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Did we allow slavery BECAUSE of democracy, not in spite of it?

There's nothing inherently good about "liberty" if by "liberty" you mean "to be more free".

More free to do what? More free to kill (the liberty to kill at will)?

You are technically "free" to kill right now as you possess the human option to pick up a gun and shoot. The question is whether or not we (as an organized society) should punish you for such an act. And given that I was referring to equal liberty as inherently good, it would be wrong to infringe upon the liberties of others through force. Murder is force.

Liberty for whom? The landowners felt their liberty were at risk when their property (the slaves) were taken from them.

Liberty for all is inherently good. Democracy for all is inherently neutral.

And lastly, how do we express "liberty", an idea, into policy? Why the best means of doing so we have ever found is through democracy. And to fully exploit liberty - most freedom to do most things by most people possible, it would have to be a pure unadulterated one man one vote democracy, or an anarchy.

Pure democracy does not guarantee maximized freedom for most people possible, only guaranteed power for the majority. I do agree that we've realized liberty through democracy better than any other political system. But the democracy came before liberty was realized, and in fact it could be argued that democracy was not fully realized until 1920.
 
This is quite simply a ridiculous post:

There's nothing inherently good about "liberty" if by "liberty" you mean "to be more free".

Of course there is. Individuality is one of the most fundamental elements of the human condition. Every human being has their own unique traits, abilities, appearance etc. In accordance with this, it is ideal that each individual is accorded the maximal ability to make decisions that reflect their unique natures. Liberty is therefore 'natural'. Individual liberty empowers people to think and act as they choose to, within mutual boundaries of course. This encourages individual sovereignty, or governance over oneself; your uniqueness as an individual means that you are prima facie entitled to this control. Your best interests are whatever you perceive them to be.

More free to do what? More free to kill (the liberty to kill at will)?

More free to do a variety of things. Liberty can be defined in three principle ways: economic liberty (freedom to allocate your economic resources as you see fit), social liberty (freedom to make physical or social decisions that affect your own life as you see fit), and political liberty (freedom to contribute to the way society is run and organised). Related to this idea of 'social liberty' are concepts such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion etc. Of course, liberty does not equal license to do whatever one wishes. Writers such as John Stuart Mill advocated the 'harm principle', which stipulated that one could only exercise their liberties insofar as they did not impede upon anybody else's. Obviously, there is no such thing as a 'freedom to kill', as by killing someone you blatantly infringe upon their individual right to decide whether or not to remain alive.

Liberty for whom? The landowners felt their liberty were at risk when their property (the slaves) were taken from them.

Liberty for all. Slavery is obviously an institution which is not consonant with liberty; it undermines the ability of the slave to be equal to the 'free man' before the law, as the slave is regarded as incapable of, or not entitled to, exercise(ing) their own liberties - an absurd proposition. The arguments of landowners who feared their 'liberty' was simply based on an ignorance of the harm principle which I explained above - they were obviously infringing upon the individual liberty of their slaves. The only way that a curtailment of the harm principle can be authorised between individuals is through a voluntary and mutual contract which involves the abridgement of the liberty of one (or both) parties.

And lastly, how do we express "liberty", an idea, into policy? Why the best means of doing so we have ever found is through democracy. And to fully exploit liberty - most freedom to do most things by most people possible, it would have to be a pure unadulterated one man one vote democracy, or an anarchy.

Policy which prioritises liberty comes in many forms. Democracy is certainly not the 'best means', as it is impossible to suggest that one type of liberty (e.g. political liberty) is objectively more important than other types. Although democracy is generally seen as a facilitator of liberty (and vice versa), a benevolent dictatorship which emphasises social and economic liberty at the expense of political liberty is theoretically conceivable. YOur last point about the relationship between the 'full exploitation of liberty' and direct democracy (which is not necessarily anarchy) is a simple non sequitur, as direct democracy would inevitably result in the restriction of the liberties of minorities in the face of majority rule, also known as the 'tyranny of the majority'.

In short, I think you need to do some serious reading on this subject.
 
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You are technically "free" to kill right now as you possess the human option to pick up a gun and shoot. The question is whether or not we (as an organized society) should punish you for such an act. And given that I was referring to equal liberty as inherently good, it would be wrong to infringe upon the liberties of others through force. Murder is force.

But to use force to keep me in jail to stop me from killing again is infringing on my liberty to kill.

If the government uses the police to stop you from practicing your first amendment rights, wouldn't you say that the government is infringing on your liberty to have free speech?

You were talking about liberty, you are only adding the "equal" now. That you have to now qualify it shows that there's nothing inherently good about "liberty". There still needs to be restrictions and qualifications imposed on it to produce good results for society.


Liberty for all is inherently good. Democracy for all is inherently neutral.

You saying so doesn't make it so.

Liberty to kill for the killer produces a dead body. A dead body is not something good. To stop that happening again, you choose to infringe upon the liberty of the killer so as to create "equal liberty", whatever that means. Clearly liberty for all is not inherently good, that's why there's jail. Unless you oppose the idea of jailing murderers?


