Did the founders intend this to be a Christian nation?

[SKILMATIC]

I think we must also ask what characteristics it would take for the US to be a Christian nation.

True, very true.

 

[psholtz]

I think the *real* religion followed by America's founders looks more like this:

:2razz: :2razz: :2razz:

 

[GoldPheonix]

Here are a couple of paragraphs from the Federalist Paper #2 written by John Jay. The main thrust of the paper is that a union should be formed. These give reasons why such a union would have a lot going for it.



In regard to the characteristics of the people, notice that what is stressed here is the lack of reasons for disagreement rather than the virtue of being English and speaking English and so forth. Jay would doubtless have written much the same had the country's inhabitants been Turks, except that the proposed form of the new government would certainly have been different. The key words here are same and similar. Therefore when Jay writes of the people professing the same religion he is not expressing any value judgement on religion, its necessity or irrelevance. He is merely eliminating it as a source of contention. There is nothing here to indicate that he thinks America should be governed by Christian principles.
:drink

Not to mention the 1st Amendment prohibiting all of the Republicans religous views...

 

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

Not to mention the 1st Amendment prohibiting all of the Republicans religous views...

Could you expand that a bit? I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[F41]

Not to mention the 1st Amendment prohibiting all of the Republicans religous views...

Could you expand that a bit? I'm not sure what you mean.

Please do, I would like to hear your reasoning on this.

 

[Canuck]

what the founding fathers intended or didnt intend is of no matter.You have to deal with the here and now and its what the ELITE intend that matters now
looking to past will only make matter worse it will make you long for freedom and that can only lead to revolution
as with the forfathers of america the revolutionists had ideals
those ideals can not stand without a revolution as they are beaten back by the ELITE when they do not serve their purposes
oh sure one can claim that he is a christian in the broader sense of the word
but can't say he is one and go to war or condone a war on a destitute people
or lie like bush and defend that liar with more lies
alot of people claim to be christian but reality are no more christian than the zionist evangelists catholic pedophiles or baptist war monger

 

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

what the founding fathers intended or didnt intend is of no matter.You have to deal with the here and now and its what the ELITE intend that matters now
looking to past will only make matter worse it will make you long for freedom and that can only lead to revolution
as with the forfathers of america the revolutionists had ideals
those ideals can not stand without a revolution as they are beaten back by the ELITE when they do not serve their purposes
oh sure one can claim that he is a christian in the broader sense of the word
but can't say he is one and go to war or condone a war on a destitute people
or lie like bush and defend that liar with more lies
alot of people claim to be christian but reality are no more christian than the zionist evangelists catholic pedophiles or baptist war monger

OK, but what's your point?

 

[mike49]

Certainly this country was a Christian country at it's founding.

I have read through most of this thread and I don't believe anyone has brought up the words written at the very end of the constitution where the words "Year of our Lord" appear. That is in the text and is a recognition of God. And of Jesus.

Also, I would point to a case in front of the Supreme Court:

Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States (1892)

Reading through the opinion in that case will leave little doubt as to the question we are discussing.

 

[Fantasea]

Certainly this country was a Christian country at it's founding.

I have read through most of this thread and I don't believe anyone has brought up the words written at the very end of the constitution where the words "Year of our Lord" appear. That is in the text and is a recognition of God. And of Jesus.

Also, I would point to a case in front of the Supreme Court:

Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States (1892)

Reading through the opinion in that case will leave little doubt as to the question we are discussing.

There are many Jews, Protestants, Muslims, as well as agnostics, aethiests and others who are in agreement that life begins at conception and should not be snuffed for the convenience an abortion may provide.

Biology does not subscribe to any religion. Conception is a strictly secular, biological event.

There is no point in dragging the red herring of religion across the trail.

 

[mike49]

There are many Jews, Protestants, Muslims, as well as agnostics, aethiests and others who are in agreement that life begins at conception and should not be snuffed for the convenience an abortion may provide.

Biology does not subscribe to any religion. Conception is a strictly secular, biological event.

There is no point in dragging the red herring of religion across the trail.

Perhaps we have a miscommunication. The topic is "Did the founders intend this to be a Christian nation?", my post was an attempt to answer that very specific question.

On abortion...it should be left to the states and the voters there'in. As should gay marriage.

 

[Fantasea]

Perhaps we have a miscommunication. The topic is "Did the founders intend this to be a Christian nation?", my post was an attempt to answer that very specific question.

