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Devout Hillary Supporters[W:634]

justlogic

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I have talked to a lot of people about the election. Now that it is Trump vs Hillary, most of the Burnie people I know are jumping on the hillary bandwagon to stop trump, and most of the cruz people I know are reluctantly supporting trump over hillary.

But those reluctant voters aren't the ones I want to talk about. I want to talk about the genuine, full on, Hillary Clinton Supporters.

I understand that you like some of her policies. But what makes her better than any other democrat just a bit left of the party platform?

I see hillary Clinton as the one active political figure in our country today that truly embodies the political corruption that caused the trump phenomenon to become a thing. I see her as an exaggerated archetype of a corrupt politician you would find on a tv show, but just in real life. I think it is almost comical the kinds of things she can get away with.

So I have some questions for the enthusiastic hillary supporter.

Do you think we need to change the Washington status quo?
Do you think she will she change the Washington status quo?
Do you think she is trustworthy?
What specifically has she achieved (any office she has held, primarily attributed to her) that has improved our country?
Do you think that she is corrupt?
Do you believe that she is honestly not representing the "big banks on wall street" when she receives large donations from them?
Given a consistent record of inconsistent views, do you believe she will keep to the platform she is campaigning on when elected?
Is her gender part of the reason you support her?
Do you find any hypocrisy in her platform, actions, or words?



I don't mean any disrespect, I honestly just don't understand why some high information voters would enthusiastically support her.
 

FieldTheorist

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

I see hillary Clinton as the one active political figure in our country today that truly embodies the political corruption that caused the trump phenomenon to become a thing.

This is why I'll likely be voting Green in November. I only expect the "Trump phenomena" to get even more out of hand, even more crazy under Hillary. Just wait who pops out --and then rides the immense and increased wave of dissatisfaction-- in 2020.
 
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bubbabgone

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

I have talked to a lot of people about the election. Now that it is Trump vs Hillary, most of the Burnie people I know are jumping on the hillary bandwagon to stop trump, and most of the cruz people I know are reluctantly supporting trump over hillary.

But those reluctant voters aren't the ones I want to talk about. I want to talk about the genuine, full on, Hillary Clinton Supporters.

I understand that you like some of her policies. But what makes her better than any other democrat just a bit left of the party platform?

I see hillary Clinton as the one active political figure in our country today that truly embodies the political corruption that caused the trump phenomenon to become a thing. I see her as an exaggerated archetype of a corrupt politician you would find on a tv show, but just in real life. I think it is almost comical the kinds of things she can get away with.

So I have some questions for the enthusiastic hillary supporter.

Do you think we need to change the Washington status quo?
Do you think she will she change the Washington status quo?
Do you think she is trustworthy?
What specifically has she achieved (any office she has held, primarily attributed to her) that has improved our country?
Do you think that she is corrupt?
Do you believe that she is honestly not representing the "big banks on wall street" when she receives large donations from them?
Given a consistent record of inconsistent views, do you believe she will keep to the platform she is campaigning on when elected?
Is her gender part of the reason you support her?
Do you find any hypocrisy in her platform, actions, or words?



I don't mean any disrespect, I honestly just don't understand why some high information voters would enthusiastically support her.

hillary trump debate.jpg
 

1751Texan

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

No candidate nor President has ever been or ever will ever be perfect.

For me, being a progressive means, I expect a Democrat President to move the nation forward on social and civil issues.

Most of us can agree to much of what is wrong with the system, but we never seem to come together to solve the problems we agree need fixing.

Retired Sen Tom Coburn famously put out his list of outrageous pork barrel boondoggles. Very few of those issues were ever addressed. These were the kind of issues we as Americans oppose...not just as Democrats or Republicans.

Republicans did not address them...and Democrats did not. ...and "We the People" did not put pressure on our Reps to either. If we can not get together to solve the easy, the hard problems will never be addressed. We, as a nation, rise to the level of our competency.

We as a nation have done some really remarkable feats. ...not just any of late.

Who knows what kinda President HRC will be. I just hope we don't lose the gains already won.
 
