He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. 10 And it is by God’s will[d] that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest stands day after day at his service, offering again and again the same sacrifices that can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ[e] had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, “he sat down at the right hand of God,”

You see the distinciton is CLEARLY made between God (not the father, but God), and Jesus, it's GODS will, and Jesus came to do Gods will, and after that he sits at the right hand of God.

Or look at Jesus being the "sumbling stone" Here is what 1 Peter 2:6-8 says.

6 For it stands in scripture:

“See, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

7 To you then who believe, he is precious; but for those who do not believe,

“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the very head of the corner,”

8 and

“A stone that makes them stumble,
and a rock that makes them fall.”

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Now look at Isaiah 8:13-15


13 But YHWH of hosts, him you shall regard as holy; let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 He will become a sanctuary, a stone one strikes against; for both houses of Israel he will become a rock one stumbles over—a trap and a snare for the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many among them shall stumble; they shall fall and be broken; they shall be snared and taken.

Ok fair enough, but it's not really saying the same thing, but that's because 1 Peter 2:6-8 IS'NT JUST TALKING ABOUT ISAIAH 8, It's talking about Isaiah 28:16

therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh,

"See, I am laying in Zion a foundation stone,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation:
“One who trusts will not panic.”"

Notice the Stone isn't God, but is laid by God.

Psalms 118:21-24

I thank you that you have answered me
and have become my salvation.
22 The stone that the builders rejected
has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the YHWH’s doing;
it is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day that the YHWH has made;
let us rejoice and be glad in it.[c]

This stone is not Yahweh, it's something Yahweh does.

See you have to look at the WHOLE scriptrue.

I can do this with all of the scriptures there, to show why you're missusing them.

John 1:23 quotes Isaiah 40:3 as saying John the Baptist was to prepare the way for the LORD (Jehovah). John prepared the way before Jesus so Jesus must be LORD (Jehovah).

It's all how you frame that quote, Yes, John the Baptist is preparing the way for yahweh, so that yahweh can send his son. Right after it refers to Jesus as the Lamb of God, and the Son of God.

Isaiah 44:24 says that God (Jehovah) is the one who has made all things. Colossians 1:16, speaking of Christ, says that “all things were created by Him and for him”. Jesus must therefore be Jehovah God.

Jehovah created the universe (Psalm 102:25-27). Jesus created the universe (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-19; Hebrews 1:10-12). THERE IS ONLY ONE CREATOR. (Isaiah 44:24). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the only God we are to “serve”(2 Kings 17:35); Jesus (identified as the Creator in Colossians 1:16-17) is to be served (Colossians 3:24). Jesus must be Jehovah.

All of these depend on an exegesis of Colossians 1, here's what it says. 15-20

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in[h] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.

Notice he is the IMAGE (eikon) of the invisible God. Like in 1 Corinthians 11:7 Man is the image of God and woman the image of Man.

ALso the firstborn of all creation ... (including him in creation), he is the first created and thus firstborn over creation. All things are created THROUGH him ... (through Christ God does many things), now when it comes to creation Paul Clafrifies what he means by all (so we don't get stuck up on "all things.") in 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 (we'll go back to that scripture later).

27 For “God[h] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.

Exactly, so obviously when it says all, it's refering to all others. Notice here though that even though all things are subject to Jesus, Jesus is subject to God.

Jehovah’s voice is “like the roar of rushing waters” (Ezekiel 43:2). Jesus’ “voice was like the sound of rushing waters” (Revelation 1:15). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is “the first and the last” (Isaiah 44:6; 48:12). Jesus is the “first and the last” (Revelation 1:17-18; 22:12-13, 20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Jehovah is the “Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 1:8; Revelation 21:6-7). Jesus is the “Alpha and the Omega” (Revelation 22:12-13, 20). Jesus must be Jehovah.

Notice what it says in Revelation 1:1

1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants[a] what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant[c] John,

So this is a revelation Jesus gets FROM GOD ... So don't get confused here, God is giving Jesus a message to pass on.

Jesus says "I am the Alpha and the Omega," yes because he has been given the authority to do so FROM God.

