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Did Erdogan knew the sail would be violent?

ido_

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Criticism in Turkey: Erdogan knew Gaza sail would be violent - Israel News, Ynetnews

Politicians from Turkey's opposition parties and a number of columnists have expressed concern over the fueling of public rage towards Israel by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan's government in the aftermath of the deadly raid on the Gaza-bound flotilla.

According to the critics, this policy is jeopardizing the delicate balance Turkey has maintained in its ties with the East and West. The public agenda, they say, is being dictated by the formerly obscure Humanitarian Relief Foundation, or IHH, an Islamist charity group believed by many to have links to global terror organizations.

...

Kemal Kilicdaroglu, chairman of The Republican People's Party and one of the opposition's leaders, told Turkish television, "The European Union and the United States consider Hamas a terror organization. We must be careful." The politician also demanded that the government release communications with Israel prior to the incident, suggesting it allowed the flotilla to proceed despite knowing that violence was likely.

Its encouraging to hear other voices coming from Turkey, the question is how loud are they? How relevant are they? Is a journalist who writes such a colum in Turkey is considered moderate and popular or is he/she considered radical oppositionist.
 

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Criticism in Turkey: Erdogan knew Gaza sail would be violent - Israel News, Ynetnews



Its encouraging to hear other voices coming from Turkey, the question is how loud are they? How relevant are they? Is a journalist who writes such a colum in Turkey is considered moderate and popular or is he/she considered radical oppositionist.

Well we know the Rachel Corrie did not do what her government asked so I think it is probably a red herring to have expected Turkey to have any say in this.

That being said there is a concern about Turkey moving towards the Islamist side. Balance is what is needed. Hopefully a good impartial inquiry will go a long way to creating that.
 

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Well we know the Rachel Corrie did not do what her government asked so I think it is probably a red herring to have expected Turkey to have any say in this.

That being said there is a concern about Turkey moving towards the Islamist side. Balance is what is needed. Hopefully a good impartial inquiry will go a long way to creating that.

The Irish government's level of involvement in the Rachel Corrie ship does not say anything about the Turkish government's level of involvement in the Mavi Marmara or the flotilla as a whole.
 

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The Irish government's level of involvement in the Rachel Corrie ship does not say anything about the Turkish government's level of involvement in the Mavi Marmara or the flotilla as a whole.

Tell me more. I understood the flotilla was organised by Free Gaza who at the time were working from Cyprus but who are looking for a new home, possibly London.
 

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Tell me more. I understood the flotilla was organised by Free Gaza who at the time were working from Cyprus but who are looking for a new home, possibly London.

The Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara, was sent there on the courtesy of the IHH organization, filled with IHH members, which is a Turkish organization which defines itself as humanitarian although some, including Israel and a Danish institute for research, claim that it has connections to Hamas, Global Jihad and al-Qaeda.
IHH is also a member in the "Union of Good" which is referred to by Americans as a terrorist supporting organization due to its financial support for Hamas.
 

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The Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara, was sent there on the courtesy of the IHH organization, filled with IHH members, which is a Turkish organization which defines itself as humanitarian although some, including Israel and a Danish institute for research, claim that it has connections to Hamas, Global Jihad and al-Qaeda.
IHH is also a member in the "Union of Good" which is referred to by Americans as a terrorist supporting organization due to its financial support for Hamas.

I am aware of all this but for this trip it was working under the auspices of Free Gaza who have been organising these trips for some time. Where does this involved the Turkish government any more than the Irish Government which seems to have become involved in order to make sure none of it's citizens were harmed.
 

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I am aware of all this but for this trip it was working under the auspices of Free Gaza who have been organising these trips for some time. Where does this involved the Turkish government any more than the Irish Government which seems to have become involved in order to make sure none of it's citizens were harmed.

The entire incident with this flotilla has occurred on the top deck of the Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara, which was mostly filled with IHH members.
The connection, if existing, would be between the IHH and the Turkish government.
News networks have already reported on a pattern of support for Erdogan by the IHH organization existing way before the flotilla incident.
 