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iguanaman

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

I have talked to a lot of people about the election. Now that it is Trump vs Hillary, most of the Burnie people I know are jumping on the hillary bandwagon to stop trump, and most of the cruz people I know are reluctantly supporting trump over hillary.

But those reluctant voters aren't the ones I want to talk about. I want to talk about the genuine, full on, Hillary Clinton Supporters.

I understand that you like some of her policies. But what makes her better than any other democrat just a bit left of the party platform?

I see hillary Clinton as the one active political figure in our country today that truly embodies the political corruption that caused the trump phenomenon to become a thing. I see her as an exaggerated archetype of a corrupt politician you would find on a tv show, but just in real life. I think it is almost comical the kinds of things she can get away with.

So I have some questions for the enthusiastic hillary supporter.

Do you think we need to change the Washington status quo?
Do you think she will she change the Washington status quo?
Do you think she is trustworthy?
What specifically has she achieved (any office she has held, primarily attributed to her) that has improved our country?
Do you think that she is corrupt?
Do you believe that she is honestly not representing the "big banks on wall street" when she receives large donations from them?
Given a consistent record of inconsistent views, do you believe she will keep to the platform she is campaigning on when elected?
Is her gender part of the reason you support her?
Do you find any hypocrisy in her platform, actions, or words?



I don't mean any disrespect, I honestly just don't understand why some high information voters would enthusiastically support her.

Hillary is immensely qualified and shares my views on most issues. I do admit that the 30 year GOP vendetta against her makes her more appealing to me and I have seen no real reason not to "trust her". I'm also not a fool who thinks a huge upset of the "status quo" would benefit me and am more than satisfied with continued progress along the Progressive line. Those that think that Trump would do things that benefit them would be sadly disappointed if he had a chance of winning.
 
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Glen Contrarian

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

So I have some questions for the enthusiastic hillary supporter.

I was a Washington alternate state delegate for her in 2008. These are my answers:

Do you think we need to change the Washington status quo?

A resounding defeat of the GOP - whether part of the establishment or not. I used to be a Republican - I happily voted for Reagan and Bush 41...but I saw even then what was happening to the GOP - I don't think many therein really grasp how the trifecta of Nixon's Southern Strategy, the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine, and the rise of the Religious Right all combined to increase racial divisiveness, allowed people to hear only the side of the story they already wanted to hear, and allowed whacked-out televangelists to become power brokers within the GOP to the point where it's almost a sin to even negotiate with a liberal, much less give any serious thought to liberal proposals.

Do you think she will she change the Washington status quo?

Not really - but in political terms, she's the most battle-tested candidate we've seen in at least a generation. She will not be nearly so naive as Obama was for his first two years in office. She knows how to fight for what she stands for - she's taken everything the Right has thrown at her...and she's still standing.

Do you think she is trustworthy?

Depends on how one defines "trustworthy". Will she always tell the truth? I hope not - I would never want a president so naive as to think that he could always tell the truth about what's going on behind the scenes. My own definition of "trustworthy" in this contest is, "will she do her level best for the benefit of America and the American people?"...and I believe that yes, she will indeed do so. You might disagree, but the great majority of presidents, good and bad - and even including Dubya - thought they were doing right by the American people. The only problem was, some of them didn't realize that their version of "right"...wasn't right at all.

What specifically has she achieved (any office she has held, primarily attributed to her) that has improved our country?

The fact that you feel the need to ask this question implies much about your own mindset...especially since all one has to do is Google "What has Hillary done?"

Do you think that she is corrupt?

No more than most other senators. It's a naive person indeed who supposes that with all the power of Wall Street, Big Pharma, Big Oil, and all the other denizens of Big Business, that any given senator could resist all corruption. And please don't try to claim that a billionaire like Trump can stay above corruption because of his billions, seeing as how he has been bailed out twice by a Saudi prince.

Do you believe that she is honestly not representing the "big banks on wall street" when she receives large donations from them?

See the above answer.
 

