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Detroit EFM insults city and retirees

Either way - nobody is in the market. It is only the downtown, riverfront, and new center areas which are valuable - and those are the central city you want to keep. The surrounding neighborhoods are where all the poverty and problems are.

Fine, have it your way. If the adjacent cities don't want to take any adjacent land, and no one would big on any land for private use, then instead of having dilapidated housing, start converting the land to green uses. Open spaces, trees, solar panels, geothermal energy, etc. De-Urbanize Detroit in a legendary fashion. If the land is worth squat, then eminent domain should be really cheap. Drop Detroit down to 10 or 20 square miles and give up the rest to the county.
 
Like I said, if you are offended by the truth, you gots problems. I would also counter your second claim about pissing and Lincoln by saying that Detroit, including its people, have proven incapable of successfully governing themselves. At that point, it is the duty of the PEOPLE OF MICHIGAN to step up. One could say that Kevyn Orr, being appointed by the People's Governor of Michigan, is simply enforcing the will of the people of Michigan on Detroit after the people there proved themselves incompetant at successful self-governance. Orr is therefore "of the people" of Michigan, granted his powers "by the people" of Michigan, and acts "for the people" of Detroit and Michigan. That the people of Detroit can't see that what he is doing is good for them is unsurprising, considering the state they got themselves in. I find your statements somewhat comical because Lincoln is the one president who sent congress home and essentially pulled a Julius Caesar on the American people during the Civil war. Do you consider Lincoln a benevolent dictator? The people of Detroit are going to see Orr as a dictator regardless of what he does; that is what he was brought in to do. That is why his "benevolent" dictator remarks ring true.

Sadly, our friend Haymarket is showing himself to have a very slanted view.

He would surely not be complaining if the administrator was a white Democrat.
 
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Its pretty clear the masses living there (based on their votes) don't expect to be part of this solution; they expect to live and enjoy the solution provided to them by someone else.


One man cannot save a city. It will require active participation by the people living there, if there is every any hope of Detroit becoming significant again, for anything besides crime and poverty.
 
Its pretty clear the masses living there (based on their votes) don't expect to be part of this solution; they expect to live and enjoy the solution provided to them by someone else.

Well, I would suggest that they start getting a clue before the city all but collapses in on itself.
 
Well, I would suggest that they start getting a clue before the city all but collapses in on itself.

And the history of Detroit is effectively summed up in one sentence!
 
You're welcome, and in case it wasn't clear, I'm one conservative who believes that saving an important city like Detroit is one of the things I believe government should be involved in and should be responsible for. Government failed the people of Detroit up until now and government needs to make good on its responsibilities to Detroit.

I believe the bankruptcy proceedings should run their course because actions have consequences and the pain of those actions should be spread around. But once the dust settles, I'd like to see that the State and the Federal governments have worked on a way to restore a smaller, more efficient government that can deal with the core responsibilities of city governance and start to build back both a tax base and a population base to support the city governance going forward.

If Detroit is aided federally, then every other US city in bankruptcy should be accorded the same assistance.

They should receive no federal aid.
 
You're welcome, and in case it wasn't clear, I'm one conservative who believes that saving an important city like Detroit is one of the things I believe government should be involved in and should be responsible for. Government failed the people of Detroit up until now and government needs to make good on its responsibilities to Detroit.

Detroit was once important, but that time is far in the past.
 
You cherry picked the negativity as usual.

His comments were accurate and he is working to make the city viable.

Your denial reflects the root of Detroit's failure.

Detroit's current financial woes can only be blamed on.....Detroit.

Yeah, it's not like it's in the state of Michigan or anything, or the GOP misrule of Michigan had anything to do with it.
 
the roots of Detroit's failure came in two things

1- the loss of 2/3 of the city population and the jobs and tax base that went with that exodus
2- extreme racial polarization which fed into the first factor and only made it worse

So tell me how current Detroiters get blamed for an exodus of people, jobs and tax base that began over 60 years ago when most of the current population was not even alive?

For those less up to speed with the history of Detroit, your #2 was more about race riots than simple racial polarization is that correct.

Sort of like calling the shooting at Fort Hood a workplace accident, oh wait the administration already did that!
 
