Desecration of the U.S. Flag.

[Hatuey]

I've noticed how some of our more conservatives members foam at the mouth whenever they get the opportunity to point out that liberals are anti-American because some liberals have been caught on camera burning the flag. I've done some research on what should and should not be done with our flag and come up with this :

United States Flag Code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

* The flag should never be dipped to any person or thing, unless it is the ensign responding to a salute from a ship of a foreign nation. This tradition comes from the 1908 Summer Olympics in London, where countries were asked to dip their flag to King Edward VII: the American team captain Martin Sheridan refused, famously proclaiming that "this flag dips to no earthly king."[1]
* The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property. [2]
* The flag should not be used as "wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery",[1] or for covering a speaker's desk, draping a platform, or for any decoration in general (exception for coffins). Bunting of blue, white and red stripes is available for these purposes. The blue stripe of the bunting should be on the top.
* The flag should never be drawn back or bunched up in any way.
* The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
* The flag should never be used for any advertising purpose. It should not be embroidered, printed, or otherwise impressed on such articles as cushions, handkerchiefs, napkins, boxes, or anything intended to be discarded after temporary use. Advertising signs should not be attached to the staff or halyard.
* The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform, except that a flag patch may be used on the uniform of military personnel, firefighters, police officers, and members of patriotic organizations. (Note that on Army uniforms, where the flag is put on the sleeve of the uniform, the flag patch is displayed with the stars facing forward, in the direction the wearer is facing. This is done to give the impression of the flag flowing in the wind while being carried forward across the battlefield. This is known as the "Reverse Field Flag".) Flag lapel pins may also be worn.
* The flag should never have placed on it, or attached to it, any mark, insignia, letter, word, number, figure, or drawing of any kind.
* The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
* The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle, railroad train, or boat.
* When the flag is lowered, no part of it should touch the ground or any other object; it should be received by waiting hands and arms. To store the flag it should be folded neatly and ceremoniously.
* The flag should be cleaned and mended when necessary.
* If the flag is being used at a public or private estate, it should not be hung (unless at half mast) during rain or violent weather.
* When a flag is so worn it is no longer fit to serve as a symbol of the United States, it should be destroyed in a dignified manner, preferably by burning. The American Legion and other organizations regularly conduct dignified flag-burning ceremonies, often on Flag Day, June 14.
* The flag should never touch anything beneath it. Contrary to an urban legend, the flag code does not state that a flag that touches the ground should be burned. Instead, the flag should be moved so it is not touching the ground.

Now, while I agree that flag burning is disrespectful, why is it that some conservatives refuse to condemn people who commit some of these disrespectful acts commited against our flag?

Being worn as part of a costume at a Support Our Troops rally :

Being used as a mug :

As underwear

The flag being used for advertising purposes

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE3SNHGMa10 [/YOUTUBE]

So my question is : Why is there no outcry over these equally disrespectful uses our flag has been put to?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

The issue is a hypocritical one. One one side, The US Flag Code identifies all the things that you've said, yet these things are rarely enforced because they are in direct conflict with the First Amendment. Any acts limiting the use of the flag in expression have been struck down by the Supreme Court.

Texas v. Johnson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
United States v. Eichman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These two cases struck down successive attempts at Flag Protection Acts as unconstitutional, supporting the First Amendment.

On the other side there is the proposed Flag Desecration Amendment which has failed passage in Congress since 1995. If it was enacted, then all the things you mention would become illegal. Those of you who speak so strongly against those who burn the flag, if this Amendment is passed, will you also condemn those depicted desecrating the flag in other ways? In fact, will you do that now?

 

[RightOfCenter]

I've noticed how some of our more conservatives members foam at the mouth whenever they get the opportunity to point out that liberals are anti-American because some liberals have been caught on camera burning the flag. I've done some research on what should and should not be done with our flag and come up with this :

United States Flag Code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Now, while I agree that flag burning is disrespectful, why is it that some conservatives refuse to condemn people who commit some of these disrespectful acts commited against our flag?

