Did Christianity Cause the Crash?

[Picaro]

This topic could go into several different sections, religion, economics, and immigration and assimilation, etc, but the economics of the article are of more general interest, at least to me, so I put it here. The title of the article is misleading, it's about the 'Prosperity Gospel', not Christianity per se, and there is a good section on how banks marketed loans to these 'churches' congregations, but it is a good one worth reading.

Did Christianity Cause the Crash?

America’s mainstream religious denominations used to teach the faithful that they would be rewarded in the afterlife. But over the past generation, a different strain of Christian faith has proliferated—one that promises to make believers rich in the here and now. Known as the prosperity gospel, and claiming tens of millions of adherents, it fosters risk-taking and intense material optimism. It pumped air into the housing bubble. And one year into the worst downturn since the Depression, it’s still going strong.

....

Many explanations have been offered for the housing bubble and subsequent crash: interest rates were too low; regulation failed; rising real-estate prices induced a sort of temporary insanity in America’s middle class. But there is one explanation that speaks to a lasting and fundamental shift in American culture—a shift in the American conception of divine Providence and its relationship to wealth.

...

I had come to Charlottesville to learn more about this second strain of the American dream—one that’s been ascendant for a generation or more. I wanted to try to piece together the connection between the gospel and today’s economic reality, and to see whether “prosperity” could possibly still seem enticing, or even plausible, in this distinctly unprosperous moment. (Very much so, as it turns out.) Charlottesville may not be the heartland of the prosperity gospel, which is most prevalent in the Sun Belt—where many of the country’s foreclosure hot spots also lie. And Garay preaches an unusually pure version of the gospel. Still, the particulars of both Garay and his congregation are revealing.

Among Latinos the prosperity gospel has been spreading rapidly. In a recent Pew survey, 73 percent of all religious Latinos in the United States agreed with the statement: “God will grant financial success to all believers who have enough faith.” For a generation of poor and striving Latino immigrants, the gospel seems to offer a road map to affluence and modern living. Garay’s church is comprised mostly of first-generation immigrants. More than others I’ve visited, it echoes back a highly distilled, unself-conscious version of the current thinking on what it means to live the American dream.

One other thing makes Garay’s church a compelling case study. From 2001 to 2007, while he was building his church, Garay was also a loan officer at two different mortgage companies. He was hired explicitly to reach out to the city’s growing Latino community, and Latinos, as it happened, were disproportionately likely to take out the sort of risky loans that later led to so many foreclosures. To many of his parishioners, Garay was not just a spiritual adviser, but a financial one as well.
...

More recently, critics have begun to argue that the prosperity gospel, echoed in churches across the country, might have played a part in the economic collapse. In 2008, in the online magazine Religion Dispatches, Jonathan Walton, a professor of religious studies at the University of California at Riverside, warned:

Narratives of how “God blessed me with my first house despite my credit” were common … Sermons declaring “It’s your season of overflow” supplanted messages of economic sobriety and disinterested sacrifice. Yet as folks were testifying about “what God can do,” little attention was paid to a predatory subprime-mortgage industry, relaxed credit standards, or the dangers of using one’s home equity as an ATM.

In 2004, Walton was researching a book about black televangelists. “I would hear consistent testimonies about how ‘once I was renting and now God let me own my own home,’ or ‘I was afraid of the loan officer, but God directed him to ignore my bad credit and blessed me with my first home,’” he says. “This trope was so common in these churches that I just became immune to it. Only later did I connect it to this disaster.”

Bolded parts added by me.

Did Christianity Cause the Crash? - Magazine - The Atlantic

... and more, on the banks themselves and how they chose loan officers during the boom, and no, they weren't chosen for their financial genius, just their amoral willingness to peddle loans to the unqualified.

This sort of thing is also why 'churches' should be taxed like businesses; the Constitution doesn't say a thing about making them tax exempt. More links, pro and con:

[ame=http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=did+christianity+cause+the+crash%3F+Hannah+Rosin&btnG=Google+Search]Google[/ame]

 

[Caedon]

Given that roughly 20% of people actually attend religious services on a regular basis in the US of A, I have a hard time believing that the messages they hear in only some of these churches had enough of an impact to overshadow any other stupid decisions made by either the other 80% or the government.

