Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppression’ allege

[Ikari]

Re: Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppressionâ€

With respect, my friend, that is a good sentiment. It is not, alas, how the world works. I have railed - incessantly - about how the two major parties collude to prevent third parties from getting on the ballot. I made a study of it in college. This is, indeed, another example of that - but a queered version of it, as one party was deliberately trying to deceive voters, and the candidates being promoted were not members of the party.

I believe in free, open, and fair elections. This is not about that, in my opinion. I recognize the serious flaws of the major parties. I am also well aware that third parties have difficulty attracting enough adherents to reach that "critical mass" necessary to break out on their own, even where barriers to entry are low (as in my State). Greens, Libertarians, and others just haven't put up compelling candidates, or had a broad-based enough policy agenda to attract a substantial following. They have, historically, instead had the opposite effect - spoiling elections with the result that the opposite of their goals are achieved.

In my opinion they need to try another approach. It is NOT all about elections, but persuasion. Some have achieved some electoral success on a local basis by pursuing a tactic of persuasion, and that is how it should start. They need leavening, experience, a broader constituency. Running candidates for President without achieving some basis elsewhere is a fool's errand. That is why none have ever been successful - even close to successful. Every successful new/third party - in history - has been an offshoot of a larger, established party. I can think of no exceptions - including the Nazis and Communists. The Labor party was once a faction of the Liberal party. The Republicans were a faction of the Democratic-Republicans - primarily the Whigs - as are the Democrats.

I think there is some possibility that both of the major parties are going to fracture in the near future. Progressives in the Democratic party are restive, and traditional "conservatives" are appalled at the Trumpist wing of the current GOP. Greens would be more effective as a faction of the Democratic party than they are standing alone. That is simply how the world actually works, especially in a polity as large and diverse as ours.

People can rail about 3rd parties all they want, but unless you're voting 3rd party, you're just pissing into the wind.

The Main Party will not fracture because enough people have bought into the lie of faux-dichotomy. And so long as enough of you believe and practice that, that's going to be reality.

The LP and GP may not "attract substantial following", but they are essentially prevented from attracting any following because of campaign finance and participation rules. If the LP and GP, for instance, could be invited to the Debates, you'd see a huge increase in the numbers those Parties have.

And additionally, the 3rd parties don't need to win to have an impact. This entire thread is testament to that. To have some level of control over one of the parties, all you have to do is ensure they lose consistently. The Green Party can have an affect and pull the DNC and its platform more their way by benefit of causing them to lose. That is why we need continual 3rd party involvement, it's a check on the Main Party.

 

[NWRatCon]

Re: Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppressionâ€

People can rail about 3rd parties all they want, but unless you're voting 3rd party, you're just pissing into the wind.

The Main Party will not fracture because enough people have bought into the lie of faux-dichotomy. And so long as enough of you believe and practice that, that's going to be reality.

The LP and GP may not "attract substantial following", but they are essentially prevented from attracting any following because of campaign finance and participation rules. If the LP and GP, for instance, could be invited to the Debates, you'd see a huge increase in the numbers those Parties have.

And additionally, the 3rd parties don't need to win to have an impact. This entire thread is testament to that. To have some level of control over one of the parties, all you have to do is ensure they lose consistently. The Green Party can have an affect and pull the DNC and its platform more their way by benefit of causing them to lose. That is why we need continual 3rd party involvement, it's a check on the Main Party.

We can agree to disagree. I just have political science and history on my side.

I will give you this, though. In 1932 Roosevelt successfully co-opted much of the Socialist platform. As a result, the Socialist party essentially imploded. I think that we are on the verge of a similar occurrence. Indeed, it has been my observation that the United States has gone through an existential crisis about every 80 years and that has substantially changed the political landscape. The Civil War (1860), World War II (1940), and now "Trump". One can even include our own Revolutionary War. I believe over the course of the next 8-12 years the impetus for the Green party will fade as the Democratic party becomes the party of Green policy.

 

[Ikari]

Re: Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppressionâ€

We can agree to disagree. I just have political science and history on my side.

That's fine, I have political science, history, and the future on my side. You think Trump is bad, continued with your blind faith to the faux-dichotomy. You'll get worse.