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The entire incident with this flotilla has occurred on the top deck of the Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara, which was mostly filled with IHH members.
The connection, if existing, would be between the IHH and the Turkish government.
News networks have already reported on a pattern of support for Erdogan by the IHH organization way before the flotilla incident.

Israel originally said that she had found papers indicating that the people killed were terrorists. She later had to retract this. In line with that I see most of what you have said as jumping to conclusions which is not helpful in getting to the truth.

Humanitarian aid should not be something that is frowned on when supported. This flotilla was not designed to end up in any violence. The reason for the violence and deaths has not yet been investigated.
 

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Israel originally said that she had found papers indicating that the people killed were terrorists. She later had to retract this. In line with that I see most of what you have said as jumping to conclusions which is not helpful in getting to the truth.
Retracted it?
What are you talking about?

IDF releases names of flotilla 'terrorists' - Israel News, Ynetnews

This flotilla was not designed to end up in any violence. The reason for the violence and deaths has not yet been investigated.

First sentence is a jump to conclusion, second is saying that we should not jump to conclusions.
Ridiculous, really.
 

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Israel originally said that she had found papers indicating that the people killed were terrorists. She later had to retract this. In line with that I see most of what you have said as jumping to conclusions which is not helpful in getting to the truth.

Humanitarian aid should not be something that is frowned on when supported. This flotilla was not designed to end up in any violence. The reason for the violence and deaths has not yet been investigated.

Read the paper, it is not Israel who makes this claims in this case, it is Erdogan's opposition, he called the goverment to publish the "communications with Israel prior to the incident, suggesting it allowed the flotilla to proceed despite knowing that violence was likely."
 

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Israel originally said that she had found papers indicating that the people killed were terrorists. She later had to retract this. In line with that I see most of what you have said as jumping to conclusions which is not helpful in getting to the truth.

Humanitarian aid should not be something that is frowned on when supported. This flotilla was not designed to end up in any violence. The reason for the violence and deaths has not yet been investigated.

Going head first into a blockade with the navy aiming its guns at you, that could be a cause I am not sure ;)
 

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Retracted it?
What are you talking about?

I have already provided a link and quote for this in another thread which you were a part of, twice but here it is again

The Israeli army also backed down last week from an earlier claim that soldiers were attacked by al-Qaida "mercenaries" aboard the Gaza flotilla. An article appearing on the IDF spokesperson's website with the headline: "Attackers of the IDF soldiers found to be al-Qaida mercenaries", was later changed to "Attackers of the IDF Soldiers found without identification papers," with the information about al-Qaida removed from the main article. An army spokesperson told the Guardian there was no evidence proving such a link to the terror organisation.

Israel forced to apologise for YouTube spoof of Gaza flotilla | World news | The Guardian


First sentence is a jump to conclusion, second is saying that we should not jump to conclusions.
Ridiculous, really.

Fair enough. Free Gaza has said repeatedly that that everyone was made very clear before the journey that violence was not an option. Given that this has certainly been the case on other trips I saw no reason to disbelieve that that was indeed what they were told.

The rest, the people who became involved in violence, who they were and why they became involved in the violence that I do not know and that is what I am waiting to find out. That for me is a question that no one has as yet, including Free Gaza, provided an answer to.

That and the shootings is what the inquiry is about.

Now, I have other things to do. I did not intend on getting into a lengthy time on this morning, so I will have a look back later.
 

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I have already provided a link and quote for this in another thread which you were a part of, twice but here it is again



Israel forced to apologise for YouTube spoof of Gaza flotilla | World news | The Guardian
So they've retracted the statement that it was a group of merceneries from al-Qaeda, that doesn't mean that they've retracted the claim that some of the activists were involved in terrorist activities.
Read the link I gave you, it has the names and detailed activities of some of the activists.
 

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So they've retracted the statement that it was a group of merceneries from al-Qaeda, that doesn't mean that they've retracted the claim that some of the activists were involved in terrorist activities.
Read the link I gave you, it has the names and detailed activities of some of the activists.

