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Detroit EFM insults city and retirees

Why? You don't expect an obummer hand out to make their day? Really? Here is my projection:

1) investors will get hosed - completely - possibly even 100% hosed out of every dollar they invested in to the city via bonds and such.

2) public employee union phat pensions will be made whole and full with a certain federal stimuli or something to make sure they don't lose a dime

3) while rioting the public employees in retirement "might" suffer a tad degradation in their LIFE TIME free health insurance program, but it'll still be there for them

4) the city will plow ahead without having to pay back those who gave it money and be a shinny star for every other liberal city in plight to follow

Hope you're wrong but I'm betting you're mostly right!:cry:
 
Another good read: The thistle- www.mit.edu. volume 13, Number 2: Sept/Oct. 2000

Although the proponents of neoliberalism extol the virtues of free markets, free trade, private enterprise and consumer choice, the effects of neoliberal policies is quite the opposite. In fact, these policies typically result in very protectionist markets dominated by a few trans-national corporations. Many sectors of the economy - ranging from food processing and distribution to the corporate media to aviation - are oligopolies and can be characterized as highly centralized command economies that are only a shade more competitive than the economy of the former Soviet Union. A major theme of neoliberal policies is deregulation and the removal of government interference in the economy. Consistently, such policies are applied in a one sided way, and always in a manner that benefits large trans-national corporations, the most influential entities in policy making. Hence, within neoliberalism as it is actually applied, capital is allowed to roam the world freely with very few restrictions, yet workers are to remain trapped within the borders of their countries. This serves trans-national corporations well, though for some, not well enough. According to Jack Welsh, CEO of GE, he and GE’s shareholders would be best served if factories were on barges so that when workers demand higher wages and better working conditions, the barges could easily be moved to a country with more compliant workers. Another component of neoliberalism is the dismantling of the welfare state. Again, in practice, this policy is applied to the majority of the population, who have to accept cut backs in unemployment benefits and health care, while large corporations continue to receive massive subsidies and tax breaks.

The effects of neoliberal policies on people everywhere has been devastating. During the last two to three decades, wealth disparity has increased many fold within countries as well as between countries. In the US, inflation adjusted median wages are lower today than they were in 1973 (when median wages reached their peak) while the wealth of the top 1% of society has soared. One out of every five children in the US lives in a state of poverty characterized by continual hunger, insecurity and lack of adequate health care. This, after almost ten years of a record breaking economic boom. For the poorest people in the world, the situation has become even more desperate. John Gershman and Alec Irwin state in “Dying for growth”:

The IMF and the WORLD BANK: Puppets of the Neoliberal Onslaught
 
unions, the bogeyman of the reich wing

At least ONE of their bogeymen. With Detroit they get the UnHoly Trinity of Unions - African Americans - Democrats. its like Christmas in summertime for them.

I love it when the freedom lovers and defenders of rights couch their comments that the people of Detroit just can't be trusted with self government.
 
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I'm very glad to let detroit manage its failure. I hope and pray they don't expect us to manage it for them, for they are not deserving of my contribution (to the govt). They have managed it poorly and are diserving to that scorn. Its fun watching the left squirm and try so hard to blame union haters, "reich" and now race. America knows that the liberals failed - they see the liberals failing at the national level, they see it in leftist states (CA), and in the leftist controlled cities - Chicago - is probably next but they'll wait to make sure they can get a phat bama hand out I'm sure.


At least ONE of their bogeymen. With Detroit they get the UnHoly Trinity of Unions - African Americans - Democrats. its like Christmas in summertime for them.

I love it when the freedom lovers and defenders of rights couch their comments that the people of Detroit just can't be trusted with self government.
 
Blaming free trade, economic choice, and private enterprise, for Detroit's failure? What planet are you people from?
 
Why? You don't expect an obummer hand out to make their day? Really? Here is my projection:

1) investors will get hosed - completely - possibly even 100% hosed out of every dollar they invested in to the city via bonds and such.

