Democrats simply will not learn ...

[Cardinal]

Again, a reminder for those who remember paying off their student loans fifty, forty, thirty or even twenty years ago. Your experiences are not the experiences of students today.

 

[Cardinal]

These appear to be strong arguments against the idea.

They're actually pretty bad arguments because they don't even acknowledge the existence of the students who have these debts. And without the students as the subject of the discussion, it makes you wonder how this topic would exist in the first place.

Another problem (not addressed in the article) was the precedent that this would likely establish - (at least) $10K of ‘canceled’ student debt then would (likely) become a gift. How can this be “fairly” limited to only student borrowers who incurred their student debt before the mid-term elections?

 

[Buckeyes85]

You'll get no argument from most of us on the right that when the Republicans are in charge they behave far too much like Democrats.

Having agreed with you on 2 points: no student loan forgiveness and both parties spend too much, I'm heading out to buy a lottery ticket as I'm feeling pretty lucky. Maybe a 12 pack, too? It's noon somewhere, right?

 

[ttwtt78640]

They're actually pretty bad arguments because they don't even acknowledge the existence of the students who have these debts. And without the students as the subject of the discussion, it makes you wonder how this topic would exist in the first place.

You seem to have ignored that student loan (re)payments and interest accrual have been ‘paused’ for over two years.

 

[Cardinal]

You seem to have ignored that student loan (re)payments and interest accrual have been ‘paused’ for over two years.

Paused. Not canceled.

C'mon.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Paused. Not canceled.

C'mon.

OK, but those ‘savings’ should not be ignored. If I was allowed not to repay my loan(s) for over two years then I could certainly better afford to do so when those obligations resumed.

 

[Cardinal]

OK, but those ‘savings’ should not be ignored. If I was allowed not to repay my loan(s) for over two years then I could certainly better afford to do so when those obligations resumed.

See post 51.

 

[ElChupacabra]

1. How does that move the debt to the tax payer, and
2. What of the students who suffer far more crippling student debt than anybody here has experienced and can imagine?
3. Canceling that debt is good for everyone. That debt is partly responsible for a shrinking middle class. Part of what makes a middle class is a home and retirement, and the money that could go to those things go to student debt instead. And a healthy middle class is good for the country overall.

And again, remember, their student debt is nothing like what you experienced. They're completely different universes.

With this I agree entirely. I was fortunate to be able to pay for college without accumulating any debt in part by help from my parents, and working nights. The costs of college have gone up to the point where this can be much more difficult for students now versus even a couple of decades ago. What I think is missing is a solution for making college more accessible, because drawing down debt without it just keeps the cause of debt going indefinitely.

 

[Buckeyes85]

Again, a reminder for those who remember paying off their student loans fifty, forty, thirty or even twenty years ago. Your experiences are not the experiences of students today.

View attachment 67388263

That's a fair point.
My wife and I both went to Ohio State, and graduated with 10k in student loans. Seemed like a lot of money at the time, but of course was not. We were fortunate to be able to pay for our kids' college. But had we not, the debt would have been terrible

That said, I also agree with those who question "do our kids really have to get a college degree, and saddle themselves with taht debt, in order to be successful?"

For better or worse, at present the answer is generally "yes."

 

[Cardinal]

With this I agree entirely. I was fortunate to be able to pay for college without accumulating any debt in part by help from my parents, and working nights. The costs of college have gone up to the point where this can be much more difficult for students now versus even a couple of decades ago. What I think is missing is a solution for making college more accessible, because drawing down debt without it just keeps the cause of debt going indefinitely.

Agreed. As I said, Biden is just using the tools available to him. Large institutional fixes require legislation, and that ain’t happening with the current makeup.

 

[bongsaway]

They don't care about inflation, because their entire platform is based on promising free stuff from the government in exchange for votes.

Do you guys ever get tired of telling each other this kind of thing? Have you heard the election was stolen from trump in 2020? If you haven't, it's true, spread the word.

 

[Cardinal]

That's a fair point.
My wife and I both went to Ohio State, and graduated with 10k in student loans. Seemed like a lot of money at the time, but of course was not. We were fortunate to be able to pay for our kids' college. But had we not, the debt would have been terrible

Your loan debt was the cost of a new car. What you can see is that, typically speaking, the people most hostile to student debt cancellation are the people who have this frame of reference.

That said, I also agree with those who question "do our kids really have to get a college degree, and saddle themselves with taht debt, in order to be successful?"

For better or worse, at present the answer is generally "yes."

For sure, people can get more useful degrees, but that’s another matter.

 

[Phys251]

Notice that people who are opposed to student loan forgiveness tend to be the same ones who are hostile to higher education in the first place.

And, as @Cardinal pointed out, older generations--the same ones who pressured young people to go to college in the first place--tend to be out-of-touch about just how expensive even state schools are these days.

We need higher education reform, but punishing young people is not the way to do it.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Notice that people who are opposed to student loan forgiveness tend to be the same ones who are hostile to higher education in the first place.

And, as @Cardinal pointed out, older generations--the same ones who pressured young people to go to college in the first place--tend to be out-of-touch about just how expensive even state schools are these days.

We need higher education reform, but punishing young people is not the way to do it.

How is letting (selected?) people avoid repaying their student loan debt helping to reduce college costs?

 

[US&THEM]

Um, so we'd spending $10k in tax revenue to recoup what, $2.5k in tax revenue?

They’re not allowed to claim bankruptcy, the colleges and Universities all have benefited from guaranteed federally backed money for their attending students.

Wall Street profits from the massive college endowments and the student loans have made these colleges into monsters

 

[Cardinal]

How is letting (selected?) people avoid repaying their student loan debt helping to reduce college costs?