Pure democracy does not guarantee maximized freedom for most people possible, only guaranteed power for the majority. I do agree that we've realized liberty through democracy better than any other political system. But the democracy came before liberty was realized, and in fact it could be argued that democracy was not fully realized until 1920.

Think about the idea of "most possible".
 
This is quite simply a ridiculous post:



Of course there is. Individuality is one of the most fundamental elements of the human condition. Every human being has their own unique traits, abilities, appearance etc. In accordance with this, it is ideal that each individual is accorded the maximal ability to make decisions that reflect their unique natures. Liberty is therefore 'natural'. Individual liberty empowers people to think and act as they choose to, within mutual boundaries of course. This encourages individual sovereignty, or governance over oneself; your uniqueness as an individual means that you are prima facie entitled to this control. Your best interests are whatever you perceive them to be.



More free to do a variety of things. Liberty can be defined in three principle ways: economic liberty (freedom to allocate your economic resources as you see fit), social liberty (freedom to make physical or social decisions that affect your own life as you see fit), and political liberty (freedom to contribute to the way society is run and organised). Related to this idea of 'social liberty' are concepts such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion etc. Of course, liberty does not equal license to do whatever one wishes. Writers such as John Stuart Mill advocated the 'harm principle', which stipulated that one could only exercise their liberties insofar as they did not impede upon anybody else's. Obviously, there is no such thing as a 'freedom to kill', as by killing someone you blatantly infringe upon their individual right to decide whether or not to remain alive.



Liberty for all. Slavery is obviously an institution which is not consonant with liberty; it undermines the ability of the slave to be equal to the 'free man' before the law, as the slave is regarded as incapable of, or not entitled to, exercise(ing) their own liberties - an absurd proposition. The arguments of landowners who feared their 'liberty' was simply based on an ignorance of the harm principle which I explained above - they were obviously infringing upon the individual liberty of their slaves. The only way that a curtailment of the harm principle can be authorised between individuals is through a voluntary and mutual contract which involves the abridgement of the liberty of one (or both) parties.



Policy which prioritises liberty comes in many forms. Democracy is certainly not the 'best means', as it is impossible to suggest that one type of liberty (e.g. political liberty) is objectively more important than other types. Although democracy is generally seen as a facilitator of liberty (and vice versa), a benevolent dictatorship which emphasises social and economic liberty at the expense of political liberty is theoretically conceivable. YOur last point about the relationship between the 'full exploitation of liberty' and direct democracy (which is not necessarily anarchy) is a simple non sequitur, as direct democracy would inevitably result in the restriction of the liberties of minorities in the face of majority rule, also known as the 'tyranny of the majority'.

In short, I think you need to do some serious reading on this subject.


And I think you need to do some serious reading about what Elija was saying. When you read posts, try to read in context and see what it was in reply to. Elija seemed to think that Liberty is somehow different from Democracy in that democracy can produce bad things but Liberty which he defines as "more free" cannot produce bad things i.e. inherently good. Being "more free" will not always produce good thing/policy just as democracy will not always produce good thing/policy is what I was arguing. You injecting a new definition of Liberty and then going into your own argument doesn't prove that my arguement pertaining to Elija is wrong. You can't say that giving everyone the freedon to anything without qualification (e.g. can't harm others) will always produce something good. It won't. Liberty has to be qualified just as most things are. There is nothing inherently good in being more free in itself because if the wrong person is more free to do the wrong thing, then the result will be something wrong.
 
And I think you need to do some serious reading about what Elija was saying. When you read posts, try to read in context and see what it was in reply to. Elija seemed to think that Liberty is somehow different from Democracy in that democracy can produce bad things but Liberty which he defines as "more free" cannot produce bad things i.e. inherently good. Being "more free" will not always produce good thing/policy just as democracy will not always produce good thing/policy is what I was arguing. You injecting a new definition of Liberty and then going into your own argument doesn't prove that my arguement pertaining to Elija is wrong. You can't say that giving everyone the freedon to anything without qualification (e.g. can't harm others) will always produce something good. It won't. Liberty has to be qualified just as most things are. There is nothing inherently good in being more free in itself because if the wrong person is more free to do the wrong thing, then the result will be something wrong.

So long as the rules apply to everyone, then bad people can be punished for infringing on the rights of others. If the rules of democracy were applied to everyone, it is not a guarantee that good will prevail, only that the majority opinion will prevail.
 
So long as the rules apply to everyone, then bad people can be punished for infringing on the rights of others. If the rules of democracy were applied to everyone, it is not a guarantee that good will prevail, only that the majority opinion will prevail.

Bad people being punished after the act does not mean that bad things can't happen. We choose to give liberty to people until they do something that we feel make them undeserving of it, so we normally take away their liberty only after they have done something bad. To use the previous example of killing, we give people the liberty to go around do what they want, but if they kill, then we put them in jail. The rule applies to everyone and yet something bad has happened since someone is dead.
 