Kevyn Orr, the EM of Detroit with nearly dictatorial powers, has given an interview with the Wall Street Journal in which he insulted the city, its people and its history. It demonstrates the contempt Orr has for the people whom he is suppose to lead to the Promised Land of Fiscal Health.

The Weekend Interview with Kevyn Orr: How Detroit Can Rise Again - WSJ.com



So according to Orr, what was wrong with Detroit was that people could make a good living in a good job, get a pension and health care and that killed the city. Amazing.

As somebody who was born in Detroit and raised in the neighboring city of Dearborn, this shows the complete ignorance of Orr for the true history of the city. What made Detroit hum like a well oiled machine for decades was precisely that people could come here with little education and get a factory job. They could earn a decent living, they could get married, but a modest home, have kids and raise a family in dignity and with a sense of self worth. On the block I grew up on in Dearborn in the Fifties and Sixties, there was not one college educated husband but they all had good jobs and all stayed put to raise their kids and everybody maintained their property and were decent citizens.

Too bad they did not know that instead of thinking of themselves as good citizens they should have realized they were just dumb, lazy and happy. As to the rich part - yeah Mr. Orr, we plead guilty to that. We were rich. We had a father with a decent paying job who packed a family of six or more in a 950 foot home. I used to get awakened every workday at 6 AM to see my dad leave a few minutes later and return every day around 4. He never took a day off and he taught me the value of both hard work and simply showing up. We had mothers who stayed home and loved and raised us. She taught me the value of sacrificing so others could have it better. We actually could buy a new car every five years and if we were lucky we could go camping for a week fifty miles away and call that our annual vacation. And after 35 or 40 years in a dirty factory, our dads could retire for a few years before they died because their job was a union job and that was a negotiated benefit.

Dumb, lazy and rich. We all had the Detroit disease but did not know it.

But I guess its okay because Detroit has been cured of that disease. Everybody knows that today you can't lead a middle class life with a spouse and a family and a new car every five years without any higher education. Today, we have made progress and the Detroit disease has been eradicated as people in those same social positions now learn to say "welcome to wal mart" or "you want fries with that burger?" And they get less than ten bucks to do that and if they are lucky they have another such job and maybe a spouse with two of their own also. And together they can work 120 hours a week and hold off creditors and pray nobody gets sick because they have no union or no union benefit contract.

And dreams of retirement? No way Jose. Ain't gonna happen. Its social security for you and thats only if the right does not have its way and we axe that program by the time you are ready for it all in the name of progress.

It must be nice to be Kevyn Orr coming in as a invading carpetbagger and leaving with hundreds of thousand of dollars in his bank account and a new notch on his resume. It must be nice to have dictatorial powers and be able to destroy what is left of fat, lazy and dumb people who worked for forty years to get that pension so you can teach them the hard lessons of life so Detroit can become some kind of experiment in rebuilding.



So much for what Abraham Lincoln called a government of the people, by the people and for the people.


Dumb, lazy and fat. But thank to Kevyn Orr and his plans for you - the rich part of the equation is no longer a fantasy that people are embracing.

Dumb fat and lazy. Welcome to Michigan Mr. Orr. At least we are no longer rich.

I remember having a conversation several years ago when I was wondering how bond agencies have taken over cities. I was thinking, "when did this all happen? Was I asleep and then woke up?" I have a family member who works in the sociological dept. at Clark University. He has educated me quite a bit on what is going on around the world and here in the US. I found this clip informative and wanted to share.

https://www.msu.edu/user/hillrr/CS The Neoliberal City Hackworth.htm

snips-

There's been a shift in economy policy for the last 30 years or so in this country and around the world. In response to the Great Depresssion, Keynesian came to life. Keynes prescribed government regulations, progressive taxation and infrastructure work through government. Things were good until the 1970s and the breakdown of the international monetary regime, economic crises in the mass production industries etc... jump started the neoliberal project in this country.

Keynesian urban governance is characterized by local participation in federal programs, strong city administration, and commitment to decent standards of collective consumption. The neoliberal counterpart, urban entrepreneurialism, devolves regulatory power from national to local authorities, diffuses local government authority to public/private partnerships, emphasizes consumerism and unregulated growth.