It isn’t. But this is the tool available to the President. If you want large institutional fixes, help Democrats to keep control of the House and put two more Progressives in the Senate.

 

[ttwtt78640]

It isn’t. But this is the tool available to the President. If you want large institutional fixes, help Democrats to keep control of the House and put two more Progressives in the Senate.

OK, so don’t do it.

 

[Cardinal]

OK, so don’t do it.

Rejected, for reasons I’ve already stated.

 

[Gateman_Wen]

We're not

But that is observably untrue in this very thread.

 

[NatMorton]

But that is observably untrue in this very thread.

You have much to learn.

Have a lovely day.

 

[Mr Person]

Without institutional fixes, the problem will recur. I'd bet it'd recur and be more severe, seeing as people heading towards college would be very likely to think "oh, I can just get my debt canceled once I graduate." Then would come the next round of demands for loan forgiveness.

What then?

Well, we could say "tough luck", in which case the whole experiment would be to arbitrarily provide debt relief to one group of people while screwing over those before and after.

Or we could build a debt relief carousel, in which case we would have successfully created the least efficient means of providing upper education possible.



I'm not all that much of a fan of the idea. (Gut response to images of people who look like they just graduated college holding signs demanding that their debt be paid off doesn't help; it looks like they spent the last four years planning to demand it).

What I'd be much happier about paying for is a much more extensive govermental investment in trade schools and upper education. Europe manages to do this much better than we in any number of ways. One needn't attend a top university with all the bells and whistles.

(Which gets to another gut response that rubs me the wrong way: thinking of all my classmates who chose to attend an in-state state school because they just couldn't make the numbers work. They did it the right way. And they are now being asked to relieve (or more accurately, sign their own children up to relieve) debts of someone who borrowed a ton to go t a fancy private school, and ended up majoring in something(s) that simply does not provide a realistic path to paying off that debt).



At very least, if they have to do it I'd want to see it more targeted towards people doing work that benefits the public in some way. Teachers, for example).

 

[Mr Person]

And I should've appended: it would intensify the student loan - skyrocketing tuition thing. If universities know we're actually going to relieve the debt of students that can't pay, they have even more incentive to push loans as aggressively as possible.



In my ideal world, we'd have a robustly-funded and properly-run public higher education system, with very low tuition for those who can afford it, and a free pass if a person really cannot. This, coupled with an alternative public trade school system. Yes, funded by taxes, not more borrowing. Simultaneously, end public loans for people attending private university. In the long run, I'd bet it pays off. And in any event, it'd be less wasteful than this patchwork of loan programs that private universities leech off, putting mythical vampires to shame.

The problem is..... that only works if it's done honestly, and run honestly. I would seriously worry about Republicans who hate public education and seem to think that government is inherently bad getting into enough power again to run things. And they will. At which point, they could easily turn the ideal situation into a worse nightmare: deliberately run the public system into the ground but do nothing about restarting loans, and basically leave the less-well off screwed out of the possibility of higher education.

I'd still much rather try that then doing a one-time payoff. It'd be akin to switching to universal healthcare.



On that note, imagine proposing a one-time payoff of all medical debt, whether for elective procedures or necessary ones, without switching to universal healthcare. Would that really sound like a good way to address our system? Show providers that they'd be stupid to not raise fees higher? Nah...we need to deal with institutional changes. Otherwise we're just funneling more money to bad actors, arbitrarily benefiting one group of people but not others.

 

[OrphanSlug]

1. How does that move the debt to the tax payer, and

If you do not know the answer to that question then we have an immediate problem. If the holder of debt has that listed as an asset then all of a sudden throws that debt away it immediately changes the column that was sitting in. Think accounting. You literally spend right into higher levels of deficit overnight as revenue declines immediately.

2. What of the students who suffer far more crippling student debt than anybody here has experienced and can imagine?

What about them? I get the 'feel good' aspect to this but what about all the conditions that made this mess possible? You refuse to acknowledge that then turn around and suggest everyone else has to answer your questions. It is intentionally dishonest and intentionally treating others in a manner different than the benchmarks you establish.

All you are advocating for is forgiveness for one immediate group, with a fiscal consequence you cannot avoid no matter how clever you think you are, and yet you are answerless as to what to do about the real issues.

3. Canceling that debt is good for everyone. That debt is partly responsible for a shrinking middle class. Part of what makes a middle class is a home and retirement, and the money that could go to those things go to student debt instead. And a healthy middle class is good for the country overall.

And again, remember, their student debt is nothing like what you experienced. They're completely different universes.

That is not a universal truth, depending on what the conditions are of economic fault placing more money in the economy at velocity could impact inflation even worse.

 

[NatMorton]

"Canceling that debt is good for everyone."

Easily the dumbest thing that will be posted in this thread today.

 

[Cardinal]

If you do not know the answer to that question then we have an immediate problem. If the holder of debt has that listed as an asset then all of a sudden throws that debt away it immediately changes the column that was sitting in. Think accounting. You literally spend right into higher levels of deficit overnight as revenue declines immediately.



What about them? I get the 'feel good' aspect to this but what about all the conditions that made this mess possible? You refuse to acknowledge that then turn around and suggest everyone else has to answer your questions. It is intentionally dishonest and intentionally treating others in a manner different than the benchmarks you establish.

All you are advocating for is forgiveness for one immediate group, with a fiscal consequence you cannot avoid no matter how clever you think you are, and yet you are answerless as to what to do about the real issues.



That is not a universal truth, depending on what the conditions are of economic fault placing more money in the economy at velocity could impact inflation even worse.

I've been very up front and clear that long term fixes require legislation. That's a fine point, but it's moot because that's not going to happen, for reasons I've already made clear. Therefore, the short term fix is the one that's available to the President at this time.

Are you really questioning the value to our country of a healthy middle class?