The link you gave still says some of them are related to Al Qaeda in the heading anyway. it gives the names of 5 people and the extent to which they may or may not be involved in terrorism is probably debatable. I probably would not pay too much attention to it if it was not that I had previously found an article where Kenneth O'Keefe, one of those on the lists, boasts about disarming Israeli soldiers - but not hurting them.

Could five people manage to get a crowd up in arms - unfortunately easily. It is not impossible for one person to stir a crowd.

What has concerned me is that nobody has said how the passengers got up in arms. Maybe no one knows.

Two things are said. The passengers believed they were getting live fire fired on them and were in fear of their lives. Whether they were or not is not so important in this instance, if they thought they were that would induce a heightened tension where they might be encouraged to fight back. It is a possibility but the inquiry will need to show it as well as that the soldiers did not over respond - too many bullets and so on.

I have also seen photos of passengers helping wounded soldiers and telling other passengers to keep away from them.

It may have just been that people believed they were under attack and so fought back or it may be that someone deliberately stirred them up to create the outcome. For me at the moment both options are possibilities.
 
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I am aware of all this

You are aware that they are Islamists with ties to terrorism, but support them so much that you call their deaths an act of "execution" and promote the Iranian state propaganda apparatus to support your views.

Got it.
 
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You are aware that they are Islamists with ties to terrorism, but support them so much that you call their deaths an act of "execution" and promote the Iranian state propaganda apparatus to support your views.

Got it.

Fail the IDF posted that they have ties thought they picked the persons with the wrong back history. when an ex-US Marine Ken O’Keefeis know for his non violence, and being a US Veteran
This is what I have too say about The IDF saying that some people had ties to terrorism.

Dector.gif
 
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You are aware that they are Islamists with ties to terrorism, but support them so much that you call their deaths an act of "execution" and promote the Iranian state propaganda apparatus to support your views.

Got it.

You are excelling yourself at your misrepresentation. I do not need a reminder of why I generally ignore you and only came on to see the post of the subsequent poster.
 

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You are excelling yourself at your misrepresentation. I do not need a reminder of why I generally ignore you and only came on to see the post of the subsequent poster.

Misrepresentation? It's called truth. You might try it some time.



Here is the posting where you promote the Iranian propaganda apparatus: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...a-flotilla-says-hamas-135.html#post1058791415

Here is the posting where you advanced the propaganda that the deaths of the Islamist attackers were an execution style killing. http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...a-flotilla-says-hamas-134.html#post1058790946
 

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The link you gave still says some of them are related to Al Qaeda in the heading anyway. it gives the names of 5 people and the extent to which they may or may not be involved in terrorism is probably debatable. I probably would not pay too much attention to it if it was not that I had previously found an article where Kenneth O'Keefe, one of those on the lists, boasts about disarming Israeli soldiers - but not hurting them.

Could five people manage to get a crowd up in arms - unfortunately easily. It is not impossible for one person to stir a crowd.

What has concerned me is that nobody has said how the passengers got up in arms. Maybe no one knows.

Two things are said. The passengers believed they were getting live fire fired on them and were in fear of their lives. Whether they were or not is not so important in this instance, if they thought they were that would induce a heightened tension where they might be encouraged to fight back. It is a possibility but the inquiry will need to show it as well as that the soldiers did not over respond - too many bullets and so on.

I have also seen photos of passengers helping wounded soldiers and telling other passengers to keep away from them.

It may have just been that people believed they were under attack and so fought back or it may be that someone deliberately stirred them up to create the outcome. For me at the moment both options are possibilities.

I find all of your posts on the subject to be very dependent on the activists' words.
Yes, that Kenneth guy said he did that, and those other activists have said they've done that, but when it comes down to real proof we have a footage video of them attacking soldiers with knives and crowbars.
I do not find any need to take the word of someone who was part of the violent crowd, just like I'm not going to buy into a witness account by a member of Hamas.
I believe the rest of the objective world is with me on this, I don't see many giving so much importance to the claims of those activists, who came to this region for the pure sake of propaganda.

