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Did Biblical events really exist?

Thinker said:
No we haven't. No such thing has been established. If it has, it should be easy
for you to provide a reference to the relevant paper in the scientific literature.
ask any scientist and they will answer the same, this world and these material things are finite, meaning they have a beginning and an end, every person that walks this earth is born and will die at some point in time, so this leads us to the logical conclusion that the same goes for matter. classic deductive reasoning.
 
dthmstr254 said:
ask any scientist and they will answer the same, this world and these material things are finite, meaning they have a beginning and an end, every person that walks this earth is born and will die at some point in time, so this leads us to the logical conclusion that the same goes for matter. classic deductive reasoning.

If you look at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1951406.stm you
will find two scientists (Princeton, US, and Cambridge University, UK) who would
not "answer the same". So your assertion has been proved wrong by counter
example. That is classic reasoning.

Your deduction that the existence of matter is related to the existence of things
made from that matter is far from logical. That is classic erroneous reasoning.
 
steen said:
So it was "silliness" that ...

No, it was this:

steen said:
Oh? You are not referring to silly claims of the Bible such as a "world-wide flood" that cannot possibly be true, were you? You are not trying to present allegories as facts, are you?

Maybe I am wrong, and if so, I apologize for my assumption, but I believe it should have been obvious that I was talking about after-Sinai events related to Hebrews.

steen said:
Instead of being such a silly coward, owe up to your refusal to deal with facts. (There, are we done with the personal insults or are you going to spew even more?)

I have yet to spew any, actually, and yours means nothing to me. So, you decide, eh?!

Question: What facts do you allege I refuse to face?

steen said:
So you are admitting personal belief rather than facts, yes.

No, I simply said it would be impossible for me to not believe the facts.

You seem so mean-spirited ...

Am I misunderstanding you, or might you be related to the alleged thinker nearby?
 
Thinker said:
If you look at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1951406.stm you
will find two scientists (Princeton, US, and Cambridge University, UK) who would
not "answer the same". So your assertion has been proved wrong by counter
example. That is classic reasoning.

Your deduction that the existence of matter is related to the existence of things
made from that matter is far from logical. That is classic erroneous reasoning.
counter the counter with
http://www.jaywile.com/
Dr. Jay L. Wile, author of the Apologia curriculum, holds an earned Ph.D. from the University of Rochester in nuclear chemistry and a B.S. in chemistry from the same institution. He has won several awards for excellence in teaching and has presented numerous lectures on the topics of Nuclear Chemistry, Christian Apologetics, Homeschooling, and Creation vs. Evolution. In addition, he has published 30 articles on these subjects in nationally-recognized journals. His teaching credentials include:


The University of Rochester
Indiana University
Ball State University
The Indiana Academy for Science, Mathematics and Humanities (a high school for gifted and talented students)

Dr. Wile is currently devoting his full time to the various Apologia ministries. He is dedicated to the concept of home schooling and is trying to keep as many students in home school for as long as possible.

Dr. Wile is an accomplished lecturer and will speak to your organization on a variety of topics. Please E-MAIL us at jlwile@highschoolscience.com for more information.
this is from their website. we could go back and forth showing scientists who would beg to differ. that would be outright flaming, and i dont think that i am interested in a debate that is heavy on math as i do not like the subject. please, shall we move on to a different topic?
 
dthmstr254 said:
counter the counter with
http://www.jaywile.com/

this is from their website. we could go back and forth showing scientists who would beg to differ. that would be outright flaming, and i dont think that i am interested in a debate that is heavy on math as i do not like the subject. please, shall we move on to a different topic?

You were the one making the claim "ask any scientist and they will answer the
same". I made no claim about all scientists, rather I simply demonstrated that
your claim was easy to prove false.

If you are happy to accept that your original claim that "we have already
established that matter has a beginning and an end" was false, we can
move on.
 
my basic opinion on this issue is that whether or not these things happened is 100% irrelevant. The message is still the same. Christianity is SUPPOSED to be a way that we act personally and to each other, we are SUPPOSED to act with unending love and forgiveness, although quite a few of these so-called Christians obviously only subscribe for the moral superiority they feel when they invoke God's name.
 
Thinker said:
I see. How do you connect the continuing existence of people mentioned in the bible to evidence of supernatural biblical events?

The Hebrews "continuing existance" is not the whole of the matter, but they had a "supernatural beginning" of sorts -- Abraham's wife was beyond her child-bearing years, and Abraham had long since given up on ever having a son -- and have since "supernaturally survived and thrived" in a world that yet contains much acted-upon hatred toward them.

Thinker said:
What particular supernatural event are you talking about?

Have you not heard me mention Sinai?