Glen Contrarian

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

Given a consistent record of inconsistent views, do you believe she will keep to the platform she is campaigning on when elected?

"Consistent record of inconsistent views"? Again, your question implies something other than objectivity - you are already convinced (wrongly, btw) that she has been inconsistent, and are asking your question with that premise as a given. FYI, it would be difficult to find a major politician in the past generation - including Reagan, both Bushes, her husband, and Obama - who has been more consistent in his or her views. YES, she will have changed some positions as all politicians must, but compared to the flip-flops of, say, Donald Trump, she's been a veritable icon of consistency.

Is her gender part of the reason you support her?

No.

Do you find any hypocrisy in her platform, actions, or words?

Not much. You have to ask yourself, do you really want a president who won't - or can't - change his or her mind about something? Do you really? Hillary is a politician through and through - and as one of our nation's most experienced diplomats (yes, she IS, regardless of what you may personally want to think), she knows that she must adjust her message or change the terms of the negotiations in order to make things happen. If you'll think about it, the Founding Fathers designed our government to where deals HAD to be made in order to get legislation passed. If a politician refuses to do what's necessary to negotiate with the other side (which would include agreeing with them on things one would never agree on), then that politician is not following the tradition set forth by our Founding Fathers.

To put it another way, Hillary is a master of realpolitik. She supports what is necessary, what is practical, what is pragmatic. That's how I know she'll get things done. To give Trump a modicum of credit, he would understand the need for realpolitik - but when it comes to nationwide politics and diplomacy between nations, he's a babe in the woods. But Cruz would have been even worse than Trump, because he is an idealist. "Realpolitik" is anathema to him...and that's why he's so disliked by his peers in the Senate.

I don't mean any disrespect, I honestly just don't understand why some high information voters would enthusiastically support her.

Likewise, I simply don't understand how any high-information voter could possibly support Trump, especially given my disgust for racists, misogynists, and xenophobes. But then, there's no accounting for taste.
 

Chomsky

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

I was a Washington alternate state delegate for her in 2008. These are my answers:



A resounding defeat of the GOP - whether part of the establishment or not. I used to be a Republican - I happily voted for Reagan and Bush 41...but I saw even then what was happening to the GOP - I don't think many therein really grasp how the trifecta of Nixon's Southern Strategy, the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine, and the rise of the Religious Right all combined to increase racial divisiveness, allowed people to hear only the side of the story they already wanted to hear, and allowed whacked-out televangelists to become power brokers within the GOP to the point where it's almost a sin to even negotiate with a liberal, much less give any serious thought to liberal proposals.



Not really - but in political terms, she's the most battle-tested candidate we've seen in at least a generation. She will not be nearly so naive as Obama was for his first two years in office. She knows how to fight for what she stands for - she's taken everything the Right has thrown at her...and she's still standing.

<snip>
To that I bolded:

Amen, brother! :thumbs:
 

Threegoofs

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

I hear a lot about how horrible and corrupt Hillary is, but I never see actual complaints.

Except "Benghazi!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

Orly?

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

I hear a lot about how horrible and corrupt Hillary is, but I never see actual complaints.

Except "Benghazi!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Here they are: Hillary’s 22 biggest scandals ever
From Whitewater to Benghazi: A Primer on Bill and Hillary Clinton Scandals - The Atlantic
The Hillary Clinton Lies List – conservativeamerican.org
The problems plaguing Hillary Clinton’s 2016 presidential bid

Their are hundreds..


Edit: And I bet we find out more from the Trumpster soon enough ;)
 

TurtleDude

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters


Most people aren't willing to say-Hey my candidate is a lying bitch but her policies will be better for me than her opponent. they pretend that she is some sort of joan of arc or on the other side, that Trump isn't part of the washington corrupt game. Its a joke. If you are supporting Hilary and claim she's a good person or an honest politician, you are really out to lunch for the most part. same with those who think Trump is some sort of outsider untarnished by the big charade that is our political system. Hilary is perhaps the most disgusting person I have seen run in a major party in my lifetime-I was too young to really contemplate LBJ though.
 

