Dilemma: Weighing Political Priorities

[Skeptic Bob]

This elections has really ****ed with my head. It has forced me to examine which rights and political policies are the most important to me. I have a lot of friends on both sides of the aisle saying they will vote for the "lesser of two evils" for the simple, but very important fact, that the next President could be appointing multiple SCOTUS Justices.

My liberal friends say, "Is it really worth voting 3rd party if it risks having a SCOTUS that will overturn Roe v Wade"? My conservative friends say, "is it really worth voting 3rd party if it risks a SCOTUS that will further erode the 2nd Amendment?"

This is a dilemma that I, and surely other libertarian-minded individuals, have to deal with.

Yes, I lean heavily left when it comes to things like social welfare, healthcare, and education and heavily right when it comes to the rights of small businesses. But those are what I consider "second tier" importance to me. Social welfare might be 3rd tier. That's still high, though, because I have a lot of tiers.

Of "first tier" importance to me is sovereignty over one's own person. That means the right to do with your body what you want and the right to defend your own body. So that puts the right to abortion and the right to bear arms right at the very top of my list. I was not in favor of Bernie's stance on gun control but his actual voting record on the subject wasn't wildly radical on the issue. Still I might have had a blind spot for him in that area. But Hillary even wants to hold gun manufactures liable when legally obtained guns are used in crimes. Even Bernie thinks that is crazy. Justices appointed by Hillary will create a court that will make it even more difficult for people to protect themselves, which is a first tier right in my book.

Then Trump comes along and says he wants to overturn Roe v Wade. He wants to appoint justices that will strip people of the right to choose what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

Control over one's own body and the right to defend that body. Those are the two most fundamental rights I believe a person SHOULD have. How could I ever vote for somebody that wants to strip the people of one of those most fundamental rights?

And if I want to be consistent, this means I need to rethink my backup plan of voting Green party because they do not support an individual's right to bear arms.

The Libertarian party seems to be in favor of both my first tier issues but I depart with them on many of my lesser tier issues.

Ever feel like you just don't belong anywhere?

 

[Gaius46]

From what you've written you could be my long lost, better-looking twin brother. That pretty much sums up my political philosophy and how I feel about this election.

Though it's always subject to change I'm planning to vote Libertarian this time around - and perhaps evermore. I've always known it to be a problem but one of the things this cycle has made crystal clear to me is that our 2 party system is fatally flawed. We need more viable parties, more choice, and we're not going to get it until people who claim to want more choice in their leaders stop voting for Democrats or Republicans because anything else is throwing your vote away.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

This elections has really ****ed with my head. It has forced me to examine which rights and political policies are the most important to me. I have a lot of friends on both sides of the aisle saying they will vote for the "lesser of two evils" for the simple, but very important fact, that the next President could be appointing multiple SCOTUS Justices.

My liberal friends say, "Is it really worth voting 3rd party if it risks having a SCOTUS that will overturn Roe v Wade"? My conservative friends say, "is it really worth voting 3rd party if it risks a SCOTUS that will further erode the 2nd Amendment?"

This is a dilemma that I, and surely other libertarian-minded individuals, have to deal with.

Yes, I lean heavily left when it comes to things like social welfare, healthcare, and education and heavily right when it comes to the rights of small businesses. But those are what I consider "second tier" importance to me. Social welfare might be 3rd tier. That's still high, though, because I have a lot of tiers.

Of "first tier" importance to me is sovereignty over one's own person. That means the right to do with your body what you want and the right to defend your own body. So that puts the right to abortion and the right to bear arms right at the very top of my list. I was not in favor of Bernie's stance on gun control but his actual voting record on the subject wasn't wildly radical on the issue. Still I might have had a blind spot for him in that area. But Hillary even wants to hold gun manufactures liable when legally obtained guns are used in crimes. Even Bernie thinks that is crazy. Justices appointed by Hillary will create a court that will make it even more difficult for people to protect themselves, which is a first tier right in my book.

Then Trump comes along and says he wants to overturn Roe v Wade. He wants to appoint justices that will strip people of the right to choose what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

Control over one's own body and the right to defend that body. Those are the two most fundamental rights I believe a person SHOULD have. How could I ever vote for somebody that wants to strip the people of one of those most fundamental rights?

And if I want to be consistent, this means I need to rethink my backup plan of voting Green party because they do not support an individual's right to bear arms.

The Libertarian party seems to be in favor of both my first tier issues but I depart with them on many of my lesser tier issues.

Ever feel like you just don't belong anywhere?[

All my adult life.

 

[Winchester]

Ever feel like you just don't belong anywhere?

