• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Demonizing the poor

ricksfolly

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
2,236
Reaction score
232
Location
Grand Junction, CO 81506
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
All people want to work, do something that has meaning, it's the only way for them to have purpose, relevance, companionship, but many can't for a variety of reasons.

Mentally incompetent...

Can't understand extent of job, where responsibility starts and ends...

Can't get specific instructions and afraid to take a chance or ask the boss...

Can't adjust to bully bosses...

Sponges off their parents...

ricksfolly
 

Hoplite

Technomancer
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
3,779
Reaction score
1,077
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Not really seeing what you're getting at here.
 

Aunt Spiker

Cheese
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
28,431
Reaction score
16,987
Location
Sasnakra
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
No, ricks - all people do *not* want to work and have meaning in their life.

There are those who do - and are poor
And those who don't - and are poor.

And there are those who do - and aren't poor
And there are those who don't - and aren't poor, either.
 

Harry Guerrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
28,951
Reaction score
12,422
Location
Not affiliated with other libertarians.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Point is, as long as poor people are politically demonized, and too many people believe it, the poor will never get the help they desperately need.

ricksfolly

I think you've stereotyped poor people into being this great unwashed mass of people, who have all the hope in the world but just want something to eat.

That isn't reality.
 

ricksfolly

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
2,236
Reaction score
232
Location
Grand Junction, CO 81506
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
No, ricks - all people do *not* want to work and have meaning in their life.

There are those who do - and are poor
And those who don't - and are poor.

And there are those who do - and aren't poor
And there are those who don't - and aren't poor, either.

You at least have an open mind about it, bring a form of positive understanding to an overcharged political atmosphere.

ricksfolly
 

VanceMack

MSG Benavides TAB
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
74,777
Reaction score
31,510
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Point is, as long as poor people are politically demonized, and too many people believe it, the poor will never get the help they desperately need.

ricksfolly

Do you actually work with "the poor?" Have you ever worked with "the poor?" There are indeed SOME that are looking for opportunites to change their life and create a future for themselves...but not all, and certainly not 'most.' My experience is the great majority are quite comfortable rolling over on their back and peeing on themselves like puppies when the politicians come offering handout programs. The have bought into the 'victim' excuse and settled in quite comfortably. They create personally destructive environments and then bitch because they have 6 kids no food and 'have' to be on state assistance.

Assuming they are all poor cuz gosh darn it...life just isnt fair is akin to saying most felons are really just good people who when given an opportunity will change their lives.

Here on Earth, the sky is blue...not sure what color it is in your world...
 

hazlnut

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
11,963
Reaction score
3,543
Location
Naperville, IL
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
No, ricks - all people do *not* want to work and have meaning in their life.

There are those who do - and are poor
And those who don't - and are poor.

And there are those who do - and aren't poor
And there are those who don't - and aren't poor, either.

What would you say the percentage of each is in America, because I believe how individuals accurately or inaccurately characterize the typical 'person on welfare' or 'unemployed' tells a lot.

Work ethic/motivated + unemployed - lower income ?%
no work ethic/unmotivated + unemployed - lower income ?%

Work ethic/motivated + unemployed - middle income %?

Work ethic/motivated + employed - upper income %?
no work ethic/unmotivated - unemployed - upper income %?

What are your estimates of each - just ball park it.

Also, don't forget

no work ethic/unmotivated - employed - lower
no work ethic/unmotivated - employed - middle
no work ethic/unmotivated - employed - upper
 

Aunt Spiker

Cheese
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
28,431
Reaction score
16,987
Location
Sasnakra
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
What would you say the percentage of each is in America, because I believe how individuals accurately or inaccurately characterize the typical 'person on welfare' or 'unemployed' tells a lot.

Work ethic/motivated + unemployed - lower income ?%
no work ethic/unmotivated + unemployed - lower income ?%

Work ethic/motivated + unemployed - middle income %?

Work ethic/motivated + employed - upper income %?
no work ethic/unmotivated - unemployed - upper income %?

What are your estimates of each - just ball park it.

Also, don't forget

no work ethic/unmotivated - employed - lower
no work ethic/unmotivated - employed - middle
no work ethic/unmotivated - employed - upper

Don't know - I actually don't concern myself with trying to peg people into percentage holes. . . you can if you wish. But all I know is what I see and have experience with.

I know a lot of poor people and they hold a huge variety of work ethics: Some are on welfare and other forms of support for a variety of reasons (lack of education has left them without work options, health problems, even their spouse leaving them has left them hung out to dry) My ex husband is a good example of those who are just being lazy, having no concern for not *being* poor and thus are on assistance.
Yet others aren't on assistance of any type and would like to be but don't qualify due to various issues (like my cousin - felons can't get welfare assistance post felony convictions - even if they do change).
Yet others do work, but would be considered poor if they really cared to analyze things like that, but don't *feel* poor. (like my neighbors down the street - I don't think they'd really care what others think nor do they feel *bad* about their lifestyle).