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters


Well, let's see. Your first list is a WND article that basically references WND 'investigations'. I think we can all agree that's a complete joke.

The second is reasonable. It lists :

email servers, (stupid, but it doesn't look like there were any adverse consequences or that it was unprecedented among cabinet secretaries). We'll see what the full investigation turns up. But I'm fairly sure she wasn't darting off national security secrets on nonsecure channels.

Benghazi. I think multiple congressional investigations and years of work have determined that there's pretty much bupkis there.

Wall Street Speeches/Clinton Foundation: the usual insider conflict of interest the entire government seems to be based upon, from every congressman on up.


And given the alternative, I'd expect Trump to regularly let slip classified info, because the guy is a loose cannon. I'd also expect him to actively work on padding his and his kids personal fortunes 24/7 while in office. That's the kind of guy he clearly is.
 

Kobie

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

I hear a lot about how horrible and corrupt Hillary is, but I never see actual complaints.

Except "Benghazi!!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

She killed Vince Foster!!!1
 

yankintx

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

I have talked to a lot of people about the election. Now that it is Trump vs Hillary, most of the Burnie people I know are jumping on the hillary bandwagon to stop trump, and most of the cruz people I know are reluctantly supporting trump over hillary.

But those reluctant voters aren't the ones I want to talk about. I want to talk about the genuine, full on, Hillary Clinton Supporters.

I understand that you like some of her policies. But what makes her better than any other democrat just a bit left of the party platform?

I see hillary Clinton as the one active political figure in our country today that truly embodies the political corruption that caused the trump phenomenon to become a thing. I see her as an exaggerated archetype of a corrupt politician you would find on a tv show, but just in real life. I think it is almost comical the kinds of things she can get away with.

So I have some questions for the enthusiastic hillary supporter.

Do you think we need to change the Washington status quo?
Do you think she will she change the Washington status quo?
Do you think she is trustworthy?
What specifically has she achieved (any office she has held, primarily attributed to her) that has improved our country?
Do you think that she is corrupt?
Do you believe that she is honestly not representing the "big banks on wall street" when she receives large donations from them?
Given a consistent record of inconsistent views, do you believe she will keep to the platform she is campaigning on when elected?
Is her gender part of the reason you support her?
Do you find any hypocrisy in her platform, actions, or words?



I don't mean any disrespect, I honestly just don't understand why some high information voters would enthusiastically support her.

It's either that, or the Orange baboon

I don't mean no disrespect

Not a Hillary supporter but, the exact same questions can be asked of the Orange one.
 
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Orly?

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

that Trump isn't part of the washington corrupt game. Its a joke.
same with those who think Trump is some sort of outsider untarnished by the big charade that is our political system.

Trump is not part of the "Washington corrupt game", his business career he has played on the opposite side of the spectrum, trying to be succesful in business despite political corruption.

Trump is definitely an outsider, he is not a politician..

We disagree on these points.. Likely many more..
I assume that you are just fine with the establishment ruling elite as long as it is the conservative side.. Would I be wrong?
 

FieldTheorist

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

I used to be a Republican - I happily voted for Reagan and Bush 41...but I saw even then what was happening to the GOP - I don't think many therein really grasp how the trifecta of Nixon's Southern Strategy, the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine, and the rise of the Religious Right all combined to increase racial divisiveness, allowed people to hear only the side of the story they already wanted to hear, and allowed whacked-out televangelists to become power brokers within the GOP to the point where it's almost a sin to even negotiate with a liberal, much less give any serious thought to liberal proposals.

Well, by Reagan that strategy had already been set in stone for 12 years before Reagan, and although I agree that the repealing of the Fairness Doctrine wasn't a good thing, it would have in no way stopped the birth of corporate media (Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, all basic cable channels) with its corporate biases and shortcomings. However, yes, the combination of these things has been destructive for race relations, letting religiosity bleed into politics, and the advancement of the Far Right ideology.

A resounding defeat of the GOP - whether part of the establishment or not.