All the time. I have a very similar debate going on in my head as well.

 

[clownboy]

I can't think of a presidential election in my lifetime where I didn't feel like that at some point. Bit by bit over the years the man [men] behind the curtain have been exposed. The media, the power brokers, the ad men have all been exposed and when we really look at it our vote looks very small against those forces. And we all know we're not immune to their sway even knowing they are pulling at the strings.

One of the few things a president does that cannot be undone by the next one are the SCOTUS appointments. So that is probably of the highest importance. But perhaps the number one duty is to get us all moving in one direction. And that includes the congress.

And that is the real shame here. The congress critters are making great play endorsing this or that candidate. All the while the ones making the endorsements are the actual problem. Congressional approval ratings are barely into double digits. Much more than any president it is the congress that consistently fails us.

 

[BitterPill]

This elections has really ****ed with my head. It has forced me to examine which rights and political policies are the most important to me. I have a lot of friends on both sides of the aisle saying they will vote for the "lesser of two evils" for the simple, but very important fact, that the next President could be appointing multiple SCOTUS Justices.

My liberal friends say, "Is it really worth voting 3rd party if it risks having a SCOTUS that will overturn Roe v Wade"? My conservative friends say, "is it really worth voting 3rd party if it risks a SCOTUS that will further erode the 2nd Amendment?"

This is a dilemma that I, and surely other libertarian-minded individuals, have to deal with.

Yes, I lean heavily left when it comes to things like social welfare, healthcare, and education and heavily right when it comes to the rights of small businesses. But those are what I consider "second tier" importance to me. Social welfare might be 3rd tier. That's still high, though, because I have a lot of tiers.

Of "first tier" importance to me is sovereignty over one's own person. That means the right to do with your body what you want and the right to defend your own body. So that puts the right to abortion and the right to bear arms right at the very top of my list. I was not in favor of Bernie's stance on gun control but his actual voting record on the subject wasn't wildly radical on the issue. Still I might have had a blind spot for him in that area. But Hillary even wants to hold gun manufactures liable when legally obtained guns are used in crimes. Even Bernie thinks that is crazy. Justices appointed by Hillary will create a court that will make it even more difficult for people to protect themselves, which is a first tier right in my book.

Then Trump comes along and says he wants to overturn Roe v Wade. He wants to appoint justices that will strip people of the right to choose what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

Control over one's own body and the right to defend that body. Those are the two most fundamental rights I believe a person SHOULD have. How could I ever vote for somebody that wants to strip the people of one of those most fundamental rights?

And if I want to be consistent, this means I need to rethink my backup plan of voting Green party because they do not support an individual's right to bear arms.

The Libertarian party seems to be in favor of both my first tier issues but I depart with them on many of my lesser tier issues.

Ever feel like you just don't belong anywhere?

I have a couple of questions: Do you think inmates of a correctional facility should be allowed to carry firearms?

Also, do you think a five-year-old should be allowed to purchase a Glock?

 

[eohrnberger]

This elections has really ****ed with my head. It has forced me to examine which rights and political policies are the most important to me. I have a lot of friends on both sides of the aisle saying they will vote for the "lesser of two evils" for the simple, but very important fact, that the next President could be appointing multiple SCOTUS Justices.

My liberal friends say, "Is it really worth voting 3rd party if it risks having a SCOTUS that will overturn Roe v Wade"? My conservative friends say, "is it really worth voting 3rd party if it risks a SCOTUS that will further erode the 2nd Amendment?"

This is a dilemma that I, and surely other libertarian-minded individuals, have to deal with.

Yes, I lean heavily left when it comes to things like social welfare, healthcare, and education and heavily right when it comes to the rights of small businesses. But those are what I consider "second tier" importance to me. Social welfare might be 3rd tier. That's still high, though, because I have a lot of tiers.

Of "first tier" importance to me is sovereignty over one's own person. That means the right to do with your body what you want and the right to defend your own body. So that puts the right to abortion and the right to bear arms right at the very top of my list. I was not in favor of Bernie's stance on gun control but his actual voting record on the subject wasn't wildly radical on the issue. Still I might have had a blind spot for him in that area. But Hillary even wants to hold gun manufactures liable when legally obtained guns are used in crimes. Even Bernie thinks that is crazy. Justices appointed by Hillary will create a court that will make it even more difficult for people to protect themselves, which is a first tier right in my book.

Then Trump comes along and says he wants to overturn Roe v Wade. He wants to appoint justices that will strip people of the right to choose what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

Control over one's own body and the right to defend that body. Those are the two most fundamental rights I believe a person SHOULD have. How could I ever vote for somebody that wants to strip the people of one of those most fundamental rights?