The most ridiculous thing here however is your last sentence in that post.
"It may have just been that people believed they were under attack and so fought back or it may be that someone deliberately stirred them up to create the outcome. For me at the moment both options are possibilities."
Do you even realize how many more options there are?
And one of the main and most probable options right now, is that those people were actually attacking for the sake of attacking.
They were trying to kill, just like when a militant is opening fire on a British soldier in Afghanistan.
 
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RyrineaHaruno

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Misrepresentation? It's called truth. You might try it some time.



Here is the posting where you promote the Iranian propaganda apparatus: http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...a-flotilla-says-hamas-135.html#post1058791415

Here is the posting where you advanced the propaganda that the deaths of the Islamist attackers were an execution style killing. http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...a-flotilla-says-hamas-134.html#post1058790946


Bull**** dector again

Dector.gif



This man is a Us Veteran, and is one of the people that were named in the supposed terrorist ties list.So I call bull **** on this.
 

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I believe the rest of the objective world is with me on this, I don't see many giving so much importance to the claims of those activists, who came to this region for the pure sake of propaganda.

.

Yes, but one out of every thousand or so people doesn't do the trick as far as Israel is concerned. What I see as Israel's big failing is that it vastly overestimates people's ability to sort out truth from propaganda, underestimates the level of pure stupidity in the world, and assumes that most people are even capable of objectivity or even aspiring towards it. The Islamist propaganda network realizes that most people are little more than programmable packets of opinion who can be manipulated quite easily to doing their bidding as long as the correct triggers are engaged. All these various appeals to numbers and appeals to authority indicate those who have been programmed value conformity above all elase. It makes them feel comfortable to be saying what all their little mates say, and the Islamists understand that groupthink works in their favor since their numbers are so overwhelming compared to Jewish voices.

What Israel needs to realize is that they are losing the war of opinion, and no amount of objective analysis will ever change such. People are stupid, easily swayed creatures for the most part, and will say most anything if enough others say it and if they trust the source of the memes they reproduce. For those at a different level of awareness, certainly those appeals to objectivity can work, but just as this forum shows -- even when unedited film of an event is available to people, their resultant rhetorec is dependant only upon the way they have been trained to respond. The need for conformity and social acceptance is just too strong to overcome the cognitive dissonance, and so people will swear up and down that they see three fingers when you are only showing them two.
 

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Yes, but one out of every thousand or so people doesn't do the trick as far as Israel is concerned. What I see as Israel's big failing is that it vastly overestimates people's ability to sort out truth from propaganda, underestimates the level of pure stupidity in the world, and assumes that most people are even capable of objectivity or even aspiring towards it. The Islamist propaganda network realizes that most people are little more than programmable packets of opinion who can be manipulated quite easily to doing their bidding as long as the correct triggers are engaged. All these various appeals to numbers and appeals to authority indicate those who have been programmed value conformity above all elase. It makes them feel comfortable to be saying what all their little mates say, and the Islamists understand that groupthink works in their favor since their numbers are so overwhelming compared to Jewish voices.

What Israel needs to realize is that they are losing the war of opinion, and no amount of objective analysis will ever change such. People are stupid, easily swayed creatures for the most part, and will say most anything if enough others say it and if they trust the source of the memes they reproduce. For those at a different level of awareness, certainly those appeals to objectivity can work, but just as this forum shows -- even when unedited film of an event is available to people, their resultant rhetorec is dependant only upon the way they have been trained to respond. The need for conformity and social acceptance is just too strong to overcome the cognitive dissonance, and so people will swear up and down that they see three fingers when you are only showing them two.

I find it quite simple: When someone, anyone, in an argument about a group of people attacking another group of people, is choosing to base his entire argument - which sides with the attackers - as "No but the attackers have said that...", or "No but the attackers have this and this titles...", he should know that it's clearer than crystal he is promoting pure propaganda.
 

