Did the founders intend this to be a Christian nation?

[sebastiansdreams]

Your assumption that I in anyway "enshrine" our founding fathers as "demi-gods" is equally presumptive of you.

I was speaking more in a generalization (notice I didn't use your name the way you used mine). I'm simply pointing out that it is a popular trend to give them some sort of continued voice into how we ought to decide our country's future, and that is pointless and counter-productive.

I do realize they were mere human beings. But to say that the original context of the Costitution was a "screw up" is simply crass.

You know for someone as liberal as you normally swing, you have a very black and white view of things. Just because I am arguing the Constitution is fallible and incomplete doesn't mean that I'm arguing it to be a complete screw up. I'm just saying that even our high and mighty founding fathers were nothing but very smart men. No more great than a great deal of very smart men that live here and now.

You say you would rather custome fit the Constitution so fit today's here and now, but you have absolutely Zero forethought for the generations to come!

To suggest that we continue to evolve the constitution so that it carry into the new century means to carry it into the next hundred years. Granted, a hundred years may not be that long to you at your age, BUT it is still half of the life span of our country, and that is certainly forethought in my book. Rather than spend countless hours looking at original intent, it is much more effective to look at current applicability.

That's what I find inexcusable behavior.

What if I beg from my knees?

The entire spirit of the Constitution allows for change and the realization that change is inevidable. If we were to pigeon hole our laws by making sure that future generation have MORE work to UNDO the crap we do just to fit our vision of the "Here and now" we destroy the spirit of our Constitution.

So you would rather we pigeon hole the Consititution into a game to guess what six or seven men two hundred years removed would have said about a certain issue? I agree, that the Constitution is a living and breathing concept, but it is you who seeks to pin point it into this idea that we can guess at what the founding fathers might have thought about whatever is going on. I do not think that we should ever abandon foresight nor hindsight. But we can't do so at the expense of the here and now. Why search for answers from dead men when there are equally capable men to carry on our Constitution further into the future?

 

[SKILMATIC]

Re:

Did the founders intend this to be a Christian nation?

The answer is simple. They didnt intend it to be a soley a christian nation. Hence the reason why we have freedom of religion. However, it is not argumentative that they did purposely found it on christian principles. And its by these priciples by which we must still follow.

 

[jamesrage]

Did the founders intend this to be a Christian nation?

Here is a few quotes

We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments.


James Madison

We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.
Samuel Adams

 

[Iriemon]

Here is a few quotes

I have scanned a few posts on this thread, lots of arguing back and forth, but I think the answer is pretty simple. If this was supposed to be a Christian nation, they would said so in the Constitution, our governing compact. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[SKILMATIC]

If this was supposed to be a Christian nation, they would said so in the Constitution, our governing compact. Seems pretty simple to me.

You just missed the whole argument my friend. Let me define to you what we are discussing. We arent discussing whether or not the founding fathers wanted this country to be christian or not.

It is whether or not this country's constitution was founded on christian principles.

Please understand the argument first, thank you.

And to make this clear to everyone. "In God We Trust" Sounds pretty straight forward to me. Any questions? :2razz:

 

[Mortibis]

I think it's important to note that many of the framers were influenced by classical republicanism and as such often thought that commonly shared beliefs were a good thing, in this case "Christian" morals. Also, looking at the climate of the times, unless I'm mistaken, an overwhelming majority of the country was Christian; wheras now, the country's citizens follow a veritable mix of religions and non-religions.

 

[JustineCredible]

Here is a few quotes

Quote:
We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments.


James Madison

Let us not forget he ALSO said:

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Quote:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams

"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817

John Adams, also warned:

Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:


"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"


"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

Quote:
“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.
Samuel Adams

You quote Samuel, I'll quote Jefferson:

In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

Jefferson believed in materialism, reason, and science. He never admitted to any religion but his own. In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

Thomas Jefferson interpreted the 1st Amendment in his famous letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802:


"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

Let us also not forget Benjamin Franklin was highly critical of the hypocracy of many of the "christian" denominations:

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England."

Thomas Pain was also outspoken in this area:

"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity. "

 

[JustineCredible]

I think it's important to note that many of the framers were influenced by classical republicanism and as such often thought that commonly shared beliefs were a good thing, in this case "Christian" morals. Also, looking at the climate of the times, unless I'm mistaken, an overwhelming majority of the country was Christian; wheras now, the country's citizens follow a veritable mix of religions and non-religions.