On abortion...it should be left to the states and the voters there'in. As should gay marriage.

You are correct. My apology.

 

[F41]

I believe this nation was intended to be a Godly nation, not so much as a Christian one. Yes, Christians came here to escape from English rule and it seem ironic that they (Christians) are comming under attack much as they were from England in the past.

I think our founding fathers wanted this nation to have religious freedom and this freedom is rapidly being denied to Christians today more so then other religion in this country, therefor it could be said that our founding fathers wishes and desires for a free nation under God/Creator is now being denied.

These two scriptures do come to my mind today as Christianity is being attacked in this country and all over the world as well.

Words spoken from Jesus
John 15:18-19
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

As you all know Christianity is a religion with the belief that Jesus is the son of God and it seems to me He speaks this to his followers...Christians

Why is it that Christians are the ones singled out from all other faiths to be denied these rights intended by our founding fathers to worship as they chose without government intervention?
Article I of the Bill of Rights reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

And this document from Jefferson say`s that our government would make no laws prohibiting the free exercise of all of our religions in this country and the wall was to keep government from denying religious rights.

Christians have a right to be included in our government and Christians are well on the road of being denied this right.

 

[cnredd]

Christians have a right to be included in our government and Christians are well on the road of being denied this right.

This is what happens when the Ass Clown Liberals United(ACLU) and the far left cry "Separation of Christianity and State"(Other religions get the greenlight)...:roll:

 

[F41]

This is what happens when the Ass Clown Liberals United(ACLU) and the far left cry "Separation of Christianity and State"(Other religions get the greenlight)...:roll:

Amen to that...What is it about Christians that liberals and the ACLU hate? I just don`t understand. Can one explain this?

 

[cnredd]

Amen to that...What is it about Christians that liberals and the ACLU hate? I just don`t understand. Can one explain this?

It's common knowledge that at some point in time, Christianity will be the minority religion of this country...

The left is attempting to get a leg up for that time...They want to obtain the vote of all of the minority religions combined, so they do so using the "common enemy" theme...Christianity...

Soon it will become not a contest of party affiliations, but a political contest of religious philosophies and there are two ways to achieve victory in a political atmosphere...

1) Be better than the opponent...

2) Make the opponent look so bad that you end up looking better...

The left has no chance at #1, so they attempt #2 by making Christianity the "enemy"...therefore, a coaltion of ALL non-Christian religions will ultimately defeat the perceived "party of the Christians"...

This may ultimately work because the Republican Party is portrayed as the "Evangelical right-wing party"...I detest this portrayal, for I am not one that adheres to this perception, but perception is reality, and that is the way the votes will go...This leaves Republicans that are not strict Christian radicals without a coherant voice...

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Oh this nonsense is about all I can take. The "Christians" in this country are far from being persecuted. Christians whine persecution and "attacks" whenever they cannot enforce their draconian system of thought on others and control their personal behavior.

Whenever they don't get what they want, they play the oppression card, regardless of how absurd it is. If the Christians are persecuted in the USA, then Michael Jackon is psychologically normal. Christians have massive domination of entire voting blocks, have absurd quantities of religious bullshit TV channels, and are one annoyingly huge interest group that toward which the rightwing extremists pander.

If athiest secular liberals are so bad with persecuting them, why the jesus-hell don't we have our own TV network called: The anti-christian atheist network? Even the god-damn KKK has a TV show. No, isntead, we have Pat Roberston and his gang of conmen on 2 networks, and various other stupid old ladies preaching at you, including several televangelist networks.


Please. Christians aren't persecuted here; preventing them for persecuting others = persecution in their eyes.

 

[cnredd]

This may ultimately work because the Republican Party is portrayed as the "Evangelical right-wing party"...I detest this portrayal, for I am not one that adheres to this perception, but perception is reality, and that is the way the votes will go...This leaves Republicans that are not strict Christian radicals without a coherant voice...

If athiest secular liberals are so bad with persecuting them, why the jesus-hell don't we have our own TV network called: The anti-christian atheist network? Even the god-damn KKK has a TV show. No, isntead, we have Pat Roberston and his gang of conmen on 2 networks, and various other stupid old ladies preaching at you, including several televangelist networks.

It didn't take long for someone to prove my point...

They use examples of the KKK and Pat Robertson to portray a bigger conglomerate like the whole Republican Party are followers of this...

That is the perception constantly ground into the public's mind...false as it may be...:roll:

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

It didn't take long for someone to prove my point...