I think what you've said above is the key, defining distinction between the two major groups of the Democratic party (exemplified by the candidates who rose to the top). That being said, I simply don't agree with you on this point. I believed this firmly in early 2008, when I switched from a Libertarian to a Democrat and campaigned for Barrack Obama. And then I watched as my generation and other progressives promoted Barrack Obama against long odds to become the Democratic nominee, I campaigned and contributed to him to win the presidency in 2008, I voted for him and for the wholly Democratic congress, the crushing win he had over John McCain, the promotion of "good progressive" Democrats (including Hillary) into high-level positions, we switched the House and the Senate over to the Democrats with a nearly veto-proof majority. And in return, we got the weakest form of healthcare reform you could imagine, we got the weakest form regulations on Wall Street that could still be called regulations, and Wall Street got a huge, huge bailout. And I watched as a Democrat-controlled House and Senate fought against all of the things that the they allegedly stood for. My generations prospects got worse, the economic policies explicitly were written in a way that absolutely devastated the poor and middle-class, the entire country has slipped further and further into debt (individually, not nationally, the national debt is, as you probably know, more or less irrelevant) the only jobs that were created were jobs that created more underemployment and were underpaid, and so on and so on --and that's not even getting into foreign policy.

And all of the deregulating laws that created the financial collapse by either removing regulations or never creating them in the first place? All of the laws that set our fiscal and monetary policies policies? All of the laws that regulate the financial industry and corporations? All the laws that help the interest of workers, like trade deals and labor laws? For forty long years, the issues that lie in the interests of the middle-class and especially the poor all have been undermined whether there was a Democratic president in office with a Republican congress, and vice versa, whether there was a Republican in office with a Republican congress, and yes, whether there was a Democrat in office with a Democratic congress. If you were looking for a great defeat of Republicans, you couldn't have done much better than 2008, and we have the history of how that turned out. Needless to say, for me, the idea that "all that needs to happen is for the Republicans to lose big" was bombastically falsified.

(We can ask, "Well why is that?" and that's another long subject, but I think the highlights are: Corporate/Wall Street money in politics, the elitist bubble in Washington, and corporate media. So when you talk about Fairness Doctrine, the Southern Strategy, and so on, but I'd definitely add Buckley v Valeo to that list to things that went tits up in before Reagan hit the Oval Office.)
 

FieldTheorist

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

To put it another way, Hillary is a master of realpolitik. She supports what is necessary, what is practical, what is pragmatic. That's how I know she'll get things done.

I don't disagree with this, but I fail to see how it's a good thing. I think what you've described above would have a good case, if public policies and the allowed political dialogue on mainstream news wasn't actively losing ground to the Right despite the leftward shift of the American public opinion. But that is exactly what's happening, the public has moved to the left (if we look at Millennials alone, they're so far left it's staggering in comparison to what's talked about on corporate media), and yet what's "realpolitick" stays firmly on the side of being pro-corporate, pro-right-wing, pro-Wall Street, pro-Big Pharma, and so on. This pretty much tells you that so-called progressive/liberal politicians who adopt realpolitick will accomplish many things --they just won't be progressive or liberal things.

That's the system we have, and as near as I can tell, what "realpolitick" means is just compromising 95% of everything with moneyed interests to get 5% of change that will be contested and lost within a decade or two. We can say that we're doing very harmful things all for good reasons, but the reasons appear to me to be more thin than ever. All of the while, we're running out the clock on global warming, increasing income inequality to preposterous levels, and losing more and more of our economy/infrastructure every year. That's another way of saying we're running out the clock on the US.
 

Orly?

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

Not a Hillary supporter but, the exact same questions can be asked of the Orange one.

Great!!

Do you think we need to change the Washington status quo?
Absolutely..
Do you think she he will change the Washington status quo?
He already has!!
Puts the PC libtard whiners in their places on the regular.. Exposes corrupt media.. Exposes corrupt money in politics.. etc. etc.

