Did the founders intend this to be a Christian nation?

[Montalban]

My Biggest concern regarding this topic, is that people so readily confuse a nation of christians, whith a Christian nation. Yes, many colonists and founders were Christian. Some weren't. OK, but the ideals that they had were born of the Enlightnement era. Also, the ideals of our Country are NOT unique to Christendom. Ideas of Justice, Liberty, Freedom, Equity, Fairness, Cooperation, Unity and Scientific and artful pursuits are not facets only found in the New Testement. Some were, some are also found in other religions, and some are found in non-religious thought. But the Rationale behind the Consitution and the Bill of Rights in not the satisfaction of Christian pursuit, but that of the classic liberal tradition, which used scientific and rational methods to display and describe its tenets.

The Consitution was an imperfect attempt at securing the rights of Man.

Seems like you think Christianity and these rights are at logger-heads

 

[PopeyeAtheist]

:2wave: No, I do not. I think it is just as important to have Freedom FROM Religion, as it is to have Freedom OF Religion. When States require the display in public schools and public buildings any statement(s) of any religion this will violate our freedom from religion.

 

[PopeyeAtheist]

TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions. ?

If this is your quote then are you saying that Jesus was without convictions?

Because he was VERY tolerant of other people and their life-styles. As long as they did not harm other people or take advantage of them.

I think the so called "Golden Rule" is universal and does not belong to any religion.

 

[libertarian_knight]

Seems like you think Christianity and these rights are at logger-heads

No, not really. I think that Churches and States are at loggerheads with these rights. Churches and States are insitutions of power for the subjugation of man.

There are a great many parallels in the messages of Christ concerning the affairs of man and man, with those of the classic liberal tradition and libertarian thought. However, as I stated there are numerous other modern and pre-Christian era, as well as secular paralells as well. Furthermore, the rationale of thought behind the establishment of the First and Second incarnations of the United States is well documented in Historical Record, in their own words, and to what extent Christianity play a role, is also discussed.

Me? I just wonder what happened to Jesus own writings. Surely an infuential Rabbi who was well versed in Jewish lore and faith, and "The" Son of God was not illiterate. With this, bear in mind that faith in the men holding positions of power have told you about God, is not the same as faith in God.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

TOLERANCE is the virtue of a man without convictions. ?

If this is your quote then are you saying that Jesus was without convictions?

Because he was VERY tolerant of other people and their life-styles. As long as they did not harm other people or take advantage of them.

I think the so called "Golden Rule" is universal and does not belong to any religion.

Sometimes people confuse GRACE with tolerance. Huge difference.

 

[MikeyC]

New to these forums so forgive me for not reading all 34 pages of this thread and maybe this has been addressed (Not unlikely with 34 pages). Weren't most of our founding fathers Deists (As I came to understand after becoming Deist myself)? They may have been members of the Anglican Church, but it's common for the aristocracy to be a part of the dominant religion. The words of the founding fathers talked of natural law quite frequently. The Declaration of Independence's opening statement "We hold these truths to be self-evident" screams of the natural law of Deism. And this would make sense since our founding fathers were a product of Enlightenment, as was Deism.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

New to these forums so forgive me for not reading all 34 pages of this thread and maybe this has been addressed (Not unlikely with 34 pages). Weren't most of our founding fathers Deists (As I came to understand after becoming Deist myself)?

To the contrary, it appears most of the people we consider to be "founding fathers" were not deists at all. I'll give you an interesting read about it, although I warn you know it is coming from what would be considered a bias site. But, I reference you hear because it is a good write up and includes most of the founding fathers in question. However, if this is not sufficient for you, I will retrieve the documents in which these quotes came from to further prove the case.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=29

 

[MikeyC]

Paine: All his beliefs are in line with Deism. All Deists believe in God and accept him as Creator. He asserts an afterlife, not something all Deists believe in, but something acceptable within Deist thought. Some Deists belive in it, others don't.

Franklin: Interesting, but this could just be part of the Founding Father's attempts to be a part of the dominant religion. From Franklin's autobiography, " I soon became a thorough Deist." In context it

Hamilton: Okay, he wasn't Deist. I never thought he was.

Jefferson: He definitely had Deist thoughts though. It appears he only accepted the true teachings of Jesus as moral guides, not divine guides. Again, he spent money on Christian missionaries to teach the Indians morality and to show his support of the dominant religion. Jefferson's interpretation of the Bible clearly rids it of all mysticism and makes it follow natural law. There are letters which prove Jefferson did not accept Christianity, though he did not declare himself a Deist, he certainly had Deist thought. One accuser who said he was an atheist conceded that it appeared he was really a Deist.

Madison: Certainly critisized Christianity a lot.

 

[Kenneth T. Cornelius]

<snip>
Me? I just wonder what happened to Jesus own writings. Surely an infuential Rabbi who was well versed in Jewish lore and faith, and "The" Son of God was not illiterate. With this, bear in mind that faith [in what] men holding positions of power have told you about God, is not the same as faith in God.