Being worn as part of a costume at a Support Our Troops rally :

Being used as a mug :

As underwear

The flag being used for advertising purposes

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vE3SNHGMa10 [/YOUTUBE]

So my question is : Why is there no outcry over these equally disrespectful uses our flag has been put to?

Because in a misguided, ill-informed way the people you have shown are attempting to show respect for the US and the flag. The people who burn it are not.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Because in a misguided, ill-informed way the people you have shown are attempting to show respect for the US and the flag. The people who burn it are not.

Does ignorance of the law, excuse breaking it? And those burning it are protesting, an important concept that this country is founded on. This is the problem with enacting laws like this. When you take away one thing, many others go along with it.

 

[Billo_Really]

How 'bout this one?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

How 'bout this one?

Absolutely against the code. That man should be arrested. Billo, I will entrust you to make a citizen's arrest, and to do with him as you will.

 

[bigsmitty]

These laws aren't even real. I support anyone's right to do whatever they want to a flag- so long as they own it. I wouldn't burn a flag or otherwise knowingly disrespect it, but there's no reason one shouldn't be able to.

 

[Inuyasha]

Looking at Hatuey's original post it would seem that just about all of us has "desecrated" the flag at one time or another. Maybe our "disregard (for lack of a better term) for the flag is sparked by the First Amendment and maybe just out of ignorance. Other nations have very strict enforceable laws about their flag. Maybe we should have a simpler code that stress the important aspects of the flag code more.,

I would never burn the flag of any nation including those of my enemies. It is a barbaric practice that shows little regard for the flag of a nation. I am distressed when I see those little plastic flags all fade and put up around used car lots or something similar.

The other point is as I look around I see that we display the flag with greater frequency than do many other nations. This is usually because those nations have very strict law about when, where and who can display their national colors. Maybe we have become somewhat insensitive to the issue because of that.

 

[disneydude]

When the people who claim to "stand up" for the US Flag show as much concern and outrage over the rights of the citizens as they do about the rights of an inanimate object they will ACTUALLY show support for the object they claim to admire so much.

 

[dragonslayer]

Politics. Bush has put our flag into horrible situations and is has been desecrated and disrepected. Much of the time by King George. When is the government going to put our flag into some use that is honorable?

 

[Travelsonic]

Does ignorance of the law, excuse breaking it?

Dunno, I see a difference between blind ignorance and actually failing to know what these particular, not-even-close-to-common laws are, which is why I hate the "ignorance of the law is no excuse! blah blah blah" arguments when used in a way that fails to account for the potential difference.

 

[RightOfCenter]

Does ignorance of the law, excuse breaking it? And those burning it are protesting, an important concept that this country is founded on. This is the problem with enacting laws like this. When you take away one thing, many others go along with it.

I wasn't aware that the flag code was law.

 

[RightinNYC]

I wasn't aware that the flag code was law.

This is the real point. While the flag code is technically part of federal law, there are no penalties for violating it, nor is it enforceable beyond social pressure. It's basically a law of etiquette. So in the hypothetical scenario where Congress managed to pass a Flag Desecration Amendment that would be interpreted to outlaw acts intending to desecrate the flag, its wouldn't be inconsistent with current statute.

 

[Cephus]

These laws aren't even real. I support anyone's right to do whatever they want to a flag- so long as they own it. I wouldn't burn a flag or otherwise knowingly disrespect it, but there's no reason one shouldn't be able to.

Exactly so. If I own something, I have every right to do with it as I wish. If I want to burn it, then I can burn it. If I wish to fly it, then I can fly it. It's not only a freedom of speech issue but a freedom of expression issue, both of which are benchmark freedoms that we are guaranteed in this country. It's really sad to see the fanatical conservatives whining about a piece of cloth and tossing the Constitution out the window.

Besides, half the flags out there were made in China, just how much patriotism can you have caring about something not even made here? It's just ludicrous.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Captain Courtesy:
Absolutely against the code. That man should be arrested. Billo, I will entrust you to make a citizen's arrest, and to do with him as you will.

The worse thing I wish for that man, is un-employment.

