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Demonstrations in Pakistan

Inuyasha

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INAYAT QALA, Pakistan - Thousands of angry Pakistanis protested Sunday against a U.S. airstrike that killed civilians, chanting "Long live Osama bin Laden!" as anti-American rallies in the country entered their second week.
About 5,000 demonstrators assembled on a dry riverbed in a mountain market town near the site of the Jan. 13 attack. Shouting pro-bin Laden, anti-American slogans, they burned effigies of U.S. President George W. Bush
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10972951/

When we do things like this all the good work goes down the tubes and the extremists seize on this. IMO to neutralize the effects the Bush administration should not be as silent as they have been and a few token heads (God knows there are enough of them) should role. Having the President of Pakistan deposed and losing the country as an ally is the last thing we need at this moment.
 

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

Inuyasha said:
INAYAT QALA, Pakistan - Thousands of angry Pakistanis protested Sunday against a U.S. airstrike that killed civilians, chanting "Long live Osama bin Laden!" as anti-American rallies in the country entered their second week.
About 5,000 demonstrators assembled on a dry riverbed in a mountain market town near the site of the Jan. 13 attack. Shouting pro-bin Laden, anti-American slogans, they burned effigies of U.S. President George W. Bush
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10972951/

When we do things like this all the good work goes down the tubes and the extremists seize on this. IMO to neutralize the effects the Bush administration should not be as silent as they have been and a few token heads (God knows there are enough of them) should role. Having the President of Pakistan deposed and losing the country as an ally is the last thing we need at this moment.




Once Bin-Laden is liquidated, ..IF he has not been already, & his corpse video'd it will put an end to that kind of hero worship, & perhaps be a very good teaching tool for future terrorists who lust to be a disingenuine "somebody" for the people.;)

Terrorists can run, ..but they cannot hide forever!
 

Inuyasha

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

Stu Ghatze said:
Once Bin-Laden is liquidated, ..IF he has not been already, & his corpse video'd it will put an end to that kind of hero worship, & perhaps be a very good teaching tool for future terrorists who lust to be a disingenuine "somebody" for the people.;)

Terrorists can run, ..but they cannot hide forever!
I don't think that Bin Laden or any other terrorist "figure" is the question here but more the rash of accidental bombing that are causing collateral damage. I think the article indicates that when this happens we lose people who might otherwise be sympathetic to us, the Pakistani government and our cause. It just drives them to the opposition. A demonstration of thousands is beyond terrorism. It's a whole other ballgame.

If you put yourself in their shoes you can see what is meant here. If some one drops bombs multiple times on you and your neighbors, even if they have your best interests at heart, you are not going to be happy having innocent American citizens and children killed by inaccurate information and military movements no matter what the price.

BTW I am sure many people on this board would be really surprised to know what your screen name really means.:Lol: :Lol: :Lol: I ain't telling.:smile:
 

Calm2Chaos

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

Theres an accident and there first reaction is to cheer for a terrorist... YA .. these cows are worth keeping... How bout we don't worry about appeasing the terrorist and the terrorist sympathisers in Pakistan. How is it we know were the guys is at but the people living next door to him don't seem to mind. These are the same waste of life that probably cheered when the towers went down.
 

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

Meh, that shiit'll buff out.
 

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

GySgt said:
Meh, that shiit'll buff out.
Or culminate into one or more radical anti-American fundamentalists who'se father was killed in the attack. Did we have permission from the Pakistani government to be conducting air strikes inside their borders?
 

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

Binary_Digit said:
Or culminate into one or more radical anti-American fundamentalists who'se father was killed in the attack. Did we have permission from the Pakistani government to be conducting air strikes inside their borders?

Yes. Do you know anything about the Pakistani government and its people? These people are already anti-American.

....and besides that, I said "meh."
 

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

Binary_Digit said:
Or culminate into one or more radical anti-American fundamentalists who'se father was killed in the attack. Did we have permission from the Pakistani government to be conducting air strikes inside their borders?
From what I understand we don't have any open permission to carry out any military operations inside of Pakistan. I think any operations have been carried out on a case by case basis.

I don't think that in a demonstration of say 8000 people that they are all terrorists or rabid fundamentalists. They are just unhappy with being bombed. But if they say nothing and it continues certainly a lot more will not take our side.

I think the media shluffs it off too simply. If 13 people and children were killed in some action in the US there would be hell to pay. To me a person's life is not worth more or less because of the country he or she comes from
 

Inuyasha

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

GySgt said:
Yes. Do you know anything about the Pakistani government and its people? These people are already anti-American.