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I find it quite simple: When someone, anyone, in an argument about a group of people attacking another group of people, is choosing to base his entire argument - which sides with the attackers - as "No but the attackers have said that...", or "No but the attackers have this and this titles...", he should know that it's clearer than crystal he is promoting pure propaganda.

They should, but they don't. They lack the awareness necessary to understand the difference between objective fact and sheer opinion. Plus, they are so heavily invested in the notion that their hatred for the target is actually some sort of virtue, that they need to invent one fantasy after another in order to order to deal with the cognitive dissonance inherent in viewing the actual event and their need to demonize in order to feel virtuous. If you look at the developments of their arguments, the need for new ones arise when their old are debunked, and so now you have it that these "peace activists" who lynched the Israelis so savagely were fired upon first. Setting aside the sheer lack of basic reasoning ability required to ignore the fact nobody was ducking or running for cover -- what would be the obvious response to gunfire -- their trust in the source of the propaganda they further is such that they rush to believe the jihadists word instead of trusting their own eyes. You couldn't ask for a better example of brainwashing.


It's really quite sad, really, but countless Europeans are so gripped with cultural self-loathing and motivated to such hatred because they think it is a virtue that they will gladly accept a fantasy that doesn't burst their bubble instead of acknowledging the reality that would.
 

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I find all of your posts on the subject to be very dependent on the activists' words.

Then you are misreading me. For a start not everything I have said is concerned with what activists say and when it is it is because of a particular point, so that is not true. It is particularly untrue with regard to 'that Kenneth guy', below, because if you read what I said properly you would have seen that it was because of the fact that he was speaking about his part in disarming soldiers which made me give what you wrote more thought. You also, perhaps this comes from translation or perhaps you are just choosing to misread me, but just because I quote something does not mean I am saying it is true or untrue, I am simply quoting what the person says. I am still involved in my own investigation and learning.

Yes, that Kenneth guy said he did that, and those other activists have said they've done that, but when it comes down to real proof we have a footage video of them attacking soldiers with knives and crowbars.

If you have proof of 'that Kenneth guy' attacking soldiers with knives and crowbars of course you will be able to present this. As I have already said he has already spoken of disarming soldiers. He has not said he was uninvolved, though yes, he said he did not harm the soldiers he disarmed. Now you have made a definite point. This will need to be proved. We all know that there was a fight. We just do not know why. If I believed I was about to be killed, would I fight even though I was supposed to just sit there and die if need be. I do not know. I am not Ghandi.

That is something you refuse to understand. It is extremely important what the people on the boat believed the situation to be, more important than what the situation was.

I have also said and left link to listening to a previous boat the Arion and hearing them being told in no uncertain terms that they would be fired on. They were not but they were told they would be. This highlighted to me the importance of what the people on the boat thought.


I do not find any need to take the word of someone who was part of the violent crowd, just like I'm not going to buy into a witness account by a member of Hamas.
I believe the rest of the objective world is with me on this, I don't see many giving so much importance to the claims of those activists, who came to this region for the pure sake of propaganda.

Then you and the rest of the 'objective' world would be no good in courts of law. It is not sufficient just to say someone is guilty of something, you have to prove it. A person for instance fighting for his life is not the same as someone fighting because he has a desire to hurt someone. They are too entirely different situations.


The most ridiculous thing here however is your last sentence in that post.
"It may have just been that people believed they were under attack and so fought back or it may be that someone deliberately stirred them up to create the outcome. For me at the moment both options are possibilities."
Do you even realize how many more options there are?

Indeed there are a great number of options. At the current moment on what I know now, those are the two most likely. If further evidence was produced, I might change my mind but it so far has not been.



They were trying to kill, just like when a militant is opening fire on a British soldier in Afghanistan.

Maybe, maybe not. I certainly have seen nothing yet to make me come to that conclusion. No Israeli died. 9 of them died with multiple gunshot wounds. Perhaps they were as they say just trying to protect themselves.

You would not get a job in a court of law in our country.

We still have not seen the beginning of the fighting and the time beforehand and we have not see the people killed. Never known it to take so long to show that.
 
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