Urban form in the Keynesian era is characterized by suburban growth, inner city decline, regulated development, and public investment in infrastructure. The Neoliberal City, by contrast, evinces investment in the inner city and in the exurbs, declining inner ring suburbs, slack land use controls, and reduced public investment. The Keynesian focus on public housing in the inner city shifts to the neoliberal emphasis on gentrification and commercial mega-projects. The gentrifyers themselves also change as profit-seeking land development firms replace individual owner occupiers.

The mechanisms for neoliberalization are several, and Hackworth never puts them all together in one place, but the basic argument goes something like this. National cutbacks in urban expenditures require cities to find new sources of revenue. Deregulation of finance simultaneously expands the range and availability of private capital. Federal retrenchment and the devolution of revenue raising responsibility to localities forces cities to compete for resources in the private capital market. The upshot is that profit driven financial institutions (commercial banks, thrifts, institutional investors), and their intermediaries, like bond rating agencies, replace federal regulatory agencies as overseers of urban development and they wield enormous “disciplinary authority” over cities through their ability to turn the capital spigot on and off.

I'll comment on this shift in another post.
 
If Detroit is aided federally, then every other US city in bankruptcy should be accorded the same assistance.

They should receive no federal aid.

As you'll note, I said that the bankruptcy should proceed regardless of the outcomes and who it may hurt, but that the state and the federal government should be prepared to assist them coming out of bankruptcy. It's what higher levels of government should do and one of the real purposes of their existence, in my view.
 
fully 30% of the goods produced to win world war two was manufactured in detroit
i believe that ramping up of production and workers during the 40's is why detroit experienced population declines beginning in the 50's
our nation's golden age
we were the only industrial nation without a destroyed infrastructure
"made in the USA" caused the product bearing that legend to be prized, both at home and abroad
but since that time, when there was no real international competition, the rest of the industrialized world re-tooled
they became competitive, and competitors
their markets, which had become our markets, returned to buying domestic made goods
so, our global market began to shrink
and instead of re-investing infrastructure, to remain dominant, we used those monies as dividends to the share holders
and after the first oil embargo, the seeds of detroit's ultimate decline were sown
reliable, cheap, small cars, something detroit honchos insisted were not wanted by American drivers, were provided by japan, eroding detroit's share of our domestic market
while it is now 27 years old, The Reckoning remains the most incisive account of what went wrong with detroit in particular and the USA in general.
When Nissan Had a Better Idea
and the stark reality is detroit is now bankrupt. comparative advantage is much to blame. but a large degree of blame is due to the executives, in the big three, in the unions, and in the local government, who promised what they could not pay in the future for labor needed today
and there is also the culture of the resident community. here is a VERY telling stat: only 7 percent of the eighth graders are grade-level proficient or better in reading Only 7% of Detroit Public-School 8th Graders Proficient in Reading | CNS News
detroit has become a city where education is not valued; probably because of its history of being a place where those without a significant education could thrive
but we are now in the information age. and much of detroit is not
now back to its legacy of building what the government required, back when it was essential to our nation's survival
if a manufacturer/service provider located and operated from detroit produces what it proposes to sell to the federal sector, that bidder should have its bid evaluated at 10% less than all other non-detroit bidders. for instance, detroit corp bids $1 million. for purposes of evaluating its bid with other bidders, that price will be shown to be $900,000 [the company would still be awarded a $1 million contract, the discount is only for purposes of bid competition]. if it wins the bid, and such advantage should gain many won bids, contractors will soon flock to detroit to set up shop. not only would they pay local taxes, and hire local employees (where qualified), they will bring a motivation to elevate the skill set of the local work force, so that detroit could once again become both competitive and solvent
 
So people left Detroit in droves because it was well managed as a place people want to stay at, or even *gasp* move to?
The leaps of reasoning required to make haymarket's claim consistent are as outrageous as usual.

Everyone knows unions and government officials milked it until it's the current husk we see today. The only thing worse than that, is their robust denial of it.
 
I value highly the right of the people to govern themselves. Do you consider the people of Michigan and the people of Detroit seperate entities? The people of Detroit at some point have to answer to the People of Michigan.

Is this a supposed one way relationship?
 
The people of Detroit failed the people of Detroit by electing corrupt individuals who did not put the people of Detroit ahead of their own interests.