Do you think she he is trustworthy?
Yes..
What specifically has she he achieved (any office she he has held, primarily attributed to her him) that has improved our country?
What is the difference between a dead raccoon and Donald Trump's hair? A dead raccoon doesn't have 7 billion ****ing dollars in the bank!!
In other words he obviously knows how to run a successful business. And don't even try that bankruptcy crap on me..

Do you think that she he is corrupt?
No!!
Do you believe that she he is honestly not representing the "big banks on wall street" when she he receives large donations from them?
Not applicable.. No..
Given a consistent record of inconsistent views, do you believe she he will keep to the platform she he is campaigning on when elected?
Yes, a lot of the things he says aren't perfect because he is unscripted and speaking from the heart. He says what he means but he just doesn't have an exact lock on how to express what he means perfectly as if it was written by a speech writer.
On some things what he says is a starting point for negotiation, like 35% tarrif/tax, but I believe he will build that WALL..

Is her his gender part of the reason you support her?
No..
Do you find any hypocrisy in her his platform, actions, or words?
No, he is giving up his easy way of doing things (making things in China) to benefit the people of America..
It will get more expensive for him too, but help the people..
 

Orly?

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

I think what you've said above is the key, defining distinction between the two major groups of the Democratic party (exemplified by the candidates who rose to the top). That being said, I simply don't agree with you on this point. I believed this firmly in early 2008, when I switched from a Libertarian to a Democrat and campaigned for Barrack Obama. And then I watched as my generation and other progressives promoted Barrack Obama against long odds to become the Democratic nominee, I campaigned and contributed to him to win the presidency in 2008, I voted for him and for the wholly Democratic congress, the crushing win he had over John McCain, the promotion of "good progressive" Democrats (including Hillary) into high-level positions, we switched the House and the Senate over to the Democrats with a nearly veto-proof majority. And in return, we got the weakest form of healthcare reform you could imagine, we got the weakest form regulations on Wall Street that could still be called regulations, and Wall Street got a huge, huge bailout. And I watched as a Democrat-controlled House and Senate fought against all of the things that the they allegedly stood for. My generations prospects got worse, the economic policies explicitly were written in a way that absolutely devastated the poor and middle-class, the entire country has slipped further and further into debt (individually, not nationally, the national debt is, as you probably know, more or less irrelevant) the only jobs that were created were jobs that created more underemployment and were underpaid, and so on and so on --and that's not even getting into foreign policy.

And all of the deregulating laws that created the financial collapse by either removing regulations or never creating them in the first place? All of the laws that set our fiscal and monetary policies policies? All of the laws that regulate the financial industry and corporations? All the laws that help the interest of workers, like trade deals and labor laws? For forty long years, the issues that lie in the interests of the middle-class and especially the poor all have been undermined whether there was a Democratic president in office with a Republican congress, and vice versa, whether there was a Republican in office with a Republican congress, and yes, whether there was a Democrat in office with a Democratic congress. If you were looking for a great defeat of Republicans, you couldn't have done much better than 2008, and we have the history of how that turned out. Needless to say, for me, the idea that "all that needs to happen is for the Republicans to lose big" was bombastically falsified.

(We can ask, "Well why is that?" and that's another long subject, but I think the highlights are: Corporate/Wall Street money in politics, the elitist bubble in Washington, and corporate media. So when you talk about Fairness Doctrine, the Southern Strategy, and so on, but I'd definitely add Buckley v Valeo to that list to things that went tits up in before Reagan hit the Oval Office.)

We agree on pretty much all of this, we just disagree on how to fix it..

You (sanders supporter correct?) - Take from the rich to give to the poor - socialism
Me (Trump) - We don't have to take from the rich directly, maybe change some economic rules, just get jobs back for the middle class so they can build themselves back up.
 

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

I have talked to a lot of people about the election. Now that it is Trump vs Hillary, most of the Burnie people I know are jumping on the hillary bandwagon to stop trump, and most of the cruz people I know are reluctantly supporting trump over hillary.

But those reluctant voters aren't the ones I want to talk about. I want to talk about the genuine, full on, Hillary Clinton Supporters.