....and besides that, I said "meh."
Are you telling me that all 162 million Pakistanis are anti-American and therefore we don't need to pay any attention to what any of them say or think? Or that since they are anti-American it is not worth any effort at all to change that? Seems pretty extreme if that's what you are advocating.
 

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

Inuyasha said:
Are you telling me that all 162 million Pakistanis are anti-American and therefore we don't need to pay any attention to what any of them say or think? Or that since they are anti-American it is not worth any effort at all to change that? Seems pretty extreme if that's what you are advocating.

We don't need to payt attention or appease the sympathizers though. It was one incident and it was unintentional. And there reaction is to rally around a man that initiates the killing of civilians intentionally all over the world. Seems to me the missle wasn't big enough to take out the terrorist that it was meant to.
 

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

Inuyasha said:
Are you telling me that all 162 million Pakistanis are anti-American and therefore we don't need to pay any attention to what any of them say or think? Or that since they are anti-American it is not worth any effort at all to change that? Seems pretty extreme if that's what you are advocating.

Of course not, but neither are all 162 million Pakistanis marching. The whole idea that these people must change and adapt to the 21st century demands that we allow them opportunities and our full respect. It's what I have have always typed.

What we have to keep in mind is that the Radical Islamic element has the ear of their fellow Muslims in all these countries. They are waging an IO war and they are currently winning. Radical Clerics have been able to convince countless Muslims that Bin Ladden's vision is of the purist and proudest Islamic form. This should be a huge warning flag to the west about the spiritual crisis in the Middle East and beyond. The citizens in Pakistan that are rallying already hate America. They already view the west as the enemy. It is public knowledge that Al-Queda members were the target, yet they still protest. This should send alarms off. Now this does not mean that they are violent towards us and it does not mean that they agree with terrorism. But what this does mean is that we are not just up against a handful of terrorists. These people are going to march, because we will not hesitate to take out a target. We cannot. Some fanatics will flock to the standard of terror, no matter what we do. But it’s far easier for Islamic societies to purge themselves of terrorists if the terrorists are on the losing end of the global struggle than if they’re allowed to become triumphant heroes to every jobless, unstable teenager in the Middle East and beyond. For now, we are going to have to do this by ourselves and without the help of "direct" host nation support in some countries - Pakistan being one. The Pakistani government wouldn't dare antagonize their Radical element, so we had to do it for ourselves. (Pakistan has not had their Bali yet.) I dare say that the French government would give us any trouble if they had an Al-Queda element within their borders. They would be all too happy to arrest and hand over. Muslim countries are not so susceptable to hand over fellow Muslims. However, this is changing - Jordan, Indonesia, Chad, and Saudi Arabia have started to do their parts in their local environments. It took the Bali bombings, a wedding bombing, American military targetting, and our part in the IO war.

...and by the way. This country is being held together by it's military - Gen. Pervez Musharraf's - not so much a "President."
 
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Inuyasha

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

Calm2Chaos said:
We don't need to payt attention or appease the sympathizers though. It was one incident and it was unintentional. And there reaction is to rally around a man that initiates the killing of civilians intentionally all over the world. Seems to me the missle wasn't big enough to take out the terrorist that it was meant to.
Of course we know from Neville Chamberland that appeasement is fatal and I am sure you can see that I am not suggesting that. I think, according to some sources, that this has far less to do with Bin Laden than it has to do with Pakistani pride and sovereignty. Naturally there are some supporters of Bin Laden and Islamic fundamentalism that are going to take advantage of this but that is a minority. We can win the alliance of the Pakistani people, which at this time we need. But it can't be done if border incidents continue to occur. This is the most serious one that has happened but it is by far not an isolated incident. Again I ask that you put yourself in the position of the other guy. That is not hard to do.

If an ally of ours (even a half hearted one) was fighting a war with Canada and they bombed Bellingham Washington the reaction here would be the same. To dismiss it flippantly as "just one incident" will not endear us to the Pakistani people. Such an attitude also unwittingly gives ammunition to those who would play the race card as "The Americans don't care about those people of color."

Any single incident is a potential powder keg. Just look at how the opposition allowed the Cindy Sheehan thing to get out of control when in reality it was only one of two thousand similar cases.
 

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

Inuyasha said:
Of course we know from Neville Chamberland that appeasement is fatal and I am sure you can see that I am not suggesting that. I think, according to some sources, that this has far less to do with Bin Laden than it has to do with Pakistani pride and sovereignty. Naturally there are some supporters of Bin Laden and Islamic fundamentalism that are going to take advantage of this but that is a minority. We can win the alliance of the Pakistani people, which at this time we need. But it can't be done if border incidents continue to occur. This is the most serious one that has happened but it is by far not an isolated incident. Again I ask that you put yourself in the position of the other guy. That is not hard to do.

