davidtaylorjr
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This is a continuation of this http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...s-religious-historical-accounts-dealt-22.html, I didn't want to derail the thread there, but I also thought that these points logicman brought up needed to be addressed. Its the typical through a ton of scriptures that appear to support your point and hopefully some will stick, problem is, on closer examination the scriptures DO NOT support your point.
All scriptures are from the NRSV, also in the OT where YHWH is used I'll write YHWH rather than "Lord" to avoid confusion (since lord is used in the OT for others than Yahweh).
First you have the Jesus is called such and Jehovah is called such arguments. (I picked the ones that I can deal with all together, others I need to take seperately).
These all follow the same argument, A has property C and B has property C thus A must be B. The problem there is that doesn't follow at all. Kings are also called Israels Savior, does that mean those kings are Yahweh? (2 kings 13:5) (Nehemiah 9:27)
The blood of the lamb sacrificed on atonement day sancrifies Israel does that mean that the lamb is Yahweh?
The Temple is set apart as holy does that mean the Temple is Yahweh?
If Jesus is Gods only begotten son, (as the bible clearly says), and the unique annointed one of God, obviously they'd share a lot of properties, and Jesus would be representing Yahweh in many ways ... that doesn't mean the 2 are ontologically identified with each other at all.
Also look at some of those scriptures closer ... take wehre Jesus santifies us in hebrews 10:10, but lets look at 8-12
8 When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, “See, I have come to do your will.” He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. 10 And it is by God’s will[d] that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands day after day at his service, offering again and again the same sacrifices that can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ[e] had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, “he sat down at the right hand of God,”
You see the distinciton is CLEARLY made between God (not the father, but God), and Jesus, it's GODS will, and Jesus came to do Gods will, and after that he sits at the right hand of God.
Or look at Jesus being the "sumbling stone" Here is what 1 Peter 2:6-8 says.
6 For it stands in scripture:
“See, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
7 To you then who believe, he is precious; but for those who do not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the very head of the corner,”
8 and
“A stone that makes them stumble,
and a rock that makes them fall.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
Now look at Isaiah 8:13-15
13 But YHWH of hosts, him you shall regard as holy; let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 He will become a sanctuary, a stone one strikes against; for both houses of Israel he will become a rock one stumbles over—a trap and a snare for the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many among them shall stumble; they shall fall and be broken; they shall be snared and taken.
Ok fair enough, but it's not really saying the same thing, but that's because 1 Peter 2:6-8 IS'NT JUST TALKING ABOUT ISAIAH 8, It's talking about Isaiah 28:16
therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh,
"See, I am laying in Zion a foundation stone,
a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation:
“One who trusts will not panic.”"
Notice the Stone isn't God, but is laid by God.
Psalms 118:21-24
I thank you that you have answered me
and have become my salvation.
22 The stone that the builders rejected
has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the YHWH’s doing;
it is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day that the YHWH has made;
let us rejoice and be glad in it.[c]
This stone is not Yahweh, it's something Yahweh does.
See you have to look at the WHOLE scriptrue.
I can do this with all of the scriptures there, to show why you're missusing them.
It's all how you frame that quote, Yes, John the Baptist is preparing the way for yahweh, so that yahweh can send his son. Right after it refers to Jesus as the Lamb of God, and the Son of God.
All of these depend on an exegesis of Colossians 1, here's what it says. 15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 for in[h] him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
Notice he is the IMAGE (eikon) of the invisible God. Like in 1 Corinthians 11:7 Man is the image of God and woman the image of Man.
ALso the firstborn of all creation ... (including him in creation), he is the first created and thus firstborn over creation. All things are created THROUGH him ... (through Christ God does many things), now when it comes to creation Paul Clafrifies what he means by all (so we don't get stuck up on "all things.") in 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 (we'll go back to that scripture later).
27 For “God[h] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is plain that this does not include the one who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to the one who put all things in subjection under him, so that God may be all in all.
Exactly, so obviously when it says all, it's refering to all others. Notice here though that even though all things are subject to Jesus, Jesus is subject to God.
Jehovah’s voice is “like the roar of rushing waters” (Ezekiel 43:2). Jesus’ “voice was like the sound of rushing waters” (Revelation 1:15). Jesus must be Jehovah.
Notice what it says in Revelation 1:1
1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants[a] what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant[c] John,
So this is a revelation Jesus gets FROM GOD ... So don't get confused here, God is giving Jesus a message to pass on.
Jesus says "I am the Alpha and the Omega," yes because he has been given the authority to do so FROM God.
Notice in revelation 1:5-7
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and freed[d] us from our sins by his blood, 6 and made[e] us to be a kingdom, priests serving[f] his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
7 Look! He is coming with the clouds;
every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and on his account all the tribes of the earth will wail.
So it is to be. Amen.
It is HIS God, and HIS father.
Notice Revelation 22, who is speaking in verse 8-15
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me; 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant[e] with you and your comrades[f] the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”
10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”
12 “See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes,[g] so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. 15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Its an angel, speaking for Jesus, who as we saw in Verse 1 is speaking for Yahweh.
John 5:21-22
21 Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. 22 The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son,
The son has been given the judgement authority from God the Father. But look at what Jesus says about his judgement in verse 30
30 “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Now revelation 2:18,28 ... yes, Jesus judges, but again, he qualifies in verse 28
28 even as I also received authority from my Father. To the one who conquers I will also give the morning star.
Now I can keep going, but I think I've made my point, now I'll show you some scriptures that show (FULLING IN CONTEXT) that Jesus CANNOT be Yawhen.
John's Gospel would argue otherwise.