 

[RightOfCenter]

Exactly so. If I own something, I have every right to do with it as I wish. If I want to burn it, then I can burn it. If I wish to fly it, then I can fly it. It's not only a freedom of speech issue but a freedom of expression issue, both of which are benchmark freedoms that we are guaranteed in this country. It's really sad to see the fanatical conservatives whining about a piece of cloth and tossing the Constitution out the window.

Besides, half the flags out there were made in China, just how much patriotism can you have caring about something not even made here? It's just ludicrous.

You're not allowed to do whatever you want with everything you own. You certainly aren't allowed to burn your dog, nor fly him.

 

[Southern Belle]

Wow, I REALLY didn't know all that was how you were supposed to treat the flag. I just remember that you aren't supposed to let it touch the ground and you have to fold it a certain way. That's interesting, hmmm... I guess it's a freedom vs respect issue, I think, but they can't really do much to enforce it now, but if they did that might not be bad, respect is needed. I always found it funny when foreigners say their flags couldn't be somewhere, it's because they respect theirs and we don't...

 

[1069]

Wow, I REALLY didn't know all that was how you were supposed to treat the flag. I just remember that you aren't supposed to let it touch the ground and you have to fold it a certain way. That's interesting, hmmm... I guess it's a freedom vs respect issue, I think, but they can't really do much to enforce it now, but if they did that might not be bad, respect is needed. I always found it funny when foreigners say their flags couldn't be somewhere, it's because they respect theirs and we don't...

Heck most of our flags these days (at least, the ones from Walmart) come with a little gold sticker attached, which says, "Made in China".

Talk about disrespect.

I guess it's not worth paying American workers $5.35 per hour to manufacture flags in an American factory. Outsourcing our flag manufacturing to China doesn't really convey the message that flags are soooo vitally important, in the grand scheme of things.

 

[jamesrage]

So my question is : Why is there no outcry over these equally disrespectful uses our flag has been put to?

Because those examples you shown are not considered disrespectful.Which is why a pro-American can wear a suit in red white and blue and nothing happen to him while a degenerate scumbag ***** anti-American hippy will get the **** beat out of him for wearing a suit in red,white and blue.In other words it is context.

 

[Kandahar]

Because those examples you shown are not considered disrespectful.Which is why a pro-American can wear a suit in red white and blue and nothing happen to him while a degenerate scumbag ***** anti-American hippy will get the **** beat out of him for wearing a suit in red,white and blue.In other words it is context.

It's still disrespectful to wear the flag. Just like the signature that you used to have was disrespectful, which featured an American flag with swear words written on it.

 

[jamesrage]

It's still disrespectful to wear the flag. Just like the signature that you used to have was disrespectful, which featured an American flag with swear words written on it.

A flag in the shape of the United States as a patch with the words "don't **** with us" is in the context of patriotism not disrespect.

 

[Kandahar]

A flag in the shape of the United States as a patch with the words "don't **** with us" is in the context of patriotism not disrespect.

Nevertheless, you were desecrating the flag.

 

[1069]

A flag in the shape of the United States as a patch with the words "don't **** with us" is in the context of patriotism not disrespect.

Is it your belief, then, that the US government has the time to investigate each and every incident of "flag desecration" to determine whether the intent behind it was respectful or disrespectful, and deal with it accordingly... and even if they did have the time, do you really think they'd be able to reach a consensus in each case?
Laws that can only be enforced arbitrarily aren't valid laws, and should not exist at all.

 

[Navy Pride]

When I see people on the left burning a flag it infuriates me....So many brave men have died protecting that object as some of our friends on the let have called it.......I am not for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage but I would be for one banning burning or desecrating the flag......

There is and incident I remember from a major league baseball game many years ago that comes to mind...I believe the Dodgers were playing the Cubs in La La land and some nut came out from the stands on to the field during the game and attempted to burn and American Flag.......Rick Monday was playing the outfield ran over and grabbed the flag from the lefty before he had a chance to burn it......I immediately became a Rick Monday fan......

Woe the day that any lefty tried to nurn and American Flag in front of me.....

 

[Hatuey]

When I see people on the left burning a flag it infuriates me....So many brave men have died protecting that object as some of our friends on the let have called it.......

Nobody has ever died protecting the U.S. flag. They died protecting the country. Learn the difference.