And if I want to be consistent, this means I need to rethink my backup plan of voting Green party because they do not support an individual's right to bear arms.

The Libertarian party seems to be in favor of both my first tier issues but I depart with them on many of my lesser tier issues.

Ever feel like you just don't belong anywhere?

BrewerBob, I appreciate your thoughtful post and the very excellent question and point that it raises. :bravo:

I think that Roe vs. Wade is settled law, and isn't going to be over turned. I think perhaps that this concern is a bit overblown. I highly doubt that regardless of which SCOTUS appointments are made that the court will overturn this long standing decision. Further, I think that the recent spate of state laws passed restricting abortion rights will eventually work their way to SCOTUS to be overturned.

I think that it's probably far more important to get a Constitutional Texualist appointed, so that the nation's founding document isn't re-interpreted (or rather misinterpreted or contorted) going forward. Not sure if such a justice is in Trump's list, but I'm almost positive that Hillary wouldn't even consider appointing one.

 

[Fearandloathing]

This elections has really ****ed with my head. It has forced me to examine which rights and political policies are the most important to me. I have a lot of friends on both sides of the aisle saying they will vote for the "lesser of two evils" for the simple, but very important fact, that the next President could be appointing multiple SCOTUS Justices.

My liberal friends say, "Is it really worth voting 3rd party if it risks having a SCOTUS that will overturn Roe v Wade"? My conservative friends say, "is it really worth voting 3rd party if it risks a SCOTUS that will further erode the 2nd Amendment?"

This is a dilemma that I, and surely other libertarian-minded individuals, have to deal with.

Yes, I lean heavily left when it comes to things like social welfare, healthcare, and education and heavily right when it comes to the rights of small businesses. But those are what I consider "second tier" importance to me. Social welfare might be 3rd tier. That's still high, though, because I have a lot of tiers.

Of "first tier" importance to me is sovereignty over one's own person. That means the right to do with your body what you want and the right to defend your own body. So that puts the right to abortion and the right to bear arms right at the very top of my list. I was not in favor of Bernie's stance on gun control but his actual voting record on the subject wasn't wildly radical on the issue. Still I might have had a blind spot for him in that area. But Hillary even wants to hold gun manufactures liable when legally obtained guns are used in crimes. Even Bernie thinks that is crazy. Justices appointed by Hillary will create a court that will make it even more difficult for people to protect themselves, which is a first tier right in my book.

Then Trump comes along and says he wants to overturn Roe v Wade. He wants to appoint justices that will strip people of the right to choose what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

Control over one's own body and the right to defend that body. Those are the two most fundamental rights I believe a person SHOULD have. How could I ever vote for somebody that wants to strip the people of one of those most fundamental rights?

And if I want to be consistent, this means I need to rethink my backup plan of voting Green party because they do not support an individual's right to bear arms.

The Libertarian party seems to be in favor of both my first tier issues but I depart with them on many of my lesser tier issues.

Ever feel like you just don't belong anywhere?

Yeah. 1969 or so, surrounded by protestors who had become violent and cops looking to fulfill their atavistic need to split skulls. I KNEW I did not belong there.

Shocking as it may seem, not one ****ing thing has changed.

When a presidential candidate can destroy a judges reputation with racist-like rhetoric and the people are left with a "choice", not one where it simply requires holding your nose, but one where you have to abandon principles to vote for anyone

 

[Fearandloathing]

I have a couple of questions: Do you think inmates of a correctional facility should be allowed to carry firearms?

Also, do you think a five-year-old should be allowed to purchase a Glock?

After all that, that's the question you have?

 

[BitterPill]

After all that, that's the question you have?

I don't really have an issue with much of it. In the end, I only question the depth of his commitment to the right to bear arms?

Thing is, I suspect BrewerBob's commitment to the right to bear arms is not absolute.

 

[Skeptic Bob]

I have a couple of questions: Do you think inmates of a correctional facility should be allowed to carry firearms?

No. Their rights have been removed through due process.

Also, do you think a five-year-old should be allowed to purchase a Glock?

No. I also don't believe a five-year old should get to decide what medical treatment he will or will not receive. Society has decided children don't have the same rights as adults and, for the most part, I agree.

I get where you are going with this, however. And while I don't want to turn this into an abortion or gun control thread, I will say that I am not among the people who are against all forms of gun legislation. I really have no problem with instant background checks, for example. I don't think it will make much difference one way or the other, but it isn't a litmus issue for me.

