• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Did Sweden get it Right? (1 Viewer)

Jay59

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 13, 2019
Messages
18,717
Reaction score
4,248
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
This Washington Monthly article thinks so. The main reason is that they did not suffer the collateral damage of shutdowns.

Central to the argument is this study which shows that only Sweden did not have an increase in under age-75 morbidity. In essence, other countries lost people because they could not visit their doctors for non-COVID problems. I sympathize. I lost a tooth because I could not get a cavity treated until it was abscessed.
 
This Washington Monthly article thinks so. The main reason is that they did not suffer the collateral damage of shutdowns.

Central to the argument is this study which shows that only Sweden did not have an increase in under age-75 morbidity. In essence, other countries lost people because they could not visit their doctors for non-COVID problems. I sympathize. I lost a tooth because I could not get a cavity treated until it was abscessed.

Almost from the beginning of this crisis, I've advocated those very actions. Protect the typically most vulnerable, but otherwise let life go on as normally as possible.

The lockdowns, the mask mandates, online schooling, and all the fearmongering turning society into a herd of spooked cattle, stampeding this way and that. All being herded by "the Science" experts, who've often lied, or misled about "the science."

A few State Governors got it right, a few got it very wrong (like Cuomo and other's who packed the elderly sick or not into elder care centers), but most just "followed the science" regardless of inconsistencies.
 
Almost from the beginning of this crisis, I've advocated those very actions. Protect the typically most vulnerable, but otherwise let life go on as normally as possible.

The lockdowns, the mask mandates, online schooling, and all the fearmongering turning society into a herd of spooked cattle, stampeding this way and that. All being herded by "the Science" experts, who've often lied, or misled about "the science."

A few State Governors got it right, a few got it very wrong (like Cuomo and other's who packed the elderly sick or not into elder care centers), but most just "followed the science" regardless of inconsistencies.
It's it odd how the left touts Sweden as the socialist example of what society and government should be when it helps them, but it turns on them when the Covid numbers come in and Sweden's actions refute all of the lockdowns and business closings.
 
It's it odd how the left touts Sweden as the socialist example of what society and government should be when it helps them, but it turns on them when the Covid numbers come in and Sweden's actions refute all of the lockdowns and business closings.
Sweden isnt actually socialist. Its got some welfare aspects that might be considered as such, but theyre a capitalist country through and through.
 
This is the question I got when I first entered this forum and the question I promised to answer after the pandemic and after we had the facts about it. So here is my answer: Yes we got it right....

And I base my answer on the figures for supermortality in Europe during the pandemic:

Here are the figures for change in average number of deaths between 2017-2019 and 2020-2022

The graph shows the percentage change between the average number of deaths per year for 2017-2019 and the average for 2020-2022. Sweden is yellowed: Top of the class ;) (Sverige= Sweden)

Överdödlighet.jpg
 
NATION - COVID DEATHS PER 1 MILLION POPULATION
*****************************************************************
United States - 3,431 (15th highest)

United Kingdom - 3,032 (24th highest

Sweden - 2,324 (43rd highest)

Finland - 1,614 (75th highest)

Denmark - 1,424 (81st highest)

Canada - 1,340 (84th highest)

Israel - 1,323 (87th highest)

Norway - 946 (106th highest)

*****************************************************************

1) Although many of the 229 nations listed have healthcare systems lacking the infrastructure to provide accurate data, they have tended to underestimate for various reasons the impact of COVID-19 on their population!

2) The data from the nations listed on the above chart, however, comes from modern nations with comprehensive healthcare systems
Despite being recognized as the world's only "SUPERPOWER," America's response to the COVID-19 Pandemic was less than "WORLD CLASS" and Sweden
 
Sweden isnt actually socialist. Its got some welfare aspects that might be considered as such, but theyre a capitalist country through and through.

That's all what even the most "socialist' and "radical leftist" politicians here in the US, like Bernie Sanders and AOC, are asking for. If you think otherwise, you have been brainwashed and taught to fear something you don't need to.

 
That's all what even the most "socialist' and "radical leftist" politicians here in the US, like Bernie Sanders and AOC, are asking for. If you think otherwise, you have been brainwashed and taught to fear something you don't need to.

Sweden has a robust welfare state system because it has a small population (and high taxes). That wont work here in the US.
 
It works fine in every developed, and developing, nation on the planet.

The most recent spectacular success was Thailand.

I own property in Thailand, and I stay there every now and then. Thailand's UHC is very recent, started in the early 2000s, and there are already concerns about its long term viability. Also, it's a tiered system, and I wouldnt want to stay in the government owned hospitals if I was being treated there.
 