YHWH's appearance at Sinai is part of the overall and insoluble "glue", tenacity and common-to-all sense-of-purpose of a magnitude known only to the Hebrew people.
 
leejosepho said:
The Hebrews "continuing existance" is not the whole of the matter, but they had a "supernatural beginning" of sorts -- Abraham's wife was beyond her child-bearing years, and Abraham had long since given up on ever having a son -- and have since "supernaturally survived and thrived" in a world that yet contains much acted-upon hatred toward them.
Limits on child bearing are statistical. That means that there will a range
of ages when women stop being able to have natural children. Some will
stop earlier, some later. There is nothing supernatural about the occasional
woman conceiving late in life. Here's an example: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6469784/

Have you not heard me mention Sinai?
You mentioned that place many times. What you had not mentioned
was a specific supernatural event.

YHWH's appearance at Sinai is part of the overall and insoluble "glue",
tenacity and common-to-all sense-of-purpose of a magnitude known only to
the Hebrew people.

I have no clear idea what you mean by that. Would you care to rewrite it in
simple non-convoluted language?

I assume that your supernatural event is a "vision" one man had. No doubt at
some time in your unfortunate past you have been intoxicated enough to see
visions; it's very common and means nothing. Visions become more likely as
stress and fatigue increase. It seems likely that a man under huge
pressures of responsibility towards his people and probably malnourished
would see "visions" after climbing a mountain while hoping for help. These
days, visions are known as hallucinations. Shamans do it all the time.

An old story reporting the claims that one man had a vision is not evidence.
 
Thinker said:
There is nothing supernatural about the occasional woman conceiving late in life ...

Yes, but in this case, Abraham's wife was already known to be barren for a very long time, and Abraham had "given up trying" so to speak. That situation is not the same as someone experiencing a past-her-prime pregnancy.

Thinker said:
You mentioned that place [Sinai] many times. What you had not mentioned was a specific supernatural event.

Please pardon my assumption that the full expression "the Sinai experience" used elsewhere would be heard even if/when I only wrote "Sinai".

Thinker said:
I have no clear idea what you mean by that. Would you care to rewrite it in simple non-convoluted language?

I will gladly do so after you have re-worded your request in a more civil manner.

Thinker said:
I assume that your supernatural event is a "vision" one man had ...

No, I am talking about what *everybody* who was there actually and literally saw and heard during that overall "Sinai experience".

Thinker said:
[Any] old story reporting the claims that [only] one man had a vision is not evidence.

Agreed, and that fact is crucial to my point!
 
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Thinker said:
You were the one making the claim "ask any scientist and they will answer the
same". I made no claim about all scientists, rather I simply demonstrated that
your claim was easy to prove false.

If you are happy to accept that your original claim that "we have already
established that matter has a beginning and an end" was false, we can
move on.
ok, correction, ask any non left wing liberal scientist and they will tell you that what i said is true.
 
I have no clear idea what you mean by that. Would you care to rewrite it in
simple non-convoluted language?
if you mean to interpret YHWH, we as Christians and/or Jews are not permitted to communicate that in full writing, as it is the most holy name of God, we must therefore leave the vowels out. if you want to see the full translation, here:
http://www.hiscovenantministries.org/yhwh.htm
 
dthmstr254 said:
eeehhh, i am learning to be a lawyer major and ministry minor, what in the world is quantum singularity inversion.
What it looks like caused the Big Bang.
all i know about most evolutionists is that they are naturalists, meaning that they believe in what they see, which means matter. we have already established that matter has a beginning and an end.
Huh? The Scientific Theory of Evolution has nothing to do with the Big Bang. I am not sure why you are trying to draw an irrelevant connection here?
so that means that if you go far enough back then nothing of matter exists, meaning no energy, no energy means no explosion, and no explosion means no big bang. i have very good skills when it comes to abductive reasoning, i should warn you.
That's nice. What do you have in the actual form of factual knowledge about the Scientific Theory of Evolution? I didn't exactly see a strong Science background in your credentials that you apparently saw a need to mention.
 
dthmstr254 said:
ask any scientist and they will answer the same,
I am a scientists, and I am saying your claim is false. Please don't start off here making blatantly false statements about others, OK? Your knowledge of quantum physics mechanics seems to be absolutely nil.
this world and these material things are finite, meaning they have a beginning and an end, every person that walks this earth is born and will die at some point in time, so this leads us to the logical conclusion that the same goes for matter. classic deductive reasoning.
"classic deductive reasoning," my @$$ It is pure sophistry.

Did you know that you are a rock? After all, you can't fly, and neither can a rock. There you are, pure "classic deductive reasoning," the silly idea that correlation is actaul causation or fact.