Bad people being punished after the act does not mean that bad things can't happen. We choose to give liberty to people until they do something that we feel make them undeserving of it, so we normally take away their liberty only after they have done something bad. To use the previous example of killing, we give people the liberty to go around do what they want, but if they kill, then we put them in jail. The rule applies to everyone and yet something bad has happened since someone is dead.

Yes, and the bad part is that the liberty of others has been taken away by force from vigilante criminals.
 
No the bad part is that somebody is dead. Liberty being taken away is not in and of itself a bad thing - for example taking away the liberty of a criminal.
 
No the bad part is that somebody is dead. Liberty being taken away is not in and of itself a bad thing - for example taking away the liberty of a criminal.

It is if the criminal has taken away the liberty of others.
 
It is if the criminal has taken away the liberty of others.

Sure, but it can also be a good thing when we take away the liberty of a criminal as punishment.
 
Sure, but it can also be a good thing when we take away the liberty of a criminal as punishment.

But ONLY AFTER he's taken away the liberty of others. Liberty is the virtue, and when that virtue of one is broken by another, it is therefore an obligation to punish the criminal for violating the liberty of others.
 
But ONLY AFTER he's taken away the liberty of others. Liberty is the virtue, and when that virtue of one is broken by another, it is therefore an obligation to punish the criminal for violating the liberty of others.

Punishment by taking away their liberty, so the act of "taking away liberty" can be a good thing, and the act of "giving liberty" to the wrong person can be a bad thing.
 
Punishment by taking away their liberty, so the act of "taking away liberty" can be a good thing, and the act of "giving liberty" to the wrong person can be a bad thing.

Taking away liberty can only be rarely positive under very restricted circumstances. But no one has the ability to give liberty to anyone. We're discussing the obligation of society to protect individual liberty.
 
Taking away liberty can only be rarely positive under very restricted circumstances. But no one has the ability to give liberty to anyone. We're discussing the obligation of society to protect individual liberty.

We were discussing your claim that Liberty is inherently good, which it isn't. If Liberty can be taken away then it can also be given. Freeing a jailed man is giving the jailed man liberty.
 
Slavery was allowed in the U.S. because the South needed it economical which meant that U.S. needed it (Tobacco was one of the main exports at that time.) If Slavery was banned two things would have happen: A. The South would of left the U.S. before it even really stared, B: The U.S. would have collapse economical since the U.S. need the agriculture of the South to survive at that time.
 
If the government uses the police to stop you from practicing your first amendment rights, wouldn't you say that the government is infringing on your liberty to have free speech?

But what if your idea of "Free Speech" is to go around saying that minorities are sub-human in public places? Or it is standing up in crowded theatres and screaming "Fire!"?

You have the right to say anything you want, but you also have to be responsible and take responsibility for what you say. And if you stand up in Harlem with a sign saying "All blacks should be slaves", well that is your right too. And no Police have the right to stop you from doing that.

However, should they be forced to protect you from the angry mob that forms? Or to protect you from others that express their rights a bit more forcefully?
 
But what if your idea of "Free Speech" is to go around saying that minorities are sub-human in public places? Or it is standing up in crowded theatres and screaming "Fire!"?

You have the right to say anything you want, but you also have to be responsible and take responsibility for what you say. And if you stand up in Harlem with a sign saying "All blacks should be slaves", well that is your right too. And no Police have the right to stop you from doing that.

However, should they be forced to protect you from the angry mob that forms? Or to protect you from others that express their rights a bit more forcefully?

Depends on whether we want an orderly society, if we do, we have to curtail personal liberty in certain circumstances. Which is why I say liberty is not always good.
 
But what if your idea of "Free Speech" is to go around saying that minorities are sub-human in public places? Or it is standing up in crowded theatres and screaming "Fire!"?

You have the right to say anything you want, but you also have to be responsible and take responsibility for what you say. And if you stand up in Harlem with a sign saying "All blacks should be slaves", well that is your right too. And no Police have the right to stop you from doing that.

However, should they be forced to protect you from the angry mob that forms? Or to protect you from others that express their rights a bit more forcefully?

You would be perfectly whithin your rights to do so and that kind of speech, while offensive and furstrating, doesn't cause physical harm.
 
No the bad part is that somebody is dead. Liberty being taken away is not in and of itself a bad thing - for example taking away the liberty of a criminal.

I don't view it as criminal's rights being taken away, but rather, that citizen forfeited his rights when he chose to commit a crime.
 
I don't view it as criminal's rights being taken away, but rather, that citizen forfeited his rights when he chose to commit a crime.

We are not talking about rights, but "liberty" or freedom. Being jailed is having your freedom taken away. "Rights" is by implication a curtainment of freedom. The constitution protects the rights, but those that are not recognised as rights or are not included in the constitution are left without said protection. "Rights" also often comes with limitation - e.g. the rights to freespech but not when it becomes incitement.
 
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