2) public employee union phat pensions will be made whole and full with a certain federal stimuli or something to make sure they don't lose a dime

3) while rioting the public employees in retirement "might" suffer a tad degradation in their LIFE TIME free health insurance program, but it'll still be there for them

4) the city will plow ahead without having to pay back those who gave it money and be a shinny star for every other liberal city in plight to follow

No, Orr wanted to take declare bankruptcy so he could take the pension money and invest it in the city.
 
fully 30% of the goods produced to win world war two was manufactured in detroit
i believe that ramping up of production and workers during the 40's is why detroit experienced population declines beginning in the 50's
our nation's golden age
we were the only industrial nation without a destroyed infrastructure
"made in the USA" caused the product bearing that legend to be prized, both at home and abroad
but since that time, when there was no real international competition, the rest of the industrialized world re-tooled
they became competitive, and competitors
their markets, which had become our markets, returned to buying domestic made goods
so, our global market began to shrink
and instead of re-investing infrastructure, to remain dominant, we used those monies as dividends to the share holders
and after the first oil embargo, the seeds of detroit's ultimate decline were sown
reliable, cheap, small cars, something detroit honchos insisted were not wanted by American drivers, were provided by japan, eroding detroit's share of our domestic market
while it is now 27 years old, The Reckoning remains the most incisive account of what went wrong with detroit in particular and the USA in general.
When Nissan Had a Better Idea
and the stark reality is detroit is now bankrupt. comparative advantage is much to blame. but a large degree of blame is due to the executives, in the big three, in the unions, and in the local government, who promised what they could not pay in the future for labor needed today
and there is also the culture of the resident community. here is a VERY telling stat: only 7 percent of the eighth graders are grade-level proficient or better in reading Only 7% of Detroit Public-School 8th Graders Proficient in Reading | CNS News
detroit has become a city where education is not valued; probably because of its history of being a place where those without a significant education could thrive
but we are now in the information age. and much of detroit is not
now back to its legacy of building what the government required, back when it was essential to our nation's survival
if a manufacturer/service provider located and operated from detroit produces what it proposes to sell to the federal sector, that bidder should have its bid evaluated at 10% less than all other non-detroit bidders. for instance, detroit corp bids $1 million. for purposes of evaluating its bid with other bidders, that price will be shown to be $900,000 [the company would still be awarded a $1 million contract, the discount is only for purposes of bid competition]. if it wins the bid, and such advantage should gain many won bids, contractors will soon flock to detroit to set up shop. not only would they pay local taxes, and hire local employees (where qualified), they will bring a motivation to elevate the skill set of the local work force, so that detroit could once again become both competitive and solvent

I like your idea - it's a positive way of looking at the future for Detroit rather than just all the recriminations and handwringing. Maybe if Obama and the feds want to continue pushing green energy programs, they could demand that any company getting a federal energy grant/subsidy/government contract, locate in depressed economies like that of Detroit and other rust belt cities instead of California.
 
As opposed to my tax dollar (from CA) being invested in the city? Why not?

Why would you think he would take your money in CA? He has no right to take money that is suppose to be used toward pensions to rebuild the city. There is nothing right about it.
 
Why would you think he would take your money in CA? He has no right to take money that is suppose to be used toward pensions to rebuild the city. There is nothing right about it.

As I understand it, it is not a matter of taking money that exists in pension plans and redistributing it to city building. It's a matter of eliminating the future contributions of the city into the various pension plans as well as any shortfalls that are outstanding. As far as pensions go, it's likely that the assets of the pension plans will accrue to the vested members of each plan and their pensions will be reduced accordingly, based on what those assets can generate, and those who aren't vested will likely lose out or get pennies back on the dollars they've contributed.
 
I can't think of a single other large city in North America that has seen a decline in population to this extent over 60 years and has done virtually nothing to address the exodus or try to bring people back. I know here, in Toronto, if we don't have a large increase in population people start panicking and if the tax base isn't always increasing and new businesses coming in people at the city are working hard to develop plans of action and incentives for business etc. and they make sure the city keeps clean and well maintained and if graffiti starts up somewhere, it's whitewashed down unless the city has approved it as an art/cultural project.

If the powers that be let a city rot the people will leave and those who remain will help accelerate the rot. Detroit is a city that succomed to neglect and only a strong leader, ignoring the cries of those tugging at his apron strings, will be able to pull it out and start it back on the road to recovery and it will take decades of hard work.