My issue isn't that Hillary wants to regulate guns. It is the extent to which she, and others like her, wish to regulate them. I am personally against the banning of particular types of guns, particularly if civilian police are allowed to have them. But even that doesn't fall into a tier one concern for me. But when politicians start saying I must keep my sidearm unloaded and locked up where I can't quickly get to it, or that I can't concealed carry without first proving to the government that I have a "compelling need" to do so, THAT is when we fall into the depriving me of my right to defend myself scenario.

People on both sides of the issue are probably getting ready to come at me on Constitutional grounds. But this isn't about the Constitution. This is about the ethical choices I have to make in deciding whom to vote for. And I don't derive my ethics from the Constitution. I support the 2nd Amendment because it coincides with my ethics. My belief in a right to bear arms isn't because there is a 2nd Amendment.

 

[shagg]

This elections has really ****ed with my head. It has forced me to examine which rights and political policies are the most important to me. I have a lot of friends on both sides of the aisle saying they will vote for the "lesser of two evils" for the simple, but very important fact, that the next President could be appointing multiple SCOTUS Justices.

My liberal friends say, "Is it really worth voting 3rd party if it risks having a SCOTUS that will overturn Roe v Wade"? My conservative friends say, "is it really worth voting 3rd party if it risks a SCOTUS that will further erode the 2nd Amendment?"

This is a dilemma that I, and surely other libertarian-minded individuals, have to deal with.

Yes, I lean heavily left when it comes to things like social welfare, healthcare, and education and heavily right when it comes to the rights of small businesses. But those are what I consider "second tier" importance to me. Social welfare might be 3rd tier. That's still high, though, because I have a lot of tiers.

Of "first tier" importance to me is sovereignty over one's own person. That means the right to do with your body what you want and the right to defend your own body. So that puts the right to abortion and the right to bear arms right at the very top of my list. I was not in favor of Bernie's stance on gun control but his actual voting record on the subject wasn't wildly radical on the issue. Still I might have had a blind spot for him in that area. But Hillary even wants to hold gun manufactures liable when legally obtained guns are used in crimes. Even Bernie thinks that is crazy. Justices appointed by Hillary will create a court that will make it even more difficult for people to protect themselves, which is a first tier right in my book.

Then Trump comes along and says he wants to overturn Roe v Wade. He wants to appoint justices that will strip people of the right to choose what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

Control over one's own body and the right to defend that body. Those are the two most fundamental rights I believe a person SHOULD have. How could I ever vote for somebody that wants to strip the people of one of those most fundamental rights?

And if I want to be consistent, this means I need to rethink my backup plan of voting Green party because they do not support an individual's right to bear arms.

The Libertarian party seems to be in favor of both my first tier issues but I depart with them on many of my lesser tier issues.

Ever feel like you just don't belong anywhere?

Well said. I'm with you, pretty much the same issues in the same hierarchy (getting money out of politics is my #1, but without Bernie it's not happening). I have been apologizing for a good month now to all the gun enthusiasts I know, because I know Shillary is going to push something pretty awful through on that front, after a few SCOTUS picks of course.

But at least there's a 2nd amendment, and she'll be up against the constitution. On the Roe v Wade front, all there is is the previous ruling. Add that to Trumps ....instability and it's #NeverTrump.

But voting for Shillary will require me to betray 95% of what I've been supporting for the last year. And I don't for a second believe she'll follow through on that 5% that's left. So I'm either going 3rd party, or pretty much voting for a pro-choice over a pro-2A SCOTUS. It's sad. It makes me angry. I feel that I have been played masterfully, manipulated into a terrible choice that will force me to throw my vote behind her effort to ascend to POTUS, based on 1 issue, but an issue that will affect almost all others for decades. This is the worst possible case in my opinion. I'm going to have to sign off on all her cronyism, her corporatism, her interventionalism, her shady history, her outright lies, her shallow pandering, her heading the political machine of the left, her strengthening of that machine even further, her "poor judgement" (she knew exactly what she was doing, knew it was wrong, knew she could get away with it legally speaking), her selling out to big money interests, and her gun banning. And all I'm getting back is a SCOTUS that won't push the country back 70 years on social issues. I'm a sucker for taking the deal. I'm ashamed. And yet, any other choice seems worse.

I'm hoping for something odd to happen in July, some sort of shenanigans or legal developments that change the projected choices. I doubt it will happen. If it does, I'm sure many will join me in a sigh of relief, despite the fact that whatever event it is that might invoke this change will likely be a huge embarrassment for the country. But damn it I would cackle gleefully to see a high and mighty untouchable political elite such as her majesty brought to task for all the bad seeds she's sewn.