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Discussion on Police killing of Black people and out of propotion

Caine

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I am personally tired of hearing that black people are "twice as likely" to be killed by police than others. So lets talk figures. I'll use 2015 data for this. In 2015, 1146 people were killed by police or in police custody. 306 of them were black, and 581 were white, the rest were of other races, but nobody seems to care about those other races in this discussion. Now, while people correctly state that blacks make up a much smaller part of the population than whites, what should be focused on is that blacks make up a higher part of the criminal element. FBI crime statistics show that of violent crime, blacks committed 37.7% of it. Yet blacks comprised of only 26.7% of those killed by police or in police custody. So... where is the problem?

As 2015 FBI data isn't available just yet, Im using 2014 data
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-43

And here is the data on police and in-custody deaths
The Counted: people killed by police in the United States – interactive | US news | The Guardian
 
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Ikari

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I think the bigger problem is the near 1200 deaths at the hands of the police and the sometimes very questionable use of deadly force.
 

RetiredUSN

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I think the bigger problem is the near 1200 deaths at the hands of the police and the sometimes very questionable use of deadly force.

Police are violently attacked about 13,000 times a year. I can show proof if you like.
 

Caine

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I think the bigger problem is the near 1200 deaths at the hands of the police and the sometimes very questionable use of deadly force.

That is a problem in many of the cases, yes.

I have literally spent hours clicking on each individual case and reading the information and determining for myself whether or not lethal force was necessary based upon the short paragraph of information they provide, and trying to keep in mind that this is The Guardian after all. I can tell you that I have found more than a handful of them where I have determined that lethal force used didn't seem to be necessary (based on the information that they provided).

I also determined that there are more than a handful of what those who know anything about law enforcement would call "Excited Delirium" cases. In which someone high on (usually LSD/PCP type hallucinogens) collapse and die AFTER the struggle with law enforcement is over and done with. Those deaths don't rest on the shoulders of law enforcement, as it is more of a medical condition death than anything.
 

Ikari

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Police are violently attacked about 13,000 times a year. I can show proof if you like.

How many are killed per year? That's a stat we actually keep track of, so that number will be more reliable. We don't exactly accurately aggregate all the deaths caused by police.
 

Caine

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How many are killed per year? That's a stat we actually keep track of, so that number will be more reliable. We don't exactly accurately aggregate all the deaths caused by police.

Does one have to be killed in order to be justified in using lethal force?

Die first, shoot later?
 

Fishking

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I think the bigger problem is the near 1200 deaths at the hands of the police and the sometimes very questionable use of deadly force.

Sure, but that's not how it's framed. It's framed as "cuz racism" or "this is only a black problem".
 

PoS

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I think the bigger problem is the near 1200 deaths at the hands of the police and the sometimes very questionable use of deadly force.

A lot of it has to do with the militarization due to the drug war and sovereign immunity. If we cancel the war on drugs and make each and every police officer personally liable for their actions then it would go a long way in curbing abuses.
 

jimbo

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I think the bigger problem is the near 1200 deaths at the hands of the police and the sometimes very questionable use of deadly force.

I think we discussed that 1200 claim in another thread. I pulled 3 of the claims at random, another poster did the same. Of the 6, all were something other than a police shooting . Of the 3 I researched, one was an in pursuit traffic accident, one a cyclist who rode off a sidewalk over the curb and fell into the path of an oncoming cruiser. The third a drug and alcohol abuser being transported who died of a seizure in a van. I don't remember the other posters 3, but similar.

If there is a problem, first we must define the problem and state it accurately. Then look at the causes.
 

Dibbler

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Sterling's mother told the media that Sterling had a prior history with police including felony arrests. Court records show his arrest history includes:

9/09/96: Aggravated battery
10/31/97: Second-degree battery
1/06/98: Simple battery
5/04/00: Public intimidation
9/20/00: Carnal knowledge of a juvenile
9/04/01: Domestic violence
5/24/05: Burglary of an inhabited dwelling place
7/11/05: Receiving stolen things
9/12/05: Burglary of inhabited dwelling place
3/17/06: Simple criminal damage to property, simple robbery, simple theft, drug possession, misrepresentation during booking, simple battery, aggravated battery
4/12/06: Aggravated battery, simple criminal damage to property, disturbing the peace, unauthorized entry
4/04/08: Domestic abuse battery
6/03/09: Resisting an officer, drug possession, receiving stolen things, possession of stolen firearm, illegal carrying of a weapon with CDs, sound reproduct without consent
10/12/09: Illegal carrying of weapon, marijuana possession
8/13/15: Failure to register as a sex offender
4/08/16: Failure to register as a sex offender
6/14/16: Ecstasy and marijuana possession
Sterling shooting: Protests continue as FBI takes over investiga - WTVM.com-Columbus, GA News Weather & Sports

DINDUNUFFIN.
 

jimbo

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How many are killed per year? That's a stat we actually keep track of, so that number will be more reliable. We don't exactly accurately aggregate all the deaths caused by police.

If you have the answer, why not present it? So too your second comment. I'd guess there is a fairly accurate count somewhere. It's not the 1200 you presented as accurate a couple of posts above.
 

RetiredUSN

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How many are killed per year? That's a stat we actually keep track of, so that number will be more reliable. We don't exactly accurately aggregate all the deaths caused by police.

Does it matter? Attacking a police officer by itself is freaking stupid.
 

Tigerace117

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A lot of it has to do with the militarization due to the drug war and sovereign immunity. If we cancel the war on drugs and make each and every police officer personally liable for their actions then it would go a long way in curbing abuses.

I'm pretty sure the cartels aren't just going to go away if drugs are legalized.
 