Notice in revelation 1:5-7

and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and freed[d] us from our sins by his blood, 6 and made[e] us to be a kingdom, priests serving[f] his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

7 Look! He is coming with the clouds;
every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and on his account all the tribes of the earth will wail.

So it is to be. Amen.

It is HIS God, and HIS father.

Notice Revelation 22, who is speaking in verse 8-15

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me; 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant[e] with you and your comrades[f] the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”

10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

12 “See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes,[g] so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Its an angel, speaking for Jesus, who as we saw in Verse 1 is speaking for Yahweh.

Jehovah is the great Judge who gives life to whom he wishes and who renders to each man “according” to his “deeds” (Psalm 98:9; Deuteronomy 32:39; Jeremiah 17:9-10). Jesus is the only judge who gives life to whom he wishes and renders to each man “according” to his “deeds” (John 5:21-22; Revelation 2:18, 23). Jesus must be Jehovah.

John 5:21-22

21 Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. 22 The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son,

The son has been given the judgement authority from God the Father. But look at what Jesus says about his judgement in verse 30

30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

Now revelation 2:18,28 ... yes, Jesus judges, but again, he qualifies in verse 28

28 even as I also received authority from my Father. To the one who conquers I will also give the morning star.

Now I can keep going, but I think I've made my point, now I'll show you some scriptures that show (FULLING IN CONTEXT) that Jesus CANNOT be Yawhen.

 

[RGacky3]

BTW, if you feel like the other points can be defended I can deal with those as well, I just figured I'd take a sampling to show that you're using the scriptures wrong, I don't like the whole "mention a ton of scriptures and hope some stick" way of debating.

Anyway, I'll just use a few scriptures to show how Jesus CANNOT be Yahweh.

1 Corinthians 11: "3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband[a] is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ."

This is post Jesus assention to heaven, yet still, just as Christ is the head of man, God is the head of Christ, a distinction in authority, not much more has to be said on this.

1 Corinthians 15:
24 Then comes the end,[g] when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[h] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.

Notice Jesus HANDS the kingdom to his God the father, why? Because God put all things in subjection, but then the Son subjects himself to God. This is obviously showing a distinction in authority. Christ subjects himself to God, as HIS God.

Now here is a point where Jesus gets accused of making himself "God" or "A God" buy the pharasees, watch how he responds.

John 10:

31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus replied, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law,[d] ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled— 36 can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand[e] that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

Notice how he puts it, if those judges and angels (whome are called "gods" in the psalms") are called Gods, how can Jesus calling himself "Gods Son" be blasphomy? Since obviously those who were judges and angels in psalms were not calling themselves Yahweh, neither is Jesus.

Now when is says the father is in me and I am in the father, does that mean that he and the Father are ontologically he same? No .. look in Romans 12:5

5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another.

Obviosuly saying a person is in Christ or God, doesn't mean they are ontologically the same being.

So what did Jesus believe about the nature of Yahweh? Mark 12:28-29

28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one;

He was quoting the Shama, a Unitarian creed that the Jews understood, at another point he agreed with a Scribe who quoted it. Jews are Unitarians, Jesus agreed with them.

1 Corinthians 8:

5 Indeed, even though there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as in fact there are many gods and many lords— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Here it's clear. The Father is the one true God, Jesus is lord, redemtion comes from God through Christ. Now notice how the exclusionary caterories work, infact there are many gods and lords, but when we say there is only one lord, it is in reference to the others (as is done EVERY SINGE TIME in the OT, when exclusionary langauge is used, when they say Yahweh is the only Lord, it's always in the context of talking about other Gods.)

John 17:3 shows it even more clearly.

3 And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

This is the true nature of Jesus Christ, he is sent by the only true God, Yahweh, the Father.

Now I know you didn't bring up John 1:1, but I want to bring it up myself anyway. This scripture used to be used to defend the trinity all the time, not anymore, and here's why.

In the begining was the word, and the word was with Ton Theon (the god), and theos (god) was the word. (transliteration.)

This is the ONLY TIME, where in the same context theos is used once with the definate article and once without, why? Because John is talking about 2 distinct beings. The word was with THE GOD, now if he wanted to say the word was that same God he would have said "THE GOD" again, he didn't, the word was "God," a distinction was being made, which makes sence since the word was with the god, how could be also be that same god?