Toronto (I've been there) is much better originally planned. Detroit was basically a company town belonging to GM. They spread their manufacturing all over with poor original planning. Toronto is a much more normal city with a diversity of employment.

Regrettably, GM was complacent and manufactured ugly, inefficient automobiles. As competition arrived from Japan and Germany, the company made poor decisions. So, as business declined ad automation increased, huge parts of Detroit were neglected and people moved away.

I live in a town that has the same vulnerability. Were gambling made unlawful, you would have Scorpions wandering through the abandoned hallways of the 200,000 rooms we rent out every night. So, but for the grace of the angels etc.

The point is many factors damaged Detroit. Not just incompetent officials, although they surely helped....

Go Toronto (too cold though...).
 
I like your idea - it's a positive way of looking at the future for Detroit rather than just all the recriminations and handwringing. Maybe if Obama and the feds want to continue pushing green energy programs, they could demand that any company getting a federal energy grant/subsidy/government contract, locate in depressed economies like that of Detroit and other rust belt cities instead of California.

I think that is part of the initiative:
The Motor City has finally stalled. After years of socioeconomic decline since its auto industry collapsed in the 2000s, Detroit declared bankruptcy last week, becoming the largest American city ever to do so. Could an ambitious, environmentally friendly scheme to repurpose Detroit's crumbling infrastructure be the city's salvation?

In the past decade, Detroit has become an emblem of urban decay. More than a third of its buildings are abandoned, nearly 40 per cent of the population lives in poverty and the infrastructure is in tatters: reportedly, 40 per cent of its street lights don't work.

This is where a long-term plan called the Detroit Future City (DFC) framework, announced by a study group in January, could help. Its aim is to regenerate the city over the next two decades by downsizing Detroit's infrastructure – tailored to its 2 million residents in the 1950s – to fit its current population of 700,000.

To this end, the DFC proposes that the city take some unusual steps – no, nothing to do with RoboCop. It proposes converting the city's 5200 hectares of abandoned space into ecological sanctuaries and urban farms. Hundreds of small farming and gardening initiatives have already sprung up in recent years, bolstered by private investment and grants.

Other initiatives include building "blue infrastructure," which would convert unused streets into conduits to collect rainwater for irrigation and relieve the pressure on Detroit's sewer system, and new regulations to increase energy efficiency across the city.

But with the city saddled with debts estimated at $18 billion, will these plans ever take off? They will take several years to initiate, so the city's bankruptcy filing should not slow them much, says urban law expert John Mogk of Wayne State University in Detroit, who was not involved in the DFC report. Working out deals with creditors should take two to three years, after which Detroit should be in a better position to start looking to the future. Furthermore, depending on what agreements are struck, Detroit should be able to devote more of its revenue to the city itself rather than continuing to spend 40 per cent of it paying off debts and pensions.


Forget RoboCop - Detroit to turn green to regenerate - environment - 23 July 2013 - New Scientist
 
Toronto (I've been there) is much better originally planned. Detroit was basically a company town belonging to GM. They spread their manufacturing all over with poor original planning. Toronto is a much more normal city with a diversity of employment.

Regrettably, GM was complacent and manufactured ugly, inefficient automobiles. As competition arrived from Japan and Germany, the company made poor decisions. So, as business declined ad automation increased, huge parts of Detroit were neglected and people moved away.

I live in a town that has the same vulnerability. Were gambling made unlawful, you would have Scorpions wandering through the abandoned hallways of the 200,000 rooms we rent out every night. So, but for the grace of the angels etc.

The point is many factors damaged Detroit. Not just incompetent officials, although they surely helped....

Go Toronto (too cold though...).

You're right, of course, and the issues and solutions are not simple ones. I look at Detroit's sister city across the Detroit river in Windsor, Ontario - not nearly as large a city, but once the Canadian equivalent of Detroit as a motor city, as well as other cities here like Oshawa, Ontario, another one reliant on the auto trade. Windsor, as an example, with the help of the provincial and federal governments, has done a pretty good job of attracting new business and creating tools and incentives to get new small business investment. For example, they've offered a plan that rebates business property taxes from the city for the first 10 years of a new business locating in Windsor. They've diversified their economy much more to counteract the loss in the auto sector. And Windsor plays on it's proximaty to American markets with the largest transfer of goods travelling back and forth across the Detroit river daily.