That he was educated and intelligent seems obvious, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was literate. He could have learned through oral instruction alone. Too bad he didn't leave any writings. What we are left with today is the result of several centuries of squabbling while men of power got their story mostly straight. The squabbling, of course, continues yet.

 

[PopeyeAtheist]

Sometimes people confuse GRACE with tolerance. Huge difference.

HMMM. So if I said "I cannot TOLERATE religion controlling politics, but I can TOLERATE and respect any religion", is this virtue?

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Paine: All his beliefs are in line with Deism. All Deists believe in God and accept him as Creator. He asserts an afterlife, not something all Deists believe in, but something acceptable within Deist thought. Some Deists belive in it, others don't.

Fair enough. But then, all Christians and Muslims believe in a creator and an afterlife as well. But I do want you to pay attention to the detail that he believed all science exists because of God certainly impliments more than the standard First Moever suggestion.

Franklin: Interesting, but this could just be part of the Founding Father's attempts to be a part of the dominant religion. From Franklin's autobiography, " I soon became a thorough Deist." In context it

If I remember correctly Fanklin either was a Deist and then later in life became a Christian, or was a Christian and later became a Deist. But either way, if he was a Chiristian, he was certainly not one in actions it would seem.

Jefferson: He definitely had Deist thoughts though. It appears he only accepted the true teachings of Jesus as moral guides, not divine guides...

That's walking an interesting line. Because he acts in favor of a faith, and at some points in his life claims himself to be a deist. But, I argue this to you, have you always been a deist? Will you always be a deist? I have certainly not always been a Christian. It would seem that through Jefferson actions, that at very least he strongly supported the spread of Christianity. And that certainly doesn't sound like many deists I am familiar with.

Madison: Certainly critisized Christianity a lot.

So do I. So did Geoffry Chaucer. So did Martin Luther. All of us believe in its message and its power and its accuracy. We just realize that any religion in the hands of the unrighteous can turn very sour very quickly.

 

[MikeyC]

Thomas Paine wrote the Age of Reason which every Deist website I find references in some way. I don't think Deists will argue against that science exists because of God. If he's the Creator then he created science and the natural laws. I think Jefferson was a politician and like all the founding fathers, didn't want to appear againt the dominant religion. Jefferson didn't believe in any of the mysticism of the Bible which means that he just really saw it as a moral guide and because of its dominance, many people could identify with the morals. Jefferson more encouraged the spread of Christian morals, than Christian beliefs. As for myself, I think I'll always be a Deist. My parents are Catholic and Jewish, so obviously I wasn't always Deist, but after I started organizing my own beliefs to figure out which religion I was, I've been a Deist. Yeah, I stretched on Madison a bit. I couldn't find anything to prove that he was definitely a Deist.

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Jefferson: He definitely had Deist thoughts though. It appears he only accepted the true teachings of Jesus as moral guides, not divine guides...

That's walking an interesting line. Because he acts in favor of a faith, and at some points in his life claims himself to be a deist. But, I argue this to you, have you always been a deist? Will you always be a deist? I have certainly not always been a Christian. It would seem that through Jefferson actions, that at very least he strongly supported the spread of Christianity. And that certainly doesn't sound like many deists I am familiar with.

Can you find a quote from Jefferson where he refers to himself or calls himself a deist? I have yet to find one. I have found quotes where he calls himself a Christian. Here's one.

...I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus...
---Thomas Jefferson to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816


"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
-- Thomas Jefferson.

This makes no sense coming from a deist, because deists generally believe that their God does not intervene in the affairs of humans here on earth.

 

[MikeyC]

I think Jefferson was trying to make himself to be Christian like FDR made himself to be not-paralyzed. I can't find quotes where Jefferson calls himself Deist because I think he wanted the support of the dominant religion. It's definitely debatable, but here seems to be a non-biased article which points to both religions and says how you could see it both ways. I think that his rejection of mysticism and his writings as a product of Enlightenment probably made him a Deist. Enlightenment thinkers tended to at least have some Deistic tendancies. Though I suppose Jefferson's beliefs wouldn't be a fully compliant with Deist. He definitely incorporated some Deist beliefs into his writings though.

 

[Montalban]

Thomas Paine wrote the Age of Reason which every Deist website I find references in some way.

Post 282 of defunct version of "Did the founders intend this to be a Christian nation?"
As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensible duty of all government, to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith. Let a man throw aside that narrowness of soul, that selfishness of principle, which the niggards of all professions are so unwilling to part with, and he will be at once delivered of his fears on that head. Suspicion is the companion of mean souls, and the bane of all good society. For myself I fully and conscientiously believe, that it is the will of the Almighty, that there should be diversity of religious opinions among us: It affords a larger field for our christian kindness. Were we all of one way of thinking, our religious dispositions would want matter for probation; and on this liberal principle, I look on the various denominations among us, to be like children of the same family, differing only, in what is called their Christian names."
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/paine-common.html

 

[Dogger807]

Wow this is a long one ... and I just have too throw my two cents in.