But just because many inhabitents of the colonies were Christian says very little about the Constitution and/or its framers' intent.

I believe their own words speak for themselves. See above reply.

 

[Iriemon]

You just missed the whole argument my friend. Let me define to you what we are discussing. We arent discussing whether or not the founding fathers wanted this country to be christian or not.

It is whether or not this country's constitution was founded on christian principles.

Please understand the argument first, thank you.

And to make this clear to everyone. "In God We Trust" Sounds pretty straight forward to me. Any questions? :2razz:

That is a different question than posed: "Whether the founders intend this to be a Christian nation."

Whether they America was founded on "Christian Principles" -- now I can understand the 47 pages

 

[MrFungus420]

You just missed the whole argument my friend. Let me define to you what we are discussing. We arent discussing whether or not the founding fathers wanted this country to be christian or not.

It is whether or not this country's constitution was founded on christian principles.

Please understand the argument first, thank you.

And to make this clear to everyone. "In God We Trust" Sounds pretty straight forward to me. Any questions? :2razz:

I'm joining in late, haven't read all the posts, so please forgive me if I'm off base.

The thread is titled "Did the founders intend this to be a Christian nation?" Nothing about whether the constitution was founded on Christian principles.

"In God We Trust" was made a second national motto in 1956. What does that have to do with the founding of the country or the Constitution? The national motto put forth by the founding fathers is "E Pluribus Unum", meaning "out of many, one".

Our founders were mostly, if not all, Christians. However, they were very careful to set up a government without religion. The only mention of religion in the Constitution is in the Bill of Rights, guaranteeing the freedom of religion. There is no mention of god.

The Constitution is a restriction of the power of government.

Which parts of the Constitution do you believe are founded on Christian principles?

 

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

You just missed the whole argument my friend. Let me define to you what we are discussing. We arent discussing whether or not the founding fathers wanted this country to be christian or not.

It is whether or not this country's constitution was founded on christian principles.

Please understand the argument first, thank you.

And to make this clear to everyone. "In God We Trust" Sounds pretty straight forward to me. Any questions? :2razz:

In God we trust is a latecomer, which occurred long after the Constitution was written. Look on the great seal of the US where is says "Novus Ordo Seclorum". I translate that as New Secular Order. What do you make it out to be?

 

[SKILMATIC]

In God we trust is a latecomer, which occurred long after the Constitution was written. Look on the great seal of the US where is says "Novus Ordo Seclorum". I translate that as New Secular Order. What do you make it out to be?

True which is why it is so compelling to me and to any individual that even in 1956 we established that motto on our very own currency should tell those who think this nation wastn founded on christian principles that it was.

I ma not doubting that they wanted separation between church and state but this separation never actually occurred. Look at our very own laws which are made by the legislative and enforced through the judicial it is full of christian principles. Which is the very foundation and base of our country. Even our whole governemnt is christian based.

For example, the founding fathers knew that God gave His people choices and He let hem choose. Well they coincided that if God himself governed His world by letting them choose then it would prolly be a good idea to do the same scenario on earth.

So I hope that helped.

 

[MrFungus420]

True which is why it is so compelling to me and to any individual that even in 1956 we established that motto on our very own currency should tell those who think this nation wastn founded on christian principles that it was.

My understanding is that the new motto was implemented as a direct result of McCarthyism. The thinking behind it, and incidently behind adding "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance as well, was that this would force the godless communists to reveal themselves. It was thought that the religious reference would mean that communists wouldn't be able to use our money, and they wouldn't be able to say the Pledge.

I ma not doubting that they wanted separation between church and state but this separation never actually occurred. Look at our very own laws which are made by the legislative and enforced through the judicial it is full of christian principles. Which is the very foundation and base of our country. Even our whole governemnt is christian based.

How do you get that our whole government is Christian based? That is one heck of a stretch. Our legal system can be traced back through the Magna Carta, back through to Roman law, even back to the Code of Hammurbi. Just because there are some things that may be similar, that doesn't mean that they are based on Christian principles.

For example, the founding fathers knew that God gave His people choices and He let hem choose. Well they coincided that if God himself governed His world by letting them choose then it would prolly be a good idea to do the same scenario on earth.

So I hope that helped.

Pure conjecture.

 

[SKILMATIC]

How do you get that our whole government is Christian based? That is one heck of a stretch. Our legal system can be traced back through the Magna Carta, back through to Roman law, even back to the Code of Hammurbi. Just because there are some things that may be similar, that doesn't mean that they are based on Christian principles.