I understand that you like some of her policies. But what makes her better than any other democrat just a bit left of the party platform?

I see hillary Clinton as the one active political figure in our country today that truly embodies the political corruption that caused the trump phenomenon to become a thing. I see her as an exaggerated archetype of a corrupt politician you would find on a tv show, but just in real life. I think it is almost comical the kinds of things she can get away with.

So I have some questions for the enthusiastic hillary supporter.

Do you think we need to change the Washington status quo?
Do you think she will she change the Washington status quo?
Do you think she is trustworthy?
What specifically has she achieved (any office she has held, primarily attributed to her) that has improved our country?
Do you think that she is corrupt?
Do you believe that she is honestly not representing the "big banks on wall street" when she receives large donations from them?
Given a consistent record of inconsistent views, do you believe she will keep to the platform she is campaigning on when elected?
Is her gender part of the reason you support her?
Do you find any hypocrisy in her platform, actions, or words?



I don't mean any disrespect, I honestly just don't understand why some high information voters would enthusiastically support her.

The way she stood up the the GOP hit squad during the congressional hearings impressed me. Kept her cool and conveyed intelligent responses even though the only purpose of the hearing was "to get her". Gowdy even made her look sympathetic. That is how the GOP governs, talk about corrupt. I'll take Hillary over the egomaniac and government shut down loons.
 

PIPEWRENCH

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters


Everyone is aware of her record for lying and corruption. She supports rewarding criminals while millions legally trying to enter this country are turned away. Birds of a feather will stand with her.
 

FieldTheorist

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

You (sanders supporter correct?)

That's correct.

[Sanders would] take from the rich to give to the poor - socialism
Me (Trump) - We don't have to take from the rich directly, maybe change some economic rules, just get jobs back for the middle class so they can build themselves back up.

That's a common definition of socialism, but it's pretty myopic and inaccurate if you talk to genuine socialists (i.e. libertarian socialists). Socialism is actually much more about doing the latter than the former. It does the former only when it helps the latter. Why I don't support Trump, despite fundamentally agreeing with him that the problem is the system and the problem won't disappear until the system does, is that it matters how you change the system.

Trump supporters know they are getting the shafted, they just don't seem to understand the details of how and why. They seem to confuse bluster and bloviation about how to "Make America Great Again" without actually knowing why America started having serious problems and thus what's needed to put it not merely back on track, but towards a much brighter future. I expect Trump to now be loaded up with debt/favors to Republican establishment donors, and whatever talk he gave about looking out for the average American will go right out the window.


But even beyond that, changing around a few trade deals and a tweaking a couple of outstanding issues isn't going to repair the economy. The rich and influential have rewritten the rules monstrously in their favor, and they have been systematically extracting wealth from the poor and the middle-class for over 4 decades now. They're done this by buying off politicians to do their bidding, they've done it by decreasing taxes on the rich, they've done it by destroyed labor movements and busting unions up, and, yes, by making awful trade deals that are quite openly at the expense of skilled workers and factory workers. So, as a point of fact, you need to get money out of politics, and then you need to re-extract the great host of the ill-sought wealth that the .1% extracted from the poor and middle-class and place it back into workers hands. The best way to do this is through social programs (Public education, national jobs creation programs, rebuilding our infrastructure, debt forgiveness, universal healthcare, universal college, subsidies for capital gains, etc).


As for socialism proper, that involves trying to give workers more control over their destinies, and let large corporations/industries be democratically run by the skilled laborers (much like we run our country), but that's a long conversation that is far out of the current political discussion. Right now, I'm concerned with letting skilled workers, people who have been irreparably harmed by the system, and more generally the middle-class and poor get the fair pay they are owed for their work.
 

Exquisitor

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters


Everyone is aware of her record for lying and corruption. She supports rewarding criminals while millions legally trying to enter this country are turned away. Birds of a feather will stand with her.