At the same time I also have the 'rich lazy folks' in my family - Grandma, her sister, and their two children, all live on the family estate - they're drug addicts and all in poor health - but very wealthy because someone *else* had very good work ethics and personal values.

:shrug:

Everyone's different: Some people couldn't care less about working or being self-supportive, others do.
 

hazlnut

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Messages
11,963
Reaction score
3,543
Location
Naperville, IL
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Don't know - I actually don't concern myself with trying to peg people into percentage holes. . . you can if you wish. But all I know is what I see and have experience with.

That's called anecdotal evidence.

I know a lot of poor people and they hold a huge variety of work ethics: Some are on welfare and other forms of support for a variety of reasons (lack of education has left them without work options, health problems, even their spouse leaving them has left them hung out to dry) My ex husband is a good example of those who are just being lazy, having no concern for not *being* poor and thus are on assistance.
Yet others aren't on assistance of any type and would like to be but don't qualify due to various issues (like my cousin - felons can't get welfare assistance post felony convictions - even if they do change).
Yet others do work, but would be considered poor if they really cared to analyze things like that, but don't *feel* poor. (like my neighbors down the street - I don't think they'd really care what others think nor do they feel *bad* about their lifestyle).

At the same time I also have the 'rich lazy folks' in my family - Grandma, her sister, and their two children, all live on the family estate - they're drug addicts and all in poor health - but very wealthy because someone *else* had very good work ethics and personal values.

I think the point of the thread is that not everyone sees the distinctions you do. The 1980s version of the Welfare mom has become ingrained in certain peoples minds. Others don't understand the long term cost of poverty and crime to effected communities and states. Safety nets aren't just to make us sleep good at night.

I haven't seen recent stats, and I'm sure this number has gone down during the recession, but typically 70% of people who go on welfare or some form of assistance, get off within 6 month. Of course, some will argue they are kicked off, or just stop collecting, but reforms to things like unemployment insurance have generally been geared toward greater efficiency--fair and reasonable caps, etc.
 

ricksfolly

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
2,236
Reaction score
232
Location
Grand Junction, CO 81506
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I think you've stereotyped poor people into being this great unwashed mass of people, who have all the hope in the world but just want something to eat.

That isn't reality.

Hunger and no place to sleep out in cold winters are about as real as you can get. That is why I give five dollars to homeless people every time I see one on the streets, not to judge nor enable them, but to savor that rare moment of feeling good about myself.

Actually, I Rarely see one nowadays. The last time was over a year ago.

ricksfolly
 

ricksfolly

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
2,236
Reaction score
232
Location
Grand Junction, CO 81506
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Don't know - I actually don't concern myself with trying to peg people into percentage holes. . . you can if you wish. But all I know is what I see and have experience with.

I know a lot of poor people and they hold a huge variety of work ethics: Some are on welfare and other forms of support for a variety of reasons (lack of education has left them without work options, health problems, even their spouse leaving them has left them hung out to dry) My ex husband is a good example of those who are just being lazy, having no concern for not *being* poor and thus are on assistance.
Yet others aren't on assistance of any type and would like to be but don't qualify due to various issues (like my cousin - felons can't get welfare assistance post felony convictions - even if they do change).
Yet others do work, but would be considered poor if they really cared to analyze things like that, but don't *feel* poor. (like my neighbors down the street - I don't think they'd really care what others think nor do they feel *bad* about their lifestyle).

At the same time I also have the 'rich lazy folks' in my family - Grandma, her sister, and their two children, all live on the family estate - they're drug addicts and all in poor health - but very wealthy because someone *else* had very good work ethics and personal values.

:shrug:

Everyone's different: Some people couldn't care less about working or being self-supportive, others do.

The point you seem to be missing is these are people, just like you and me. Treating them like garbage, just because they don't fit your particular self-serving philosophy, is cruel and uncivilized.

ricksfolly
 

Aunt Spiker

Cheese
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
28,431
Reaction score
16,987
Location
Sasnakra
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
The point you seem to be missing is these are people, just like you and me. Treating them like garbage, just because they don't fit your particular self-serving philosophy, is cruel and uncivilized.

ricksfolly

Well - I don't treat or think of them that way so I take it you're applying that "you" very generally.
 

VaiT

Banned
Joined
Oct 3, 2010
Messages
23
Reaction score
1
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
I'm absolutely weeping, Rick.

Absolutely weeping.
 

Aunt Spiker

Cheese
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Messages
28,431
Reaction score
16,987
Location
Sasnakra
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Moderate
*sniffs the bait*

VaiT obvious has been around more than his 3 posts :)
 
Top Bottom