And all those societies were christian based. Ever here of Roman Catholics? I beleive catholicism is a christian denomination last time I checked. So I think its fair to say this argument is done in your own words my good friend.

Pure conjecture.

Your right pure conjecture that made sense and is true. Last decision I made I didnt have God twisting my arm to make. So I think its suffice to say that this argument is done too.

 

[MrFungus420]

How do you get that our whole government is Christian based? That is one heck of a stretch. Our legal system can be traced back through the Magna Carta, back through to Roman law, even back to the Code of Hammurbi. Just because there are some things that may be similar, that doesn't mean that they are based on Christian principles.

And all those societies were christian based. Ever here of Roman Catholics? I beleive catholicism is a christian denomination last time I checked. So I think its fair to say this argument is done in your own words my good friend.

Well, the Code of Hammurabi predates Christianity, as did the Roman legal system. Remember all those Roman gods that there were before the advent of Christianity? So, the basis for our legal system predates Christianity. That makes it rather difficult for the basis of our legal system to be based on Christianity.

 

[SKILMATIC]

Well, the Code of Hammurabi predates Christianity, as did the Roman legal system. Remember all those Roman gods that there were before the advent of Christianity? So, the basis for our legal system predates Christianity. That makes it rather difficult for the basis of our legal system to be based on Christianity.

Yes but I dont preach christianity I preach Gods word. And Gods word is before Hammurabis Code of laws. The Code was written between 1795-1750BC which was Hammurabis reign. And the 10 commandments if my history is correct they came out during Moses' time. Remember when he came down from Mt. Ararat, he carried the tablets with him. That was approximately 1500BC we can prove this also by seeing when was the book of Exodus written. Also just to let you know it was exodus chapter 20 to be exact incase if you dont beleive me.

However, man knew since day 1 the difference from right and wrong. Remember the story of cain and abel? So just becasue the 10 commandments came some 200years later that doesnt mean a thing. Besides how long is the code? I think it has something like almost 300 laws?

 

[psholtz]

Here are a couple of paragraphs from the Federalist Paper #2 written by John Jay. The main thrust of the paper is that a union should be formed. These give reasons why such a union would have a lot going for it.

This is an excellent topic ..

However, John Jay is not one of the Revolutionaries who necessarily rates very high on my list.. Along w/ people like Alexander Hamilton, I get the feeling that he was in it more for the money rather than the principle, and his record as Supreme Court Justice suggests that his *true* loyalties remained w/ Britian both during and after the Revolutionary (political posturing, grandstanding and rhetoric to the contrary).

What Jay writes (in Federalist 2) about "one" people all descended from "one" place practicing "one" religion, etc, is interesting, but such would appear to be more political propaganda than truth. Even during the time of the Revolution, America was composed of a number of different peoples, and English settlers were by no means the majority (although they remained, perhaps, the plurality).

Thomas Paine (a partiot whom I trust far more than John Jay) makes this clear in Common Sense:

But Britain is the parent country, say some. Then the more shame upon her conduct. Even brutes do not devour their young, nor savages make war upon their families; wherefore the assertion, if true, turns to her reproach; but it happens not to be true, or only partly so, and the phrase parent or mother country hath been jesuitically adopted by the king and his parasites, with a low papistical design of gaining an unfair bias on the credulous weakness of our minds. Europe, and not England, is the parent country of America. This new world hath been the asylum for the persecuted lovers of civil and religious liberty from every part of Europe. Hither have they fled, not from the tender embraces of the mother, but from the cruelty of the monster; and it is so far true of England, that the same tyranny which drove the first emigrants from home, pursues their descendants still.

In this extensive quarter of the globe, we forget the narrow limits of three hundred and sixty miles (the extent of England) and carry our friendship on a larger scale; we claim brotherhood with every European christian, and triumph in the generosity of the sentiment.

http://www.bartleby.com/133/3.html

Of course, I suppose in answer to the question that originally launched this thread, it would appear from the above that Thomas Paine regarded the U.S., at least in some abstract sense, as a "Christian" nation..

 

[MrFungus420]

Yes but I dont preach christianity I preach Gods word.

What you personally preach is absolutely irrelevent to the subject. Besides, if what you preach is based on the bible, then it is Christianity. Even if it's only your version of it.

And Gods word is before Hammurabis Code of laws.