Now if God here means the trinity, then it's saying that the word was with the trinity and was the trinity, which makes no sense, John wouldn't say that. CLEARLY although The word is a divine being, the word is not Yahweh, THE God.

Romasn 15:5,6

5 May the God of steadfastness and encouragement grant you to live in harmony with one another, in accordance with Christ Jesus, 6 so that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That God (Yahweh) Is THE GOD of Jesus. (repeated all throughout the NT, such as in 2 Corinthians 1:3, 11:31, Ephesians 1:3,17 and so on and so forth).

I could keep going with the scriptures, but these show that Jesus CANNOT be yahweh.

 

[Logicman]

So, your whole argument is that Jesus is not God? Do I have that right?

 

[Logicman]

Or is it your argument that Jesus can be God, but he just can't be Yahweh?

 

[Cable]

Sorry I just came in and didn't read the other thread. I was waiting the the explanation of:
So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

 

[alwinwarrens]

Those are some arguments you have laid on table.

 

[RGacky3]

Or is it your argument that Jesus can be God, but he just can't be Yahweh?

Yahweh = God, so my argument is that Jesus is not Yahweh/God.

Jesus is called divine, or god in the NT, (so are angels, so is moses, so are judges), but he isn't THE almighty God Yahweh.

 

[RGacky3]

Sorry I just came in and didn't read the other thread. I was waiting the the explanation of:
So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

He is calling himself the one who God the father glorifies, he isn't quoting from Exodus 3, because what he says here "ego eimi" isn't what Yahweh says in Exodus, he says "ego eimi ho on or "esomai hos esomai" i.e. I am the one that is. Ego Eimi is also used by the blind man that is healed by Jesus, when they ask him "are you the one Jesus healed?" HE responds "ego eimi" he obviously isn't calling himself Yahweh, and neither is Jesus.

 

[Logicman]

Yahweh = God, so my argument is that Jesus is not Yahweh/God.

Jesus is called divine, or god in the NT, (so are angels, so is moses, so are judges), but he isn't THE almighty God Yahweh.

Two more questions, please, to better define your position:

When did Jesus come into existence (in any form) for the first time or, like God, has he always existed?

Is Jesus God in the Old Testament?

 

[head of joaquin]

Two more questions, please, to better define your position:

When did Jesus come into existence (in any form) for the first time or, like God, has he always existed?

Is Jesus God in the Old Testament?

Jesus, in the gospel, was born in Judea sometime around the beginning of what is now called the Common Era. Luke indicates as much in his gospel.

Since Jesus is portrayed as the Son of God, you would expect him to have been born at a particular time. The other gospels support this, and portray Jesus as a man of about 30 years old at the time of his ministry.

As to some other story about some other Jesus in some other "form", that's not in the gospel, I fail to see how it matters. Are you saying that the gospel isn't sufficient for Christianity and we need a supplement provided by some theologian? "Jesus: The Prequel"? That's not what Paul says.

 

[Logicman]

Jesus, in the gospel, was born in Judea sometime around the beginning of what is now called the Common Era. Luke indicates as much in his gospel.

Since Jesus is portrayed as the Son of God, you would expect him to have been born at a particular time. The other gospels support this, and portray Jesus as a man of about 30 years old at the time of his ministry.

As to some other story about some other Jesus in some other "form", that's not in the gospel, I fail to see how it matters. Are you saying that the gospel isn't sufficient for Christianity and we need a supplement provided by some theologian? "Jesus: The Prequel"? That's not what Paul says.

The New Testament says Jesus is God:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30). - (righterreport.com)

And not only that, but Jesus ushered in the New Covenant. Only God ushers in the major covenants.

 

[head of joaquin]

The New Testament says Jesus is God:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30). - (righterreport.com)

And not only that, but Jesus ushered in the New Covenant. Only God ushers in the major covenants.

Ah, fast and loose glossing. My favorite.

Every one of these is ambiguous and needs to be interpreted. So if you start from a Trinitarian perspective, you of course can torture phrases like "is one with the father" to mean he is the father (oh, I forgot he's not, but is).