What I'm trying to get at with this is that the city of Windsor has been proactive in diversifying and moving itself to the new economic realities it faces. Windsor still has the highest unemployment rate of any major city in Canada at 9.4% but it's manageable and there's hope for better times in the future and it's because the powers that be in Windsor, in Ontario, and in Canada didn't and don't want to see a city die.
 
As I understand it, it is not a matter of taking money that exists in pension plans and redistributing it to city building. It's a matter of eliminating the future contributions of the city into the various pension plans as well as any shortfalls that are outstanding. As far as pensions go, it's likely that the assets of the pension plans will accrue to the vested members of each plan and their pensions will be reduced accordingly, based on what those assets can generate, and those who aren't vested will likely lose out or get pennies back on the dollars they've contributed.

In a letter, he admitted that he wanted to use a big sum of cash to restructure the city, which the creditors liked. In order to do that, he would need to steer Detroit into bankruptcy, cutting pensions and selling city assets.
 
In a letter, he admitted that he wanted to use a big sum of cash to restructure the city, which the creditors liked. In order to do that, he would need to steer Detroit into bankruptcy, cutting pensions and selling city assets.

I could be wrong, but I believe that refers to the probability that under bankruptcy, the city's contracts with various union groups would be voided and pension obligations under those contracts would cease making that money available to help restructure the city. I don't believe that the city manages the various pension plans - here in Canada, that wouldn't be legal - so there would be no ability to raid the pension plan assets and they wouldn't be subject to the bankruptcy proceedings.
 
You're right, of course, and the issues and solutions are not simple ones. I look at Detroit's sister city across the Detroit river in Windsor, Ontario - not nearly as large a city, but once the Canadian equivalent of Detroit as a motor city, as well as other cities here like Oshawa, Ontario, another one reliant on the auto trade. Windsor, as an example, with the help of the provincial and federal governments, has done a pretty good job of attracting new business and creating tools and incentives to get new small business investment. For example, they've offered a plan that rebates business property taxes from the city for the first 10 years of a new business locating in Windsor. They've diversified their economy much more to counteract the loss in the auto sector. And Windsor plays on it's proximaty to American markets with the largest transfer of goods travelling back and forth across the Detroit river daily.

What I'm trying to get at with this is that the city of Windsor has been proactive in diversifying and moving itself to the new economic realities it faces. Windsor still has the highest unemployment rate of any major city in Canada at 9.4% but it's manageable and there's hope for better times in the future and it's because the powers that be in Windsor, in Ontario, and in Canada didn't and don't want to see a city die.

If you don't mind, I'll be a lazy-bone and ask you if the car makers in Windsor laid out the town the way GM did? They really failed to provide for the future and the place is a jumble of unused commercial lands.

Were the cars all made by GM or were there multiple companies?

Please understand, I'm not disagreeing. Just trying to learn something.
 
I could be wrong, but I believe that refers to the probability that under bankruptcy, the city's contracts with various union groups would be voided and pension obligations under those contracts would cease making that money available to help restructure the city. I don't believe that the city manages the various pension plans - here in Canada, that wouldn't be legal - so there would be no ability to raid the pension plan assets and they wouldn't be subject to the bankruptcy proceedings.

Perhaps, we are talking two different things. In MI Orr has a lot of power as the financial manager.

Orr is a lawyer with the Washington law firm Jones Day. He's best known for his work on restructuring Chrysler in its bankruptcy of 2009.

As emergency manager, he will have the power to renegotiate or even terminate the city's labor contracts, privatize public services and sell some city assets. Detroit's City Council has vigorously protested the move. But, today, Mayor Dave Bing said he will work with Orr to do what's best for the city. Michigan Gov. Puts Detroit Under Emergency Fiscal Management | PBS NewsHour | March 14, 2013 | PBS

Here is my problem: Analysis shows Detroit pension funds in better shape than Orr says | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

I call it a conflict of interest.
 
As opposed to my tax dollar (from CA) being invested in the city? Why not?

Perhaps because we are all Americans who come to the aid of our countrymen in time of need?
 
If you don't mind, I'll be a lazy-bone and ask you if the car makers in Windsor laid out the town the way GM did? They really failed to provide for the future and the place is a jumble of unused commercial lands.