In sum, did prosperity teaching help? Probably not. Was it even a significant secondary cause of the current economic meltdown? Probably not.

 

[Picaro]

Given that roughly 20% of people actually attend religious services on a regular basis in the US of A, I have a hard time believing that the messages they hear in only some of these churches had enough of an impact to overshadow any other stupid decisions made by either the other 80% or the government.

The title of the article is tongue-in-cheek, but I think the overall point she's making is a valid one. While it's likely that only 20% attend regularly, it's the distribution, where and who, of those 20% that's important, and then there is also those who watch these preachers on TV or listen on the radio.

The last stat I heard on the number of mortgages in trouble was some 24 to 25%, and as the article points out the distribution follows closely with the demographics in the article. It doesn't really claim Christianity caused the crash, or even the main cause, but it does make a fair case for the 'Prosperity Gospel' being a significant factor. A lot of the story is of course anecdotal stuff, I agree, but still some interesting connections and cross currents.

I

 

[cpwill]

Inasmuch as it teaches on the subject, Christianity teaches it's adherents to avoid debt. I would say this is a cultural bit rather than a religious one. The Bible doesn't teach that GOd will make you rich; it teaches that God will take care of you if you put the resources you are given worldly power over back into His hands.

 

[Picaro]

Inasmuch as it teaches on the subject, Christianity teaches it's adherents to avoid debt. I would say this is a cultural bit rather than a religious one. The Bible doesn't teach that GOd will make you rich; it teaches that God will take care of you if you put the resources you are given worldly power over back into His hands.

I agree, and it is about culture, not 'Christianity' per se; did you read the entire article? Do you think there are several valid observations on that aspect of American culture? The political implications are also of note.

 

[Goshin]

Caedon and cpwill pretty much nailed it.

I'll just throw in that I consider the "gospel of prosperity" to be a populist, rather than Biblical, creed. I further think that it distracts from the proper message of the gospel, which isn't about materialism at all.

 

[Mick]

Inasmuch as it teaches on the subject, Christianity teaches it's adherents to avoid debt. I would say this is a cultural bit rather than a religious one. The Bible doesn't teach that GOd will make you rich; it teaches that God will take care of you if you put the resources you are given worldly power over back into His hands.

Many Christian churches offer debt counseling and teach budgeting as a part of spiritual growth. cpwill points to the principles they are attempting to teach.

I found that when I tithed 10% of my income and saved another 10%, I tended to watch expenditures and invest wisely. Prosperity doctrine is not about a goose laying golden eggs; it encourages discipline of worldly desires and serving God first. Not that I've met this standard yet.....:doh

 

[washunut]

Many Christian churches offer debt counseling and teach budgeting as a part of spiritual growth. cpwill points to the principles they are attempting to teach.

I found that when I tithed 10% of my income and saved another 10%, I tended to watch expenditures and invest wisely. Prosperity doctrine is not about a goose laying golden eggs; it encourages discipline of worldly desires and serving God first. Not that I've met this standard yet.....:doh

Seems like this prosperity doctrine promotes personal greed. It may not be a root cause, but is very similar to the get rich quick crowd that cut corners in the housing market.

 

[Mick]

Seems like this prosperity doctrine promotes personal greed. It may not be a root cause, but is very similar to the get rich quick crowd that cut corners in the housing market.

You have a point. There are plenty of unscrupulous or simply misinformed pastors out there. For some, unfortunately, it is a business first and the need an angle that sells.

 

[cpwill]

Seems like this prosperity doctrine promotes personal greed.

i have never heard of "prosperity doctrine" as a phrase before, but inasmuch as he described it, it seems more that it promotes personal discipline. the Bible has plenty of lessons in how to behave with money, and where to make sure it comes in the list of priorities.

 

[washunut]

i have never heard of "prosperity doctrine" as a phrase before, but inasmuch as he described it, it seems more that it promotes personal discipline. the Bible has plenty of lessons in how to behave with money, and where to make sure it comes in the list of priorities.

You mean saying don't pay your loans is promoting personal discipline? If so then I guess we can just disagree about what constitutes personal greed. I was taught to pay my bills, never allow myself to be overextended in debt etc. I don't pray at the alter of the almight buck.

 

[NoJingoLingo]

Read up on the "prosperity doctrine" and "the Family".

Yes the bible does talk about handling money.