Even if the founding fathers did want this country to be basically christian, (Which is quiet possible given the beliefs of the time and the social stigma of being a non believer.) this does not mean we have to be one at this time. when a full 10% are willing to declare/ admit to atheism. (rounded figure from the lowest bias of 5% from fox news and highest of 15% from several atheist groups.) This shows an evolution away from the world view prevalent at the start of our country.

Since this is a sizable amount of the population (even at 5%) their rights must be observed as well.

Reiterated: we may have started with a decidedly christian overview, but times change, people change, and morales change

And by no means does atheist = immoral or amoral

(oh 2001 censes places no religion individuals at roughly 14%)

 

[MikeyC]

People learn their morals elsewhere now-a-days. Personally, I don't like it when punishment is used to encourage good morals. For example, you shouldn't murder people because you'll go to jail or you should't steal because then you'll go to Hell. Though I know the Bible teaches it other ways too. Personally, I learned most of my morals and values studying karate. Also, in a country where Christianity is becoming less popular, certain Christian "morals" aren't really morals, but opinions. Gay marriage in my opinion is prejudice, not morality, but that issue is being discussed on another board I agree with Jefferson in using the Bible as a generally good moral teacher. I was raised Catholic for 8 years and I certainly learned some valuable morals.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

People learn their morals elsewhere now-a-days. Personally, I don't like it when punishment is used to encourage good morals. For example, you shouldn't murder people because you'll go to jail or you should't steal because then you'll go to Hell.

But anyone who knows the Bible is not going to suggest that you are bound for hell because of one act, but rather because all of us our sinners and deserve hell. It's not a matter of the good or the bad, it's the perfect or imperfect, and none of us are imperfect.

 

[MikeyC]

, and none of us are imperfect.

You mean all of are imperfect? I understand that's not the only way the Bible teaches morals why I said overall, the Bible has a positive message and teaches morals other ways too.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

You mean all of are imperfect? I understand that's not the only way the Bible teaches morals why I said overall, the Bible has a positive message and teaches morals other ways too.

That's right. All of us deserve hell, according to the Bible. No one has ever done anything that makes them good enough to go to heaven. The only reason we are allowed into heaven is because of a Sacrifice that we never deserved to be given, but it is offered to us as a gift. But in the end, there is no real scare tactics in the Bible, the Bible practically says no matter how many right things you do, you are still bound for hell without salvation.

 

[Shamgar]

Even if the founding fathers did want this country to be basically christian, (Which is quiet possible given the beliefs of the time and the social stigma of being a non believer.) this does not mean we have to be one at this time. when a full 10% are willing to declare/ admit to atheism. (rounded figure from the lowest bias of 5% from fox news and highest of 15% from several atheist groups.) This shows an evolution away from the world view prevalent at the start of our country.

Sure the leaven (non Christians/nonbleivers) wants equal/rights since they are "moral" . . .

2 Cor 6: 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them ; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Therefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing ; and I will receive you, 18 And I will be a Father to you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.



PUBLIC LAW 97-280 - OCT. 4, 1982

Public Law 97-280 96 STAT. 1211 (97th Congress)

Joint Resolution
Authorizing and requesting the President
to proclaim 1983 as the "Year of the Bible".

Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and blessed nation and people;
Whereas deeply held religious convictions springing from the Holy Scriptures led to the early settlement of our Nation;
Whereas Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States;
Whereas many of our great national leaders --among them Presidents Washington, Jackson, Lincoln and Wilson --paid tribute to the surpassing influence of the Bible in our country’s development, as in the words of President Jackson that the Bible is "the rock on which our Republic rests";
Whereas the history of our Nation clearly illustrates the value of voluntarily applying the teachings of the Scriptures in the lives of individuals, families and societies;
Whereas this Nation now faces great challenges that will test this Nation as it has never been tested before; and
Whereas that renewing our knowledge of and faith in God through Holy Scripture can strengthen us as a nation and a people: Now, therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the President is authorized and requested to designate 1983 as a national "Year of the Bible" in recognition of both the formative influence the Bible has been for our Nation, and our national need to study and apply the teachings of the Holy Scriptures.

Approved October 4, 1982

________________________________
LEGISLATIVE HISTORY-S.J.Res.165:
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, Vol. 128 (1982):
Mar. 31, considered and passed Senate.
Sept. 21, considered and passed House.

 

[MikeyC]

All that law does is honor and recognize the positive influence of the Bible on our nation.

 

[Shamgar]

All that law does is honor and recognize the positive influence of the Bible on our nation.

Thank you for the biased commentary from a god hater. . . . MikeyC.

 

[shuamort]

Thank you for the biased commentary from a god hater. . . . MikeyC.

The only hate I see in this thread isn't coming from MikeyC.

 

[Dogger807]

Sure the leaven (non Christians/nonbleivers) wants equal/rights since they are "moral" . . .

Leaven? the only one making that brag about themself is you.

I do not raise myself above anyone else here . Such is the path to sin of pride. But then again you know the path well.