In any case, my point is much more fundamental: it doesn't matter. Jesus is called the son of God in the gospels. Period. That relationship is needed to embody the message of the gospel, which is John 3:16. Everything else is just theology, and not worth anything. You can have your theology ABOUT the gospel. I'll stick with the gospel itself.

 

[Northern Light]

It's the whole "the drop vs. the ocean" thing?

Was Jesus the drop or was he the ocean?

The Holy Trinity defines this quite clearly. They are all connected.

Arguing over whether or not Jesus was God is rather pointless because he was and wasn't, simultaneously. It's a duality riddle.

What I want to know is what happened to Jesus between birth and his 30's when he appeared in Jerusalem. There's a rather huge time gap in his life story. Most of what he has to say parallels what is said in the East. He could have gone anywhere or met anyone in that time.

 

[Logicman]

Ah, fast and loose glossing. My favorite.

Every one of these is ambiguous and needs to be interpreted. So if you start from a Trinitarian perspective, you of course can torture phrases like "is one with the father" to mean he is the father (oh, I forgot he's not, but is).

In any case, my point is much more fundamental: it doesn't matter. Jesus is called the son of God in the gospels. Period. That relationship is needed to embody the message of the gospel, which is John 3:16. Everything else is just theology, and not worth anything. You can have your theology ABOUT the gospel. I'll stick with the gospel itself.

Fast and loose my foot. As for being ambiguous and needing interpreting, skeptics will always make those self-serving claims.

And a lot of those references were from the Gospels.

We also see Jesus claiming to be "I AM" in Mark's Gospel (chapter 6). When the disciples were afraid from seeing Jesus walking on the water, Jesus said (in the NIV translation), "Take courage! It is I." But the actual Greek is "ego eimi," I AM. So in reality it says 'Take courage, it is I AM.'

 

[Logicman]

It's the whole "the drop vs. the ocean" thing?

Was Jesus the drop or was he the ocean?

The Holy Trinity defines this quite clearly. They are all connected.

Arguing over whether or not Jesus was God is rather pointless because he was and wasn't, simultaneously. It's a duality riddle.

What I want to know is what happened to Jesus between birth and his 30's when he appeared in Jerusalem. There's a rather huge time gap in his life story. Most of what he has to say parallels what is said in the East. He could have gone anywhere or met anyone in that time.

Jesus existed before his incarnation spoken of in the New Testament. In fact, he is the "Angel of the Lord" ('angel' meaning 'messenger,' not a specific angel), speaking as God in the Burning Bush in the Old Testament. Read the following carefully with an open mind and you will see it.

Angel of the LORD

 

[Northern Light]

*shrug* That's just making things way too complicated. You can make any passage fit your own design.

If you learn about other eastern religions, everything Jesus says makes sense. I don't really care for who wrote what after the fact.

 

[head of joaquin]

Fast and loose my foot. As for being ambiguous and needing interpreting, skeptics will always make those self-serving claims.

And a lot of those references were from the Gospels.

We also see Jesus claiming to be "I AM" in Mark's Gospel (chapter 6). When the disciples were afraid from seeing Jesus walking on the water, Jesus said (in the NIV translation), "Take courage! It is I." But the actual Greek is "ego eimi," I AM. So in reality it says 'Take courage, it is I AM.'

For all your glossing, the only clear statements about Jesus's status in these texts is that he is the Son of Man and the Son of God.

If he were God (and if that were so important to the gospel), you'd expect somebody to just come out and say, "Jesus is God". But that never happens. Maybe because he's the Son of God, eh?

You are stuck glossing and retrojecting and theologizing. Meanwhile genuine Christianity has a story about God and his son, and it seems to work.

 

[Logicman]

For all your glossing, the only clear statements about Jesus's status in these texts is that he is the Son of Man and the Son of God.

If he were God (and if that were so important to the gospel), you'd expect somebody to just come out and say, "Jesus is God". But that never happens. Maybe because he's the Son of God, eh?

No. Because it starts riots. See John 8:58.

You are stuck glossing and retrojecting and theologizing. Meanwhile genuine Christianity has a story about God and his son, and it seems to work.