# Exodus 22:25
" If you lend money to My people, to the poor among you, you are not to act as a creditor to him; you shall not charge him interest.

# Leviticus 25:36
' Do not take usurious interest from him, but revere your God, that your countryman may live with you.

# Leviticus 25:37
'You shall not give him your silver at interest, nor your food for gain.

# Deuteronomy 23:19
" You shall not charge interest to your countrymen: interest on money, food, or anything that may be loaned at interest.

# Deuteronomy 23:20
" You may charge interest to a foreigner, but to your countrymen you shall not charge interest, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land which you are about to enter to possess.

# Psalm 15:5
He does not put out his money at interest,Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent He who does these things will never be shaken.

# Proverbs 28:8
He who increases his wealth by interest and usuryGathers it for him who is gracious to the poor.

# Ezekiel 18:8
if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,

# Ezekiel 18:13
he lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

 

[washunut]

Read up on the "prosperity doctrine" and "the Family".

Yes the bible does talk about handling money.

# Exodus 22:25
" If you lend money to My people, to the poor among you, you are not to act as a creditor to him; you shall not charge him interest.

# Leviticus 25:36
' Do not take usurious interest from him, but revere your God, that your countryman may live with you.

# Leviticus 25:37
'You shall not give him your silver at interest, nor your food for gain.

# Deuteronomy 23:19
" You shall not charge interest to your countrymen: interest on money, food, or anything that may be loaned at interest.

# Deuteronomy 23:20
" You may charge interest to a foreigner, but to your countrymen you shall not charge interest, so that the LORD your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land which you are about to enter to possess.

# Psalm 15:5
He does not put out his money at interest,Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent He who does these things will never be shaken.

# Proverbs 28:8
He who increases his wealth by interest and usuryGathers it for him who is gracious to the poor.

# Ezekiel 18:8
if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,

# Ezekiel 18:13
he lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

I guess the question is how is this being represented by some clergy. I do not go to church so am responding to the above.

 

[cpwill]

You mean saying don't pay your loans is promoting personal discipline?

actually the bible teaches 1. not to cosign loans and 2. if you are in any debt, pay it off and quickly. I think we're getting some of our wires crossed here.

 

[washunut]

actually the bible teaches 1. not to cosign loans and 2. if you are in any debt, pay it off and quickly. I think we're getting some of our wires crossed here.

I don't think we are talking about what the bible says, but how a certain type of clergy interpret it.

 

[cpwill]

perhaps so; i've never seen clergy preach walking away from debts, however. quite the opposite.

 

[juanx]

religion will NEVER grant any sort of prosperity towards its brainwashed believers! open your eyes!!!!!!!

 

[Goshin]

religion will NEVER grant any sort of prosperity towards its brainwashed believers! open your eyes!!!!!!!

Thank you for that insightful and relevant observation.

Truly, the depth of your intellect is dizzying. Your elocution knows no bounds; the manner in which you support your points with logic, reason and example is overwhelming.

Surely no one here will dare cross swords with such a master of debate? Why, the very shades of great orators of the past would tremble in fear of such confrontation.

Hemingway and Lord Byron must be turning over in their graves, from sheer jealously at your command of the subtle nuances of the English language.


Indeed, this is a supremely impressive example of rhetoric and oratory, logic and persuasion. Surely all who read it will be changed forever by the transformative profundity of its incredible verbage.

I hereby nominate the above for DP's Post Of The Year.


(/irony)


G.

 

[cpwill]

perhaps he's a double agent?

 

[Iwa]

Thank you for that insightful and relevant observation.

Truly, the depth of your intellect is dizzying. Your elocution knows no bounds; the manner in which you support your points with logic, reason and example is overwhelming.

Surely no one here will dare cross swords with such a master of debate? Why, the very shades of great orators of the past would tremble in fear of such confrontation.

Hemingway and Lord Byron must be turning over in their graves, from sheer jealously at your command of the subtle nuances of the English language.


Indeed, this is a supremely impressive example of rhetoric and oratory, logic and persuasion. Surely all who read it will be changed forever by the transformative profundity of its incredible verbage.

I hereby nominate the above for DP's Post Of The Year.


(/irony)


G.

you really like to push peoples buttons dont you goshy. You push mine, and now my friends...wow how low can you get man? step it up and grab life by the balls instead of by the sarcasm.