Captain Adverse

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Well I found two videos of the incident: (CAUTION: Graphic content)

The first is Youtube raw footage:



The second is CNN:



They show me three things:

1. The victim did resist arrest.

2. There was a gun in his pocket.

3. He did not have the gun in his hand when he was shot.

IMO there was no reason for the police to draw their weapons at the time. There were two officers. They had him on the ground, and while has was a large man the officers were both of equal or greater size and should have been able to secure him without the use of deadly force.

IMO there are a number of incidents annually where police are too quick to go to the highest level of force, i.e. deadly force, in an encounter. When one is poised at the level of deadly force, then the likelihood of a bad shoot increases significantly for a number of reasons.

This is especially true when encounters occur with Black Americans. I think part of the problem is that for whatever reason, many police officers tend to consider encounters with Black American more dangerous. That such suspects tend to be more aggressive, argumentative, disobedient to instructions, and willing to resist. That the presence of a weapon is also highly likely.

Still, while this might justify increased caution, this is no excuse for escalating an encounter to the level of deadly force with such rapidity as to lead to an unnecessary death.
 
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Captain Adverse

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While it is true the deceased had a prior criminal record, there was no way these two officers would have known that at the time of this incident. I don't believe the deceased had his identification checked for warrants or wants before the arrest attempt.

The only value this list has is to show, rightly, that the deceased was no angel prior to this incident. However, each incident must be taken at face value based on what occurred during the incident, not on subsequent evidence of past bad acts.
 

calamity

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I am personally tired of hearing that black people are "twice as likely" to be killed by police than others. So lets talk figures. I'll use 2015 data for this. In 2015, 1146 people were killed by police or in police custody. 306 of them were black, and 581 were white, the rest were of other races, but nobody seems to care about those other races in this discussion. Now, while people correctly state that blacks make up a much smaller part of the population than whites, what should be focused on is that blacks make up a higher part of the criminal element. FBI crime statistics show that of violent crime, blacks committed 37.7% of it. Yet blacks comprised of only 26.7% of those killed by police or in police custody. So... where is the problem?

As 2015 FBI data isn't available just yet, Im using 2014 data
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/table-43

And here is the data on police and in-custody deaths
The Counted: people killed by police in the United States – interactive | US news | The Guardian

It's only a race issue because the media is making it one. That's obvious...at least to me it is.
 

jimbo

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Does it matter? Attacking a police officer by itself is freaking stupid.

I'd agree but some of the recent instances seem to go above attacking police.

I don't know if there has always been this level of incidents and the fact that everybody has now become a video producer is the reason or if the incident level has increased. Either way, there is certainly more reporting going on.
 

Henrin

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I also determined that there are more than a handful of what those who know anything about law enforcement would call "Excited Delirium" cases. In which someone high on (usually LSD/PCP type hallucinogens) collapse and die AFTER the struggle with law enforcement is over and done with. Those deaths don't rest on the shoulders of law enforcement, as it is more of a medical condition death than anything.

So the big black guy that was selling illegal cigarettes and was put in choke hold after apparently resisting arrest(where in the **** he resisted arrest I still can't figure out) didn't die because of the actions of the cop? How long do you think he would have lived if someone never put him in a choke hold?
 

manise

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Not a model citizen, to be sure, but the question remains, did he pull a gun on the cops? The videos suggest otherwise, but are not conclusive evidence. The long rap sheet itself doesn't exonerate the cops.

I think the cops will walk on this one unless the Department of Justice can show clear evidence that the deceased's hands were nowhere near his weapon when shot by police. I don't think the DOJ has that evidence in the 2 videos we've seen so far.
 

Top Cat

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That is a problem in many of the cases, yes.

I have literally spent hours clicking on each individual case and reading the information and determining for myself whether or not lethal force was necessary based upon the short paragraph of information they provide, and trying to keep in mind that this is The Guardian after all.

How ironic that you would claim to have done hours of research? I seem to recall that you had the Dallas case solved before the ink was dry of the police reports. Why should anyone believe you now? :rolleyes:
 

Ikari

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Sure, but that's not how it's framed. It's framed as "cuz racism" or "this is only a black problem".

It's not only a black problem. This is a government vs. the People problem. It's all of our problems. Government unrestrained runs rampant over the rights and liberties of The People
 

Ikari

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If you have the answer, why not present it? So too your second comment. I'd guess there is a fairly accurate count somewhere. It's not the 1200 you presented as accurate a couple of posts above.

I didn't present the number, I just used the number Cain presented.
 

Ikari

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Does it matter? Attacking a police officer by itself is freaking stupid.

Ok, but not all of that is justified used of lethal force. Who knows what you mean by "attacked", so I asked for a more reliable number. And we can see who should fear most from a police/citizen interaction.
 

RetiredUSN

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Ok, but not all of that is justified used of lethal force. Who knows what you mean by "attacked", so I asked for a more reliable number. And we can see who should fear most from a police/citizen interaction.

Here are a few numbers from 2013:

Of the 49,851 officers who were assaulted in 2013, 14,565 (29.2 percent) sustained injuries.
31.0 percent of the officers who were attacked with personal weapons (e.g., hands, fists, or feet) suffered injuries.
14.6 percent of the officers who were assaulted with knives or other cutting instruments were injured.
10.9 percent of officers who were attacked with firearms were injured.
27.0 percent of officers who were attacked with other dangerous weapons were injured


https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/leoka/2013/officers-assaulted/assaults_topic_page_-2013


And we wonder why the police shoot?
 

Chomsky

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A lot of it has to do with the militarization due to the drug war and sovereign immunity. If we cancel the war on drugs and make each and every police officer personally liable for their actions then it would go a long way in curbing abuses.
End the drug war, fine.

But drop immunity, and there'd be very few police - the liability would be too high for anyone to consider it.

Now make officers otherwise more accountable for their actions, that might work.
 
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