Only if you believe in one of only three religions out of the hundreds, if not thousands that humans have made up.

The Code was written between 1795-1750BC which was Hammurabis reign. And the 10 commandments if my history is correct they came out during Moses' time. Remember when he came down from Mt. Ararat, he carried the tablets with him. That was approximately 1500BC we can prove this also by seeing when was the book of Exodus written. Also just to let you know it was exodus chapter 20 to be exact incase if you dont beleive me.

From what I've gathered, any actual writing wasn't done until around 1400 bce. Prior to that, it was maintained through an oral tradition of stories. So, that gives us at least a century of people remembering or mis-remembering a story before it was written down.

However, man knew since day 1 the difference from right and wrong.

So, why didn't they know about god? Why all the different pantheons in so many different cultures? Why didn't they all have just one god? Since so many cultures have had polytheistic pantheons, wouldn't it make more sense to believe that there were multiple gods instead of just one?

If knowing the difference between right and wrong is to be taken as an argument for god, then the polytheistic nature of most early religions should be taken as an argument that if there is a true religion, then it is polytheistic.

Remember the story of cain and abel?

Yes, story. I also remember the story of Herecles. What do stories have to do with anything?

So just becasue the 10 commandments came some 200years later that doesnt mean a thing.

Except that the 10 Commandments have very little to do with our legal system. True, there are some correspondences, but for most of them, there is no reason to believe that they have anything to do with our legal system.

Besides how long is the code? I think it has something like almost 300 laws?

What does the length of the Code of Hammurabi have to do with anything? It formd a large part of the basis for most legal sytems that came later.

 

[thapcballa]

They probably thought it would be Christain nation, because many laws are based on whats a sin and not a sin in the bible.

 

[Freiheits Kämpfer]

True, and many christians tend to be/have been leaders and have a lot of say as to what goes on.

But considering that back in the 18th century the masses were gullible and most likely religious, you can't really blame them. But now that the USA is a "civilised" nation, and claims there should be a gap between church and state, there should be. But it isn't happening, and the gap that was there in the first place seems to be dissolving.

-FK

 

[PopeyeAtheist]

... often thought that commonly shared beliefs were a good thing, in this case "Christian" morals... ...country's citizens follow a veritable mix of religions and non-religions.

How can any religion "own" morals? It is arrogant for any religion to think they have a monopoly on morals.

I don't think I would like to see (most of) the early founders "commonly shared beliefs" used in the United States today.

How about slavery, that was a commonly shared belief?
One of the most heinous things humans can do to one another is OWN them.
Many of the "christians" in this country said their god gave them the right to own other humans.

Will we bring back the laws that would put you in jail for walking into a town on a Sunday.

How about burning witches?
Was that, allthough rare, commonly shared belief a "good thing"?

Just because a society or community has commonly shared beliefs it
does not make their actions RIGHT.

 

[PopeyeAtheist]

Yes but I dont preach christianity I preach Gods word.

Huh?

 

[PopeyeAtheist]

However, man knew since day 1 the difference from right and wrong.

Well that makes US humans very very stupid because we still can't do the right thing most of the time.

 

[PopeyeAtheist]

Re: What is a Christian Nation?

:2wave:


I must apologize to the purists of debate-I at times stray-:3oops: t


I for one, think their is a question-within-a-question here also that should be addressed for this debate to cover all bases...

What is the definition of "what is a Christian nation"?

I think we must also ask what characteristics it would take for the US to be a Christian nation.

 

[sLiPpY]

Here are a couple of paragraphs from the Federalist Paper #2 written by John Jay. The main thrust of the paper is that a union should be formed. These give reasons why such a union would have a lot going for it.



In regard to the characteristics of the people, notice that what is stressed here is the lack of reasons for disagreement rather than the virtue of being English and speaking English and so forth. Jay would doubtless have written much the same had the country's inhabitants been Turks, except that the proposed form of the new government would certainly have been different. The key words here are same and similar. Therefore when Jay writes of the people professing the same religion he is not expressing any value judgement on religion, its necessity or irrelevance. He is merely eliminating it as a source of contention. There is nothing here to indicate that he thinks America should be governed by Christian principles.
:drink

Reading through the quote, it is apparent that the Founding Fathers intention was for trade and commerce. William Rogers who is largely credited with being the father of religious freedom in America, circa 1631. The vast majority of settlements were founded based upon the interest of real estate, and trade. Calvin Coolidge said it best, "the business of government is business."