They use examples of the KKK and Pat Robertson to portray a bigger conglomerate like the whole Republican Party are followers of this...

That is the perception constantly ground into the public's mind...false as it may be.

Strawman: My post doesn't prove anything of yours, because you're distorting it on three major accounts:

A. My point wasn't about Republicans--I never mentioned them in the post.
B. My post never implied all republicans were like this due to the previous statement.
B. I mentioned Rightwing Extremists, not Republicans. Now, if you have a bad conscience and think all Republicans are Rightwing-Extremists, that's your problem, not mine. So stop lying about my post. I said nothing that wasn't factual. This is abourt Christians NOT being persecuted, which they aren't here.

Let me correct your misunderstanding"

I didn't say they make up the entire Republican party, however, according to Pew, they do make up a large portion of its voting base. In fact, it's not suprising, since over 40% of the USA is "creationist." Religious fundamentalism is a problem, and it is overwhelmingly part of the Republican party.

However, my point has really nothing to do with Republicans, rather the false statement that Christians in the United States are persecuted and attacked. That's 100% nonsense. Christians, on average, are not persecuted, since the majority of the country is Christian. According to the Latest Gallup poll, almost 70% believe in God and 53% believe in creationism w/out evolution.

Further, out of any religious group, they are the ones who have the most profound quantity of religious networks, organizations, and TV stations.

 

[George_Washington]

Oh this nonsense is about all I can take. The "Christians" in this country are far from being persecuted. Christians whine persecution and "attacks" whenever they cannot enforce their draconian system of thought on others and control their personal behavior.

Whenever they don't get what they want, they play the oppression card, regardless of how absurd it is. If the Christians are persecuted in the USA, then Michael Jackon is psychologically normal. Christians have massive domination of entire voting blocks, have absurd quantities of religious bullshit TV channels, and are one annoyingly huge interest group that toward which the rightwing extremists pander.

If athiest secular liberals are so bad with persecuting them, why the jesus-hell don't we have our own TV network called: The anti-christian atheist network? Even the god-damn KKK has a TV show. No, isntead, we have Pat Roberston and his gang of conmen on 2 networks, and various other stupid old ladies preaching at you, including several televangelist networks.


Please. Christians aren't persecuted here; preventing them for persecuting others = persecution in their eyes.

There are no Christian TV channels. Pat Robertson's 700 Club is not a "channel". It's a show.

The fact is, few television programs today portray wholesome Christian values that were prevalent back in the 50's, 60's, 70's, and even 80's. Our society has become so far removed from the idea that there's such a thing as morality, few shows nowadays are suitable for the whole family to watch.

I'm not saying I object to most of the television shows on the network today; I'm just stating a fact that Christians do not have a strangle hold on teleivsion.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

There are no Christian TV channels. Pat Robertson's 700 Club is not a "channel". It's a show.

No kidding? I never said Pat Roberston's 700 club was a channel. I said there are several other TV networks devoted to Christians. The existence of at least 4 cable networks devoted to proseltyzation falsifies your absurd claim that there are not Christian networks.

The fact is, few television programs today portray wholesome Christian values that were prevalent back in the 50's, 60's, 70's, and even 80's. Our society has become so far removed from the idea that there's such a thing as morality, few shows nowadays are suitable for the whole family to watch.

Christianity is not synonomous with morality, honney. THe 50's-70's weren't the bastions of wholesome goodness as you nostalgically think they were.

I'm not saying I object to most of the television shows on the network today; I'm just stating a fact that Christians do not have a strangle hold on teleivsion.

This isn't true. THe FCC is dominated by Christians who call in and whine a lot about programming. It was noted in an earlier poll that the majority of complaints to the FCC were stemming from ONE institution--and it wasn't secular.

There are also several entirely Christian channels.

 

[F41]

This is abourt Christians NOT being persecuted, which they aren't here.

Where did persecution come into play? Maybe I missed something somewhere, I thought it was the denial of Christian rights in government.

 

[Technocratic_Utilitarian]

Where did persecution come into play? Maybe I missed something somewhere, I thought it was the denial of Christian rights in government.

That is a form of persecution, since persecution denotes:

1. To oppress or harass
2. To cause to suffer

People are pretending that Christians have it so bad in this country, which is complete balderdash. They dominate it. Denial or rights of a particular group, singled out, is persecution. It is being claimed that Christians are being mistreated, in some absurd way, due to their faith.