They are doing that using a person titled the "Emergency Financial Manager." You may have heard of him, his name is Kevyn Orr.

One mayor - Kilpatrick - was convicted of corruption. So tell me more about the failure of the people.
 
That is very offensive and you know it.

You have no idea about my thought process or intent.

Are you a soothsayer?

One does not need to read entrails or tea leaves to read your own words that you would flood an entire city of 143 square miles and wreak the havoc and destruction that would then ensue. That part is painfully obvious.

Originally Posted by haymarket
And what should the City government have done about it? A Berlin Wall perhaps?

your reply

Yup- 20 feet high and completely surrounding the city.

Once completed, fill it with water.

I agree that the very idea is highly offensive. Any thinking human being should be grossly offended at such a suggestion worthy of the worst tyrants in history.

Your intent was clear and unmistakable. Wipe away Detroit and everything in it. Your concern for the lives of 700,000 people and the property rights of the citizens as well as the public and corporate property involved is less than touching.
 
So people left Detroit in droves because it was well managed as a place people want to stay at, or even *gasp* move to?
The leaps of reasoning required to make haymarket's claim consistent are as outrageous as usual.

Everyone knows unions and government officials milked it until it's the current husk we see today. The only thing worse than that, is their robust denial of it.

Now all that is left is for you to prove those allegation with facts.

You could start with the one about unions milking the city.
 
With neoliberal policies have come wealth disparities. Citizens have been reduced to consumers. Markets are dominated by powerful trans-national corporations. Social contracts are broken meaning all things from public education, public infrastructure, social security, health care etc....are made into public/private initiatives where the public takes on the risk of private investment (meaning any loss) while the private interest reaps the profit. Nearly all risk is shifted to the public including things that were once relatively safe like retirement. Schools become stratified.
 
Fine, have it your way. If the adjacent cities don't want to take any adjacent land, and no one would big on any land for private use, then instead of having dilapidated housing, start converting the land to green uses. Open spaces, trees, solar panels, geothermal energy, etc. De-Urbanize Detroit in a legendary fashion. If the land is worth squat, then eminent domain should be really cheap. Drop Detroit down to 10 or 20 square miles and give up the rest to the county.

You would have to pay to relocate the people to at least a comparable house and property. Who is going to do that and where does that money come from?
 
Now all that is left is for you to prove those allegation with facts.
like that's going to happen
we are both wasting bandwidth with such an expectation

You could start with the one about unions milking the city.
unions, the bogeyman of the reich wing
 
For those less up to speed with the history of Detroit, your #2 was more about race riots than simple racial polarization is that correct.

Sort of like calling the shooting at Fort Hood a workplace accident, oh wait the administration already did that!

racial polarization goes back to the beginning of the 20th century long before any riots took place. They were merely evidence of that sad reality.

This article pulls no punches and shows how both whites and blacks created one of the most racially polarized cities in the nation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...8dc6-f068-11e2-bed3-b9b6fe264871_story_1.html

Detroit is the most segregated city in America

http://www.businessinsider.com/most-segregated-cities-census-maps-2013-4?op=1
 
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like that's going to happen
we are both wasting bandwidth with such an expectation


unions, the bogeyman of the reich wing

Of course its not going to happen. Detroit is merely the latest knee jerk reflex on the part of the right to bash unions and working people and the democratic party. It so phony that it is laughable. When you get some of the real far righties talking about flooding Detroit and by clear implication wiping out all the people and property - you know you are dealing with the lunatic fringe motivated only by hate and extremist ideology. Now that part is anything but laughable. Its criminal and downright scary so much that it makes the Heath Ledger Joker character look like Mother Teresa by comparison.
 
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Why? You don't expect an obummer hand out to make their day? Really? Here is my projection:

1) investors will get hosed - completely - possibly even 100% hosed out of every dollar they invested in to the city via bonds and such.

2) public employee union phat pensions will be made whole and full with a certain federal stimuli or something to make sure they don't lose a dime

3) while rioting the public employees in retirement "might" suffer a tad degradation in their LIFE TIME free health insurance program, but it'll still be there for them

4) the city will plow ahead without having to pay back those who gave it money and be a shinny star for every other liberal city in plight to follow


Well, I would suggest that they start getting a clue before the city all but collapses in on itself.
 
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