Nonsense this is all a very little amount of dirt. The Hillary Clinton I know is out shaking people's hands and meeting people and is going to be fighting for us (except the unborn of course.) Trump I don't know, his business dirt leads me to believe I am not safer from poisoning by corporate greed with him and that he should not win just like the Millionaire. This is the most esthetic story. Maybe Trump would rise to the Presidency and not become corrupt.
 
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Orly?

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

Why I don't support Trump, despite fundamentally agreeing with him that the problem is the system and the problem won't disappear until the system does, is that it matters how you change the system.

Trump is also the disappearance of the system, or at the very least shaking it up. He has already done a lot to expose corruption and I don't expect that to change..

I expect Trump to now be loaded up with debt/favors to Republican establishment donors, and whatever talk he gave about looking out for the average American will go right out the window.

I do not..
I see what Trump is doing as similar to what Carnegie and Rockefeller did with their fortunes toward the ends of their lives. But instead of just spending the money on things to help the people, Trump wants to effect change in "the system" to help the people.





The rich and influential have rewritten the rules monstrously in their favor, and they have been systematically extracting wealth from the poor and the middle-class for over 4 decades now. They're done this by buying off politicians to do their bidding, they've done it by decreasing taxes on the rich, they've done it by destroyed labor movements and busting unions up, and, yes, by making awful trade deals that are quite openly at the expense of skilled workers and factory workers. So, as a point of fact, you need to get money out of politics, and then you need to re-extract the great host of the ill-sought wealth that the .1% extracted from the poor and middle-class and place it back into workers hands.

I'm glad you changed this from "the right" to "The rich and influential" because the left has been bought just as effectively as the right, Hillary..

We can "re-extract the great host of the ill-sought wealth that the .1% extracted from the poor and middle-class" through capitalistic measures by reversing the corruption of bought politicians that I see as has been effectively reverse socialism for the rich, slanting the rules toward the rich's favor..

The best way to do this is through social programs (Public education, national jobs creation programs, rebuilding our infrastructure, debt forgiveness, universal healthcare, universal college, subsidies for capital gains, etc).

As for socialism proper, that involves trying to give workers more control over their destinies, and let large corporations/industries be democratically run by the skilled laborers (much like we run our country), but that's a long conversation that is far out of the current political discussion. Right now, I'm concerned with letting skilled workers, people who have been irreparably harmed by the system, and more generally the middle-class and poor get the fair pay they are owed for their work.

So am I, but, I think we can still take an "America first" capitalist approach to this by putting our middle class and poor people ahead of maximum corporate profits.

You are right, I don't know how, but I think that trump has the best interest of the American people at heart in what he is doing and will do his best for us as opposed to just another slimy politician for sale to the highers bidder.
 

iguanaman

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Re: Devout Hillary Supporters

Trump is also the disappearance of the system, or at the very least shaking it up. He has already done a lot to expose corruption and I don't expect that to change..



I do not..
I see what Trump is doing as similar to what Carnegie and Rockefeller did with their fortunes toward the ends of their lives. But instead of just spending the money on things to help the people, Trump wants to effect change in "the system" to help the people.







I'm glad you changed this from "the right" to "The rich and influential" because the left has been bought just as effectively as the right, Hillary..

We can "re-extract the great host of the ill-sought wealth that the .1% extracted from the poor and middle-class" through capitalistic measures by reversing the corruption of bought politicians that I see as has been effectively reverse socialism for the rich, slanting the rules toward the rich's favor..



So am I, but, I think we can still take an "America first" capitalist approach to this by putting our middle class and poor people ahead of maximum corporate profits.

You are right, I don't know how, but I think that trump has the best interest of the American people at heart in what he is doing and will do his best for us as opposed to just another slimy politician for sale to the highers bidder.

It is hilarious that you would think a billionaire would change the rules benefiting billionaires. Does "the Donald"strike you as a masochist type of guy? Someone who will punish himself and his family for your benefit? Quite the contrary I assure you. When he suckered you into voting for him, you will give him free license to screw you...and he will.
From your post it is obvious that you really want Sanders and he will be on stage with Hillary at a rally near you. You should go and listen.
 
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