 

[Goshin]

you really like to push peoples buttons dont you goshy. You push mine, and now my friends...wow how low can you get man? step it up and grab life by the balls instead of by the sarcasm.

Said the genius who thinks the Apollo moon landings were all a fake, perpetuated by a giant conspiracy. :roll:


When you, or your friends, post something that indicates that thought processes were involved beyond those required to regurgitate some Micheal-Moore-esque nonsense that you absorbed somewhere, then you might garner some respect.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Moderator's Warning:

Two things. Firstly, personal attacks are not allowed, so stop immediately. Secondly, I thought about moving this to Conspiracy Theory, but as long as the suppositions remain based on Economics, and the overall theory is not defended, it can stay here.

 

[Picaro]

Why would it go under 'Conspiracy Theory'? The 'Prosperity Gospel' isn't a 'conspiracy', it's a significant religious movement with influence on both economic policy and politics in the U.S.; Pat Robertson and other leading Protestant clerics are proponents of it, especially in the 'Christian Fundamentalist' conservative wing of the Party, and responsible for many of the Conservative economic platforms of the last Bush Administration.

In any case, I found it an interesting article in its entirety and thought it worthy of a post or two. As a poster on another board pointed out, the effects of believing in this 'Gospel' can also lead to those believing it into believing other highly subjective, religion based economic myths, like 'Invisible Hands in the Market', 'efficient markets', 'Social Darwinism', 'supply side' economics, and other equally fantastic economic superstitions as well, all even more subjective and baseless myths. I question whether religious beliefs and ideological wish lists are all that different in influencing economic activity and policies.

 

[Goshin]

Why would it go under 'Conspiracy Theory'? The 'Prosperity Gospel' isn't a 'conspiracy', it's a significant religious movement with influence on both economic policy and politics in the U.S.; Pat Robertson and other leading Protestant clerics are proponents of it, especially in the 'Christian Fundamentalist' conservative wing of the Party, and responsible for many of the Conservative economic platforms of the last Bush Administration.

In any case, I found it an interesting article in its entirety and thought it worthy of a post or two. As a poster on another board pointed out, the effects of believing in this 'Gospel' can also lead to those believing it into believing other highly subjective, religion based economic myths, like 'Invisible Hands in the Market', 'efficient markets', 'Social Darwinism', 'supply side' economics, and other equally fantastic economic superstitions as well, all even more subjective and baseless myths. I question whether religious beliefs and ideological wish lists are all that different in influencing economic activity and policies.

I would have to differ with you in some particulars.

The "prosperity gospel" is actually more popular among segments of Christianity that would probably not wish to be called "fundamentalists". Indeed most "fundamentalists" would not wish to be associated with something so focused on materialism as the so-called "prosperity gospel".

The PG is most commonly associated with megachurches, another institution many fundamentalists consider tainted with populism.

IMO the PG has already had its peak and passed its time, and is unlikely to expand further. Nor was it ever something a majority of Christians embraced.

You are painting with too broad a brush, sir.

 

[Picaro]

I would have to differ with you in some particulars.

The "prosperity gospel" is actually more popular among segments of Christianity that would probably not wish to be called "fundamentalists". Indeed most "fundamentalists" would not wish to be associated with something so focused on materialism as the so-called "prosperity gospel".

The 'Prosperity Gospel' has strong roots in early Protestantism, especially Calvinism; nearly all Fundamentalist churches preach it ti some degree or other, even if not to the extremes of the churches discussed in the article, so yes, most 'Fundies' do associate with it.

The PG is most commonly associated with megachurches, another institution many fundamentalists consider tainted with populism.

Some, not most.

IMO the PG has already had its peak and passed its time, and is unlikely to expand further. Nor was it ever something a majority of Christians embraced.

It's very alive and well; one mega-church equals many many little ones in membership, and there are small churches preaching it; all of the mega-churches were once small ones, usually starting out in someone's living room. One of the reasons so many Fundie' churches endorse Republicans, abortion aside, is the belief that American prosperity comes from God, and America is 'prosperous' is because of God's blessing.

The 'Prosperity Gospel' is very alive and well, as can be seen daily on the several religious TV and radio networks. It's still growing.

You are painting with too broad a brush, sir.

I doubt it.