I own property in Thailand, and I stay there every now and then. Thailand's UHC is very recent, started in the early 2000s, and there are already concerns about its long term viability.

OK. Let me know when they change it.
Also, it's a tiered system,

So is anyone proposing anything different here? Just asking for basic safety nets so no one just dies, or suffers from chronic pain, or goes blind, etc.... from easily treated conditions.

and I wouldnt want to stay in the government owned hospitals if I was being treated there.

If you were not as advantaged and among the poor in Thailand, I bet you would feel differently. Public policy and health policy can't all just be about you. I know that may come as a revelation.
 
NATION - COVID DEATHS PER 1 MILLION POPULATION
*****************************************************************
United States - 3,431 (15th highest)

United Kingdom - 3,032 (24th highest

Sweden - 2,324 (43rd highest)

Finland - 1,614 (75th highest)

Denmark - 1,424 (81st highest)

Canada - 1,340 (84th highest)

Israel - 1,323 (87th highest)

Norway - 946 (106th highest)

*****************************************************************

1) Although many of the 229 nations listed have healthcare systems lacking the infrastructure to provide accurate data, they have tended to underestimate for various reasons the impact of COVID-19 on their population!

2) The data from the nations listed on the above chart, however, comes from modern nations with comprehensive healthcare systems
Despite being recognized as the world's only "SUPERPOWER," America's response to the COVID-19 Pandemic was less than "WORLD CLASS" and Sweden
The thing with these figures is that we have measured differently. Some have counted anyone with Covid that died as a death by Covid, even though the person dead of for example heartfaliure. Some have tested the elderly persons that died within state care for Covid, and if they had Covid that has been counted as the death cause. Some have not even offered healthcare and the persons has dead at home undiagnosed. So the figures doesn't really tell you anything, but the supermortalityfigures does....
 
The thing with these figures is that we have measured differently. Some have counted anyone with Covid that died as a death by Covid, even though the person dead of for example heartfaliure.

Covid and other infections can severely exacerbate heart failure- as well as other things like kidney failure, diabetes, blood pressure, etc... . It will make someone with heart failure die because they have very little cardiovascular reserve for the stress of the infection. Almost every doctor around the world would count someone who dies of heart failure after getting Covid as having died of Covid as the primary cause.
 
Covid and other infections can severely exacerbate heart failure- as well as other things like kidney failure, diabetes, blood pressure, etc... . It will make someone with heart failure die because they have very little cardiovascular reserve for the stress of the infection. Almost every doctor around the world would count someone who dies of heart failure after getting Covid as having died of Covid as the primary cause.
Doesn't matter, It has been registered differently in different countries.
 
but in one respect we failed. We did not protect the very elders who lived in care homes. The fact that they do not appear in our excess mortality statistics is because many of them would have died of other causes during the same time frame.
 
OK. Let me know when they change it.
The fact that Thailand is already talking about it means theres problems.

And all you have to do is look at the UK's NHS to see where its ended up:


The US is already planning to raise SS retirement age. Why? Because we cant pay for it.

France is also raising their retirement age:


So is anyone proposing anything different here? Just asking for basic safety nets so no one just dies, or suffers from chronic pain, or goes blind, etc.... from easily treated conditions.

Where are you going to get the money from, comrade?

If you were not as advantaged and among the poor in Thailand, I bet you would feel differently. Public policy and health policy can't all just be about you. I know that may come as a revelation.

Since you love socialism so much, why dont you move to Cuba or Venezuela? They have UHC too.
 
The fact that Thailand is already talking about it means theres problems.

There's problems with enforcing traffic lights too. You want to get rid of all traffic lights too.
And all you have to do is look at the UK's NHS to see where its ended up:


Let me know when they get rid of it.
The US is already planning to raise SS retirement age. Why? Because we cant pay for it.

I'm actually OK with raising the retirement age a little bit. Back when SS and Medicare were set at age 65, life expectancy was at 67. Now it's like 80 something. People are living longer and healthier. I think it's OK if we expect them to work a little more. I would raise it at least to 67 or so.
Where are you going to get the money from, comrade?
Same place every other developed nation on the planet gets it from.
Since you love socialism so much, why dont you move to Cuba or Venezuela? They have UHC too.

There is no developed nation on the planet that lives with such poor healthcare as the US.

Americans are living shorter, unhealthier lives than almost all other peer nations, yet outspend all of them by vast margins when it comes to health care. It's a pretty stupid system. These other countries may have their own problems with their healthcare system, but I promise you very few people in those countries want to emulate the American system. They pity us. No one lives like this. It's barbaric.
 
The fact that Thailand is already talking about it means theres problems.