Were the cars all made by GM or were there multiple companies?

Please understand, I'm not disagreeing. Just trying to learn something.

I don't have all the answers but Windsor is the headquarters for Chrysler in Canada with an assembly plant that does minivan products and it also had Ford assembly plants, but I believe they've been closed as Ford consolidated in other parts of Ontario as did GM. I'm not sure about the layouts, but certainly Windsor isn't what I'd call an industrial giant with factories spread out and a lot of abandoned commercial property. It has a pretty nice, small city, downtown area with lots of residential areas both directly in the downtown and spreading out from there. Windsor is also a bit of a university town with a lot of young people coming to the city for eductation.

One major difference that should be noted is that Windsor is an overwhelmingly "white" city with well over 70% of the population being from English or French European backgrounds or Canadian born ancestors and the population is also about 50% Catholic, for what that's worth.

Not sure if that helps.
 
Perhaps, we are talking two different things. In MI Orr has a lot of power as the financial manager.

Orr is a lawyer with the Washington law firm Jones Day. He's best known for his work on restructuring Chrysler in its bankruptcy of 2009.

As emergency manager, he will have the power to renegotiate or even terminate the city's labor contracts, privatize public services and sell some city assets. Detroit's City Council has vigorously protested the move. But, today, Mayor Dave Bing said he will work with Orr to do what's best for the city. Michigan Gov. Puts Detroit Under Emergency Fiscal Management | PBS NewsHour | March 14, 2013 | PBS

Here is my problem: Analysis shows Detroit pension funds in better shape than Orr says | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

I call it a conflict of interest.

And the right has conveniently tried to ignore those better pension figures since it threatens to derail their extremist train.

It like they WANT a pension disaster simply as a tool to further their own agenda.
 
Perhaps, we are talking two different things. In MI Orr has a lot of power as the financial manager.

Orr is a lawyer with the Washington law firm Jones Day. He's best known for his work on restructuring Chrysler in its bankruptcy of 2009.

As emergency manager, he will have the power to renegotiate or even terminate the city's labor contracts, privatize public services and sell some city assets. Detroit's City Council has vigorously protested the move. But, today, Mayor Dave Bing said he will work with Orr to do what's best for the city. Michigan Gov. Puts Detroit Under Emergency Fiscal Management | PBS NewsHour | March 14, 2013 | PBS

Here is my problem: Analysis shows Detroit pension funds in better shape than Orr says | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

I call it a conflict of interest.

I don't know all the details - I probably shouldn't go by my Canadian experience - here, public sector pension plans are legislated entities not part of the city or province, and partially governed by those elected by the employee members of the plans. There is zero ability for a city to take money from a pension plan and use it for other purposes and the pension plans themselves are limited by legislation as to what they can do with the money by way of investment.
 
And the right has conveniently tried to ignore those better pension figures since it threatens to derail their extremist train.

It like they WANT a pension disaster simply as a tool to further their own agenda.

That's exactly right. Bruce Bartlett has talked about how the GOP for years have wanted to starve the government of funds. This creates the situation where government is unable to function and therefore privatization becomes the only option. He termed it "Starve the Beast" economics. Paul Krugman also has written about it.
 
Our money from outside of Detroit would be the public hand out the left expects from the FED's to maintain their lovely status quo and ignore their failures.

So let me see if I understand you - not trying to be rude - its ok for private investors to buy bonds to "invest" in Detroit and lose everything but pension funds for detroit govt employees shouldn't be put into such investments?


Why would you think he would take your money in CA? He has no right to take money that is suppose to be used toward pensions to rebuild the city. There is nothing right about it.
 
I don't have all the answers but Windsor is the headquarters for Chrysler in Canada with an assembly plant that does minivan products and it also had Ford assembly plants, but I believe they've been closed as Ford consolidated in other parts of Ontario as did GM. I'm not sure about the layouts, but certainly Windsor isn't what I'd call an industrial giant with factories spread out and a lot of abandoned commercial property. It has a pretty nice, small city, downtown area with lots of residential areas both directly in the downtown and spreading out from there. Windsor is also a bit of a university town with a lot of young people coming to the city for eductation.