 

[NWRatCon]

Re: Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppressionâ€

That's fine, I have political science, history, and the future on my side. You think Trump is bad, continued with your blind faith to the faux-dichotomy. You'll get worse.

I expanded my response. I don't want you to be wrong. I honestly don't. You just are.

 

[Logophile]

Re: Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppressionâ€

The last really serious independent contender we had was Ross Perot. As I recall, he bowed out over some scandal with his daughter, which today, wouldn't be a scandal at all, probably an asset. Anyway, the point being that it could happen again. The key is to have an independent run that represents most Americans, in other words, average folks. Most Americans are not extremists. Most Americans want clean air and water, support a strong military, like their pets, don't want to be spied on by the government - or by anybody else for that matter - want their kids to have opportunity, like the holidays, work hard when they have to and want more time off. Most Americans are wary of war, are nice to each other - unless venting on the internet - and will kindly offer to let a car in ahead of them in merging traffic. What they don't like is confrontational hostility, the huge disparity between the rich and the middle class, excessive taxation and so much regulation that they are afraid to expand their businesses. Most Americans just want a fair shake and a fair shake for each other. That can only happen when a third party acts as a catalyst for reasonable people to join the political field, and Americans are confident enough to vote their conscience instead of voting out of fear of the opposition. Thanks!!

 

[Ikari]

Re: Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppressionâ€

I expanded my response. I don't want you to be wrong. I honestly don't. You just are.

We'll be going through crisis's more and more often since the Oligarchy has solidified it's rule. The Democratic Party will only become more of a Green Democratic Party so long as the Green Party is allowed to participate. You start with throwing folk off the ballot, preventing competition, then there is no force for change. If the Democrats don't fear losing power or elections, they have no reason to swing to recapture the Green votes.

But your "expanded" post is exactly my point. The Green party doesn't need to win to make a difference. It merely needs to make one side lose consistently, and then that side has to move to recapture those lost votes. That's exactly my point. The push and pull on the Oligarchy comes from outside force, it's simple Physics. The Main Party may remain, but it's constantly rocked and slammed by the effects of third parties. Should the Main Party stray too far, enough people will leave for 3rd parties and one side will begin losing too often, they'll have to change.

So the Democrat party may become the party of Green policy, but only so long as they have lost enough elections because of people voting Green to force their hand. And it's never ending, keeping the Republic isn't like putting some book on a shelf. It requires constant input and force to maintain. And as such, it is important that 3rd parties exists and always run. So as it relates to this thread, no the Green Party should absolutely NOT stand aside. If Biden was too weak a candidate and the DNC loses again and we have 4 more years of Trump....they should have put up a better candidate.

 

[mrdeltoid]

Re: Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppressionâ€

You missed dictator Trump’s illegal orders today to put federal troops at minority polling places to threaten them not to vote. ETC on that one that TrumpQins love also.

You continue to ignore the sabotage of the USPS. You’re down with less polling places in minority areas and 8-hour lines, such as the Wisconsin disaster.

link?

 

[j brown's body]

Re: Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppressionâ€

The last really serious independent contender we had was Ross Perot. As I recall, he bowed out over some scandal with his daughter, which today, wouldn't be a scandal at all, probably an asset. Anyway, the point being that it could happen again. The key is to have an independent run that represents most Americans, in other words, average folks. Most Americans are not extremists. Most Americans want clean air and water, support a strong military, like their pets, don't want to be spied on by the government - or by anybody else for that matter - want their kids to have opportunity, like the holidays, work hard when they have to and want more time off. Most Americans are wary of war, are nice to each other - unless venting on the internet - and will kindly offer to let a car in ahead of them in merging traffic. What they don't like is confrontational hostility, the huge disparity between the rich and the middle class, excessive taxation and so much regulation that they are afraid to expand their businesses. Most Americans just want a fair shake and a fair shake for each other. That can only happen when a third party acts as a catalyst for reasonable people to join the political field, and Americans are confident enough to vote their conscience instead of voting out of fear of the opposition. Thanks!!

We are at the point now that some people, like Perot, are so rich, they can finance a third party run. But they can't build a sustainable third party, and probably aren't interested in doing that.