And all you have to do is look at the UK's NHS to see where its ended up:


The US is already planning to raise SS retirement age. Why? Because we cant pay for it.

France is also raising their retirement age:




Where are you going to get the money from, comrade?



Since you love socialism so much, why dont you move to Cuba or Venezuela? They have UHC too.
Yeah, France raising the pension age from 62 to 64... In Sweden we raised from 65 to 68 a year or two ago...
 
  • Like
Reactions: PoS
How-Does-The-U.S.-Healthcare-System-Compare-To-Other-Countries-chart-1.jpg


Sweden has a robust welfare state system because it has a small population (and high taxes). That wont work here in the US.

1) Inefficiency is a pervasive problem in healthcare systems. In fact, the World Health Organization estimates that, on average, 20—40% of total health spending worldwide is wasted.

2) Had the US adopted a universal healthcare system as the rest of the world's modern nations, it would be in a position to adopt "ECONOMIES OF SCALE," as opposed to the piecemeal, inefficient system that have resulted in the highest per capita costs!

3) Americans have created the worst of all possible world's with respect to healthcare - expected to pay for the CADILLAC" of medical systems, only to receive a substandard product in return!

  • The U.S. spends more on health care as a share of the economy — nearly twice as much as the average OECD country — yet has the lowest life expectancy and highest suicide rates among the 11 nations.
  • The U.S. has the highest chronic disease burden and an obesity rate that is two times higher than the OECD average.
  • Americans had fewer physician visits than peers in most countries, which may be related to a low supply of physicians in the U.
  • Compared to peer nations, the U.S. has among the highest number of hospitalizations from preventable causes and the highest rate of avoidable deaths.
4) Over a million Americans have become "medical tourists" annually - forced to seek medical procedures outside of the US due to prohibitive costs!

5) Any nation that is prepared to devote more of its healthcare dollars to administration costs, as opposed to long-term care of its older citizens, has lost sight of its priorities and has allowed itself to be held hostage by the private healthcare sector!


How-Does-The-U.S.-Healthcare-System-Compare-To-Other-Countries-chart-2.jpg



 
Last edited:
How-Does-The-U.S.-Healthcare-System-Compare-To-Other-Countries-chart-1.jpg
1) Inefficiency is a pervasive problem in healthcare systems. In fact, the World Health Organization estimates that, on average, 20—40% of total health spending worldwide is wasted.

1. I have very little trust in the "World Health Organization." Weren't they the ones who bought into Chinese propaganda about how Covid was not transmitted human to human?

2) Had the US adopted a universal healthcare system as the rest of the world's modern nations, it would be in a position to adopt "ECONOMIES OF SCALE," as opposed to the piecemeal, inefficient system that have resulted in the highest per capita costs!

LOL! You haven't any understanding of the power of both Big Pharma and Big Insurance in the USA. You also fail to recognize that the USA is NOT a "socialist paradise" which taxes its higher wage earners up to 90% of their income in order to pay for everyone else.

Thats a major burden on middle and upper class citizens in most of your "European" examples.

Now in tiny, mostly "homogenous" nations like Denmark (6 million), Finland (5.5 million), Norway (5.5 million), or even Sweden (11 million) that idea might fly.

But we have individual cities (ex. NYC 8.9 million, Greater Los Angeles area 12.5 million) and many States as well with populations larger than each of those countries.

3) Americans have created the worst of all possible world's with respect to healthcare - expected to pay for the CADILLAC" of medical systems, only to receive a substandard product in return!

Not really. What we do have is a society that pushes excess in almost everything, especially eating habits. But also, drug use (legal and illegal), drinking alcohol, indolence (more time spent in front of TV's and computers and on handheld devices), and "vaping" (as a replacement for cigarettes).

What we don't push is diet and exercise. Meanwhile or Medical Industry does push drugs for everything from "restless leg syndrome" to "gender reassignment hormone" treatments.

However, we still do have the best medical care available...at the highest prices the "market" will bear.

  • The U.S. spends more on health care as a share of the economy — nearly twice as much as the average OECD country — yet has the lowest life expectancy and highest suicide rates among the 11 nations.

See "Pushes excess..." above. All the better to keep the medical industry fully financed and stockholders and purveyors of healthcare reaping big dividends.

  • The U.S. has the highest chronic disease burden and an obesity rate that is two times higher than the OECD average.
  • Americans had fewer physician visits than peers in most countries, which may be related to a low supply of physicians in the U.
  • Compared to peer nations, the U.S. has among the highest number of hospitalizations from preventable causes and the highest rate of avoidable deaths.

See above.