If an ally of ours (even a half hearted one) was fighting a war with Canada and they bombed Bellingham Washington the reaction here would be the same. To dismiss it flippantly as "just one incident" will not endear us to the Pakistani people. Such an attitude also unwittingly gives ammunition to those who would play the race card as "The Americans don't care about those people of color."

Any single incident is a potential powder keg. Just look at how the opposition allowed the Cindy Sheehan thing to get out of control when in reality it was only one of two thousand similar cases.

Very true, but how was this matter "dismissed so flippantly?" It was publicly announced what the target was. We didn't just throw a dart on a map and send in a missile, nor did we carpet bomb the town. Much of the Muslim world does not care that the Muslims killed were Al-Queda. All they care about is that they were Muslim.

Our enemies in the “War on Terror” are men who believe, literally, that they are on a mission from God to destroy our civilization and, who regard death as a promotion, are not impressed by our morals and restrictions to remain civil. Everyone must be made aware that these men are not safe in their homes, not in churches or mosques, and not in foreign countries to which they might flee. We must find them; no matter how long it takes, and then kill them. Civillians must know that if they harbor or surround themselves with terrorist then they are in danger. Terrorist leaders use their relatives and neighbors as shields, and they die with them. Their deaths are the extremists fault, not America's. They will learn.


And again. You really got to know the politics of Pakistan and the state that it is in right now. While Pakistan has been wracked with phenomenal corruption and suffers from a ravaged education system that opened the door for the expansion of fundamentalist religious schools, and even though its economy is in shambles, this most-endangered state still has not strayed irretrievably into the extremist camp. We cannot push them away, but we cannot allow an Al-Queda element to take root either. And right now, we deal with a Pakistani Government that does not wish to "antagonize" their Radical element.
 
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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

GySgt said:
Very true, but how was this matter "dismissed so flippantly?" It was publicly announced what the target was. We didn't just throw a dart on a map and send in a missile, nor did we carpet bomb the town. Much of the Muslim world does not care that the Muslims killed were Al-Queda. All they care about is that they were Muslim.

Our enemies in the “War on Terror” are men who believe, literally, that they are on a mission from God to destroy our civilization and, who regard death as a promotion, are not impressed by our morals and restrictions to remain civil. Everyone must be made aware that these men are not safe in their homes, not in churches or mosques, and not in foreign countries to which they might flee. We must find them; no matter how long it takes, and then kill them. Civillians must know that if they harbor or surround themselves with terrorist then they are in danger. Terrorist leaders use their relatives and neighbors as shields, and they die with them. Their deaths are the extremists fault, not America's. They will learn.


And again. You really got to know the politics of Pakistan and the state that it is in right now. While Pakistan has been wracked with phenomenal corruption and suffers from a ravaged education system that opened the door for the expansion of fundamentalist religious schools, and even though its economy is in shambles, this most-endangered state still has not strayed irretrievably into the extremist camp. We cannot push them away, but we cannot allow an Al-Queda element to take root either. And right now, we deal with a Pakistani Government that does not wish to "antagonize" their Radical element.

Good Post !!!!!
 

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

GySgt said:
Very true, but how was this matter "dismissed so flippantly?" It was publicly announced what the target was. We didn't just throw a dart on a map and send in a missile, nor did we carpet bomb the town. Much of the Muslim world does not care that the Muslims killed were Al-Queda. All they care about is that they were Muslim.

Our enemies in the “War on Terror” are men who believe, literally, that they are on a mission from God to destroy our civilization and, who regard death as a promotion, are not impressed by our morals and restrictions to remain civil. Everyone must be made aware that these men are not safe in their homes, not in churches or mosques, and not in foreign countries to which they might flee. We must find them; no matter how long it takes, and then kill them. Civillians must know that if they harbor or surround themselves with terrorist then they are in danger. Terrorist leaders use their relatives and neighbors as shields, and they die with them. Their deaths are the extremists fault, not America's. They will learn.