Like the third party voter, it's more about the person doing it than it is about the process itself.

 

[j brown's body]

Re: Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppressionâ€

We'll be going through crisis's more and more often since the Oligarchy has solidified it's rule. The Democratic Party will only become more of a Green Democratic Party so long as the Green Party is allowed to participate. You start with throwing folk off the ballot, preventing competition, then there is no force for change. If the Democrats don't fear losing power or elections, they have no reason to swing to recapture the Green votes.

But your "expanded" post is exactly my point. The Green party doesn't need to win to make a difference. It merely needs to make one side lose consistently, and then that side has to move to recapture those lost votes. That's exactly my point. The push and pull on the Oligarchy comes from outside force, it's simple Physics. The Main Party may remain, but it's constantly rocked and slammed by the effects of third parties. Should the Main Party stray too far, enough people will leave for 3rd parties and one side will begin losing too often, they'll have to change.

So the Democrat party may become the party of Green policy, but only so long as they have lost enough elections because of people voting Green to force their hand. And it's never ending, keeping the Republic isn't like putting some book on a shelf. It requires constant input and force to maintain. And as such, it is important that 3rd parties exists and always run. So as it relates to this thread, no the Green Party should absolutely NOT stand aside. If Biden was too weak a candidate and the DNC loses again and we have 4 more years of Trump....they should have put up a better candidate.

Perhaps another demagogue? That seems to be the "better candidate."

What a long slog, election after election claiming the Democrats needed to put up a better candidate as a demagogue tears the country apart. All for enabling self-satisfaction in the third party voter.

 

[Ikari]

Re: Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppressionâ€

Perhaps another demagogue? That seems to be the "better candidate."

What a long slog, election after election claiming the Democrats needed to put up a better candidate as a demagogue tears the country apart. All for enabling self-satisfaction in the third party voter.

I actually think both sides need to be putting up higher quality candidates.

I'm sorry....do you have a problem with the Main Party needing to put up higher quality candidates?

lol

Oligarchs man.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Re: Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppressionâ€

I actually think both sides need to be putting up higher quality candidates.

I'm sorry....do you have a problem with the Main Party needing to put up higher quality candidates?

lol

Oligarchs man.

Voters in the Democratic primary select the democratic nominee. Republican voters do the same of their party.

 

[Logophile]

Re: Dems get Green Party kicked off ballot after pressuring petition-signers; ‘voter suppressionâ€

We are at the point now that some people, like Perot, are so rich, they can finance a third party run. But they can't build a sustainable third party, and probably aren't interested in doing that.

Like the third party voter, it's more about the person doing it than it is about the process itself.

A tad cynical for me, albeit I agree that personal wealth is a big plus in an independent run. We can't change the two party system as it stands from "within" because the two party "oligarchs" - unfortunately the term is apt - will protect the two party system at all costs. I think it's important to realize that politics within our two warring factions is such a blood sport that it's very, very hard to find reasonable, competent, and more importantly, altruistic people that want to put themselves or their families through it. Most of the press is ruthless, petty and inhumane; and the pursuit of money now is as savage as a prehistoric hunting expedition. That said, the majority of Americans are not comfortable with our societal situation. And that's a good thing. It will take a little time, but my guess is, when the right person emerges, he or she will be so embraced by the majority that it will stun the two party elites. I think it's coming, probably within a decade. Americans are starting to realize that all human beings have flaws and have a past, so as we march on, Americans are maturing. A perfect example of this, is that despite all the best efforts by the press to smear Trump and cast him as some degenerate, he has stayed afloat. Primarily, that is because so many understand that he is human. His gallivanting as a young man, and the mores he reflected then were the mores of the time, not very nice to women, but we're getting better in that regard. Americans are getting it. We're evolving. That said, I foresee the next four to eight years as a very precarious time for America, and a time full of uncomfortable vitriol, violence and great trial. Nevertheless, out out of it, will come a few rare people that Americans will gladly support, and those people will be independent, and navigate us rationally out of our tumultuous times. I'm seeing glimmers of hope all across the country. People are yearning for a better way. Thanks!!