Now, do you have any actual knowledge in this area, any actual facts? Or is it all "CDR" nonsense?
 
dthmstr254 said:
ok, correction, ask any non left wing liberal scientist and they will tell you that what i said is true.
Really? Scientific facts depends on one's political leanings? Your claims are even sillier than I first thought. Not only do you seem ignorant of the Scientific Theory of Evolution. You seem utterly ignorant of the Scientific Method and Science in general. Please assure us otherwise, so we don't feel we are wasting our time dealing with utter ignorance.

because you are not just yet ANOTHER flyby creationist loon, are you?
 
Steen, you’re a scientist…in all sincerity could you tell me what does last forever?
 
Viper said:
Steen, you’re a scientist…in all sincerity could you tell me what does last forever?
Entrophy would be one thing that lasts forever.
 
dthmstr254 said:
ok, correction, ask any non left wing liberal scientist and they will tell you that what i said is true.

Does anyone else find the statement about "left wing liberal scientist" rather ironic from someone who linked to a "scientist" that is a Biblical Apologist?
 
leejosepho said:
I will gladly do so after you have re-worded your request in a more civil manner.

You, as someone who accuses me of being "ignorant, stupid or just plain
ill-willed" (in another thread), are a hyprocrite to charge me with being uncivil.
 
dthmstr254 said:
ok, correction, ask any non left wing liberal scientist and they will tell you that what i said is true.

For someone who professes "very good skills when it comes to abductive
reasoning", you display a singular lack of abililty. Unless you develop some real
skills I fear you will be toast if you ever try to practise as a lawyer.

I think your use of the word "abductive" is telling; it's now clear you were using
it in the sense of "carried away by fraud".
 
Thinker said:
You, as someone who accuses me of being "ignorant, stupid or just plain ill-willed" (in another thread), are a hyprocrite to charge me with being uncivil.

I have made no such accusation, and your tone would sound no different even if I had.

However, I will admit I was being "civilly tacky" (an oxymoron for which I apologize) when purposefully thinking out loud as I did.
 
dthmstr254 said:
if you mean to interpret YHWH ...

Thank you for your helpful efforts, dthmstr254, but Thinker was asking about this:

leejosepho said:
YHWH's appearance at Sinai is part of the overall and insoluble "glue", tenacity and common-to-all sense-of-purpose of a magnitude known only to the Hebrew people.

In other words, and with "appearance" including "present, and putting on quite an 'exceedingly loud' display":

Those folks, and altogether as "one", were truly "moved" by what took place at Sinai, and nothing will ever dissolve their resolve or tenacity to bear witness of The Almighty One, and there is no other such nation or people anywhere on earth.
 
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leejosepho said:
I have made no such accusation, and your tone would sound no different even if I had.

However, I will admit I was being "civilly tacky" (an oxymoron for which I apologize) when purposefully thinking out loud as I did.

In message #75 of the thread "Re: Why do Athiests and other non-god
believing people have a problem with religion/g" you said:

I am honestly having a difficult time figuring out whether you are
ignorant, stupid or just plain ill-willed, alleged thinker.

Are you a liar or did you have a convenient lapse of memory?
 
Thinker said:
In message #75 of the thread ...

Are you a liar or did you have a convenient lapse of memory?

Neither. Rather, and with still other possibilities later coming to mind, I simply (and tackily) "thought out loud" (for the purpose of intimidation) while pondering an actual question present within my own mind ...

... something like, "Why does Thinker act likes he does in discussions with me?" ...

... and I have yet to draw any actual conclusion (and do not intend to do so) as would be required in order to make an accusation.
 
leejosepho said:
Neither. Rather, and with still other possibilities later coming to mind, I simply (and tackily) "thought out loud" (for the purpose of intimidation) while pondering an actual question present within my own mind ...

... something like, "Why does Thinker act likes he does in discussions with me?" ...

... and I have yet to draw any actual conclusion (and do not intend to do so) as would be required in order to make an accusation.

You, sir, are a troll.
 
dthmstr254 said:
eeehhh, i am learning to be a lawyer major and ministry minor, what in the world is quantum singularity inversion.
all i know about most evolutionists is that they are naturalists, meaning that they believe in what they see, which means matter. we have already established that matter has a beginning and an end.

False, because of the following reasons:
- Time has no ending, so I, as an atheist assume it has no beginning.
- "Every action causes a reaction", hence how can there be a first?
- You have no single proof that matter is not infinite. It is logical to assume that both place and time are infinitely divisible. Our universe might as well be a giant particle within another.

Something came out of nothing? No, it never came, as it will never leave.

However, some scientists believe in the quantum fluctuation theory. Recently I read another denies it, because our universe does not display any characterists of being caused by quantum fluctuation.

dthmstr254 said:
we have already established that matter has a beginning and an end.

Scientists keep finding smaller particles. THe most recent example of this is the "microtalenton", instead of the previous "neutrono", which was believed to be the smallest.
 
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