4) Over a million Americans have become "medical tourists" annually - forced to seek medical procedures outside of the US due to prohibitive costs!

So 0.3%? Oh my! :eek:

5) Any nation that is prepared to devote more of its healthcare dollars to administration costs, as opposed to long-term care of its older citizens, has lost sight of its priorities and has allowed itself to be held hostage by the private healthcare sector!

Now I have been ragging on your "evidence," but I actually agree with you when it comes to the problems with the US Medical Industry.

It seems they are more interested in profit than adhering to the writing of Hypocrites in "Of the Epidemics:" "The physician must be able to tell the antecedents, know the present, and foretell the future — must mediate these things, and have two special objects in view with regard to disease, namely, to do good or to do no harm." This is the true source of many Physician's oaths.
 
Last edited:
MATERNAL MORTALITY RATE - annual number of female deaths per 100,000 live births from any cause related to or aggravated by pregnancy or its management (excluding accidental or incidental causes)
- US ranks 55/184 with 19 deaths per 100,000 live births
- tied with Ukraine, Moldavia, Oman, Roumania, Latvia all with 19
- Canada ranks 39/194 with 10 deaths per 100,000 live births

INFANT MORTALITY RATE- number of deaths of infants under one year old in a given year per 1,000 live births in the same year
- used as an indicator of the level of health in a country
- US ranks 54/227 with 5.12 deaths per 1,000 live births between Bosnia and Herzegovina (5.10) and Roumania (5.65)
- Canada ranks 43/227 with 4.31 deaths per 1,000 live births
- Cuba ranks 40/227 with 4.07 deaths

LIFE EXPECTANCY AT BIRTH - compares the average number of years to be lived by a group of people born in the same year, if mortality at each age remains constant in the future
- also a measure of overall quality of life in a country
- US ranks 48/227 with 80.75 years, between Sr Martin (80.80) and Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan de Cunha (80.70)
- Canada ranks 6/227 with 83.99 years
- Cuba ranks 59/229 with 79.87 years

Only in America will you find that its citizens are willing to pay the world's highest medical costs for substandard results - literally taking 3.24 years off their lives for the privilege of stating that they are not living in "a socialist paradise" and much prefer the advantages private healthcare system, should any exist!

Canadians on the other hand take a more pragmatic approach -
- preferring to spend $5,905 per capita annually on healthcare vs the $12,318 in America
- choosing to divert only $196 per capita for healthcare administration costs, as compared to $1,055 in the US
- allocating some of those cost savings into long-term care ($1,077 per capita) vs the $967 in America
- enjoying those 3.24 years of additional lifespan - meanwhile their American counterparts lie peacefully in their graves, secure in the knowledge that their loyalty to private healthcare has been vindicated!


Footnote: The data was deliberately taken from the CIA Factbook to forestall any claims that international sources were suspect and/or had an anti-American biases!

 
Last edited:
There's problems with enforcing traffic lights too. You want to get rid of all traffic lights too.


Let me know when they get rid of it.


I'm actually OK with raising the retirement age a little bit. Back when SS and Medicare were set at age 65, life expectancy was at 67. Now it's like 80 something. People are living longer and healthier. I think it's OK if we expect them to work a little more. I would raise it at least to 67 or so.

Same place every other developed nation on the planet gets it from.


There is no developed nation on the planet that lives with such poor healthcare as the US.

Americans are living shorter, unhealthier lives than almost all other peer nations, yet outspend all of them by vast margins when it comes to health care. It's a pretty stupid system. These other countries may have their own problems with their healthcare system, but I promise you very few people in those countries want to emulate the American system. They pity us. No one lives like this. It's barbaric.
BS. US HC is among the best in the world. If you hate it so much go move to Venezuela already.
 
BS. US HC is among the best in the world.

Sure. If you're in the top 1%, you can get the best nose jobs and boob jobs on the planet. Otherwise, we are barely keeping up above Bangladesh on most public health measures.

If you hate it so much go move to Venezuela already.

So you think Venezuela is the only place with universal healthcare? LOL.

Every single developed economy on the planet has it. Every single developing economy is getting it- with spectacularly good results from almost every public health measure.
 
Sure. If you're in the top 1%, you can get the best nose jobs and boob jobs on the planet. Otherwise, we are barely keeping up above Bangladesh on most public health measures.



So you think Venezuela is the only place with universal healthcare? LOL.

Every single developed economy on the planet has it. Every single developing economy is getting it- with spectacularly good results from almost every public health measure.
I just gave you examples of why UHC cant be sustained. You seem to think money grows on trees, just like the rest of your ilk does.
 
Sweden had competent national leadership. The United States did not.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top Bottom