One major difference that should be noted is that Windsor is an overwhelmingly "white" city with well over 70% of the population being from English or French European backgrounds or Canadian born ancestors and the population is also about 50% Catholic, for what that's worth.

Not sure if that helps.

It does help and gives me a better understanding.

Detroit does suffer from the loss of the white population. Blacks are still behind the curve in terms of economics. That's mostly understandable when you realize that its only been 48 years since we treated them as humans. So, between the fleeing of the wealthier whites, the sprawling layout of the factories, the piss poor management and corruption of officials etc. they are in a bad way and probably do need to be restructured. Even though American cars are making a comeback, there is so much automation that they will never employ the volume of people they did in the past and those that they do employ will need degrees, not just muscles and patience.

I actually do think there is hope for Detroit and as I've posted before, if I were younger, I would take a look at the opportunities there while real estate is going for a song. Eventually, they'll have a rel downtown and will resemble Chicago, which for all its crime issues, is far more prosperous.

Canada is fortunate to have a much smaller population and many Asian immigrants. Not to mention a lot mellower than America.
 
Kevyn Orr, the EM of Detroit with nearly dictatorial powers, has given an interview with the Wall Street Journal in which he insulted the city, its people and its history. It demonstrates the contempt Orr has for the people whom he is suppose to lead to the Promised Land of Fiscal Health.

The Weekend Interview with Kevyn Orr: How Detroit Can Rise Again - WSJ.com



So according to Orr, what was wrong with Detroit was that people could make a good living in a good job, get a pension and health care and that killed the city. Amazing.

As somebody who was born in Detroit and raised in the neighboring city of Dearborn, this shows the complete ignorance of Orr for the true history of the city. What made Detroit hum like a well oiled machine for decades was precisely that people could come here with little education and get a factory job. They could earn a decent living, they could get married, but a modest home, have kids and raise a family in dignity and with a sense of self worth. On the block I grew up on in Dearborn in the Fifties and Sixties, there was not one college educated husband but they all had good jobs and all stayed put to raise their kids and everybody maintained their property and were decent citizens.

Too bad they did not know that instead of thinking of themselves as good citizens they should have realized they were just dumb, lazy and happy. As to the rich part - yeah Mr. Orr, we plead guilty to that. We were rich. We had a father with a decent paying job who packed a family of six or more in a 950 foot home. I used to get awakened every workday at 6 AM to see my dad leave a few minutes later and return every day around 4. He never took a day off and he taught me the value of both hard work and simply showing up. We had mothers who stayed home and loved and raised us. She taught me the value of sacrificing so others could have it better. We actually could buy a new car every five years and if we were lucky we could go camping for a week fifty miles away and call that our annual vacation. And after 35 or 40 years in a dirty factory, our dads could retire for a few years before they died because their job was a union job and that was a negotiated benefit.

Dumb, lazy and rich. We all had the Detroit disease but did not know it.

But I guess its okay because Detroit has been cured of that disease. Everybody knows that today you can't lead a middle class life with a spouse and a family and a new car every five years without any higher education. Today, we have made progress and the Detroit disease has been eradicated as people in those same social positions now learn to say "welcome to wal mart" or "you want fries with that burger?" And they get less than ten bucks to do that and if they are lucky they have another such job and maybe a spouse with two of their own also. And together they can work 120 hours a week and hold off creditors and pray nobody gets sick because they have no union or no union benefit contract.

And dreams of retirement? No way Jose. Ain't gonna happen. Its social security for you and thats only if the right does not have its way and we axe that program by the time you are ready for it all in the name of progress.

It must be nice to be Kevyn Orr coming in as a invading carpetbagger and leaving with hundreds of thousand of dollars in his bank account and a new notch on his resume. It must be nice to have dictatorial powers and be able to destroy what is left of fat, lazy and dumb people who worked for forty years to get that pension so you can teach them the hard lessons of life so Detroit can become some kind of experiment in rebuilding.



So much for what Abraham Lincoln called a government of the people, by the people and for the people.


Dumb, lazy and fat. But thank to Kevyn Orr and his plans for you - the rich part of the equation is no longer a fantasy that people are embracing.

Dumb fat and lazy. Welcome to Michigan Mr. Orr. At least we are no longer rich.

He's calling it as it is.
 
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