The weight of the scriptural evidence is strongly against you. Genuine Christianity has Christ as God Almighty, and it is indeed working well.

 

[Logicman]

If you learn about other eastern religions, everything Jesus says makes sense.

Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." - John 8:24

Eastern religions don't have anything like that that I'm aware of.

 

[Northern Light]

Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." - John 8:24

Eastern religions don't have anything like that that I'm aware of.

Not really a fan of modern translation. The transliterations of the original Koine are far more interesting.

A lot of the allegory that Jesus speaks in has relationship with spiritual concepts found elsewhere in the world. The story of Jesus itself has earlier versions in Egypt and Babylonia.

 

[Cable]

He is calling himself the one who God the father glorifies, he isn't quoting from Exodus 3, because what he says here "ego eimi" isn't what Yahweh says in Exodus, he says "ego eimi ho on or "esomai hos esomai" i.e. I am the one that is. Ego Eimi is also used by the blind man that is healed by Jesus, when they ask him "are you the one Jesus healed?" HE responds "ego eimi" he obviously isn't calling himself Yahweh, and neither is Jesus.

If you take the "I Am" statement in context, as you should also the blind man quote, it seems to me he is saying "before Abraham existed I existed." He isn't saying "I am the one who did this, or I am the one that had this happen to me." It is about existence. That's my take on it, and certainly those who suddenly wanted to stone him seemed to understand it this way.

In support of his Godship you can look at revelations. When the disciple in revelations started to bow down and worship the angel the angel said "Don't do it" because he was not God. Revelations says the lamb is worthy of worship.
In the old testament there is "Thou shall have no other gods before me." We are not to worship other gods. Even Jesus said worship God and him only.
When the rich young man called Jesus "Good" Jesus replied, "There is only one who is good." Basically implying "if you think I'm good then you must realize I am God." He didn't deny he was good. The statement was intended to challenge the man's understanding of who he actually is.

Question begging: Who is Jesus to you? You've laid out that he isn't God. Who is he? An angel messenger?

 

[Cable]

Not really a fan of modern translation. The transliterations of the original Koine are far more interesting.

A lot of the allegory that Jesus speaks in has relationship with spiritual concepts found elsewhere in the world. The story of Jesus itself has earlier versions in Egypt and Babylonia.

The interesting thing about men who won't understand God is that they always have to destroy the Christ. It is fundamental to their cause. Many will say "I don't believe the story." Others will try to destroy the story. It is a very powerful story.

 

[head of joaquin]

The interesting thing about men who won't understand God is that they always have to destroy the Christ. It is fundamental to their cause. Many will say "I don't believe the story." Others will try to destroy the story. It is a very powerful story.

The story involves a father sending a son. God the father sending his son. That's what makes it powerful.

Having God send himself makes it not only anticlimactic (God really can't die), but almost incomprehensible.

So it perplexes me why doctrinal Christians feel the necessity to supplement the story we have, summarized by John 3:16 with another story that adds nothing.

 

[head of joaquin]

No. Because it starts riots. See John 8:58.



The weight of the scriptural evidence is strongly against you. Genuine Christianity has Christ as God Almighty, and it is indeed working well.

The scripture isn't a book of evidence. It's a story. So your premise is sadly off right from the start.

You're looking for "evidence" of "right thinking" about God in the gospel That's foolish. The gospel is a narrative not a theology text. And if it were a theology text, you'd think somebody would just say "Jesus is God" rather than leave it to you to construct an elaborate argument about it, cherry picking from texts that were all written at different times and wouldn't have even been available to the first Christians (I guess they missed out).

Are you saying God did a bad job explaining that he was Jesus all along (and needed you to clear things up) or are you saying you're just smarter and more rational than those stupid non-Christians non-Trinitarians, who aren't rational enough to put the evidence together like you. The first is pure arrogance, the second pure brag. Take your pick.

 

[head of joaquin]

Jesus said, "Unless you believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." - John 8:24

Eastern religions don't have anything like that that I'm aware of.

Jesus claimed to be the son of God. I believe him.

He never claimed to be God, so be careful what you wish for.