And again. You really got to know the politics of Pakistan and the state that it is in right now. While Pakistan has been wracked with phenomenal corruption and suffers from a ravaged education system that opened the door for the expansion of fundamentalist religious schools, and even though its economy is in shambles, this most-endangered state still has not strayed irretrievably into the extremist camp. We cannot push them away, but we cannot allow an Al-Queda element to take root either. And right now, we deal with a Pakistani Government that does not wish to "antagonize" their Radical element.
I think we are all well aware that Musharraf is hardly representative of what we believe in but he is better than the alternative which obviously would be a theocracy unfriendly to the west. This is not the first time we have supported a military dictatorship either (Peron, Samoza, Chan Kai Skek, just to mention a few). My point is how ever is that such incursions over Pakistan's border just serve to fuel the radicals and help them gain more support among the Pakistani people. We made a promise to them not to do this then we went ahead and did it any way. This simply breeds mistrust in our policy. It is essentially what we did 100 years ago with the native Americans. Make promises then systematically break them. We could learn a bit from our own history.
 

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

Inuyasha said:
We made a promise to them not to do this then we went ahead and did it any way.
Did we? I confess I don't remember specifically, but my vague recollection is that we agreed to consult with them on any usage or incursions of their territory. In fact, we haven't seen an admission, and probably won't, but my guess would be that we 'consulted' with them on this as well. We most likely told them what we were going to do, at just about the time we did it (to avoid a leak from the Pakistani Intelligence Service), and tried to give Musharraf a way to save face.
 

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

oldreliable67 said:
Did we? I confess I don't remember specifically, but my vague recollection is that we agreed to consult with them on any usage or incursions of their territory. In fact, we haven't seen an admission, and probably won't, but my guess would be that we 'consulted' with them on this as well. We most likely told them what we were going to do, at just about the time we did it (to avoid a leak from the Pakistani Intelligence Service), and tried to give Musharraf a way to save face.
If you and I don't know then surely the Pakistani people do not either but if you read what they have been told you will see what I mean. Here is a good place to start. Some of the papers are in English and you may have to search the archives. I am still under the impression that we had a hands off policy with incursions into Pakistan unless specifically requested to aid them.
http://www.onlinenewspapers.com/pakistan.htm

In any event the people are mad and the situation what it is. Not as good as it could be. Flawed intelligence or whatever the reason. If infact they did ask us to go in but are not telling this to their people (which I seriously doubt) what does that say about their relationship with us? Either way it is not good.
 

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Re: Demonstartions in Pakistan

Inuyasha said:
I think we are all well aware that Musharraf is hardly representative of what we believe in but he is better than the alternative which obviously would be a theocracy unfriendly to the west. This is not the first time we have supported a military dictatorship either (Peron, Samoza, Chan Kai Skek, just to mention a few). My point is how ever is that such incursions over Pakistan's border just serve to fuel the radicals and help them gain more support among the Pakistani people. We made a promise to them not to do this then we went ahead and did it any way. This simply breeds mistrust in our policy. It is essentially what we did 100 years ago with the native Americans. Make promises then systematically break them. We could learn a bit from our own history.
The Pakistani government knows what happened. They do not want this Radical element in their country any more than we do. However, they are impotent to act. These terror groups that exist in all Mulsim populations work freely within these places. They do so with no fear of their host nations. This is the fear they have instilled. Their willingness to live with the fear of terror attacks is stronger than their courage to defy them publicly. They just aren't willing to endure the bloodshed it would take to rid themselves of it. But like I always say and like we are seeing..."It is far easier for Muslim nations to rid themselves of their Radical element if the terrorists remain on the losing side." The youthful futureless masses are not so quick to journey to the extremists camps if they know that it will just result in their deaths. (Most are not "divinely" suicidal.) As the Radical element gets weaker, the camps will close. (I'm not implying that just killing terrorists will do this. Much more non-combative tactics are necessary.)

We have learned. We have decided that allowing terror organizations to fester only allows it to gain momentum. It is simple. If Muslim governments are unable or unwilling to kill or arrest their Radical elements then we will do it in their absence. We cannot afford to allow "sovereignty" bound us from doing what is in our best interests. This is going to anger some. It is inevitable. Bold initiative always bring out the critics and the protesters. People are always using hindsight to criticize the government for not acting or not doing what should have been done. The events that are currently happening is us being proactive rather than reactive. Invading Afghanistan was reactive. A Radical Islamic element in Pakistan is very dangerous and allowing agents of Al-Queda to feel safe within those borders is a mistake. This is a rough time in our history and it will not end soon. There is going to be a lot of mistrust in our future. There is no way to fight this exponetially growing threat by ourselves without it. Until France, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Pakistan, and so many others have their "Bali or Jordan or London or New York," we will face this with very little support and with a lot of "mistrust."

The civillians that die will be tragic, but what is the alternative? Keep in mind that we deal with Muslim nations who do not wish to antagonize their Radical elements. Without intervention, when necessary, it will grow in these places and recruitment will be high. We've seen it.
 
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