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Democrats better not back down

CriticalThought

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Facts:
1. Trump owned the shut down in his own words on camera.
2. The Senate passed a clean budget resolution before this all started.
3. The only reason Trump changed his mind was conservative media complained and made him worried he would lose supporters.
4. They already agreed on over a billion for border fencing/security and illegal border crossing has dropped steadily since 2007 by 80%. There is little evidence to justify the need for more funds.
5. He couldn't get it done after the 2016 election when he had majorities in both houses of Congress even after being offered a deal by the Democrats to fully fund his wall in exchange for a path to citizenship for the Dreamers.
6. Half of the illegal population is from visa overstays, not border crossings. Better border protection alone is a piss poor way of reforming the immigration system if you are serious about curtailing illegal immigration.
7. Trump and his supporters want a blank check for a undefined "wall". I doubt they would give such a check to Obama without finding out exactly how the tax dollars will be spent, particularly with a president who has not divested himself of his own private business interests.
8. This whole thing was supposed to be paid for by the windfall from a new NAFTA deal with Mexico. That was his campaign pledge that he ran on, not making the taxpayer foot the bill.

The wall is a scam. It is nothing but a political symbol. There has always been bipartisan support for border protection. It isn't Democrats playing semantics, it is Trump and his supporters because they know they are losers and they need this symbolic win to feel like they got their way. They don't really care about illegal immigration, because if they did they would want to reform the system, not have a pissing contest with the lives of government employees, which includes thousands of veterans, because a wall sounds good to them.
 
I never doubt the Dems ability to collapse like a house of cards.

;)

As time progresses though, they'll need to continue providing alternatives to border security and immigration policy that shows they aren't being obstinate. The funding for border security originally provided is a start, but on the policy front is where both parties get a bit flakey.
 
I saw Pelosi march the ACA through a political & public relations minefield. Obama had let it nearly slip-away, and it was looking like it would slide-off into oblivion. But Pelosi, through shrewdness & tenacity, resurrected it and rammed it through. And she very nearly got the Public Option, but for Lieberman's vote.

She is a shrewd tactician, and currently the best vote counter in Congress. I do not see her "backing down". But she may cut a deal that extracts concessions from Trump, and gets her an overall win. But she will not "lose". There's a reason why Repubs hate & demonize her. She's effective!

I predict Trump is going to be in for the fights of his life. He's already flailing-around, threatening to shut-down the border & trade with Mexico. I hope the Dems stay calm and mostly out-of sight, allowing him to continue his public spectacles. When your opponent is struggling and flailing, don't help him! Let him continue!
 
I never doubt the Dems ability to collapse like a house of cards.

;)

As time progresses though, they'll need to continue providing alternatives to border security and immigration policy that shows they aren't being obstinate. The funding for border security originally provided is a start, but on the policy front is where both parties get a bit flakey.
Come Jan 3rd, Pelosi will start fliring-off bills to the Senate, leaving the Republican Senate or Trump to obstruct them. The GOP (via the Senate) will be in the hotseat. They will either take the heat, putting them in a precarious position again in 2020, or the will pass the heat on to Trump. She will tie the GOP to Trump & the shutdown. They will have to defend every decision to stop the funding and other bills they are sent.

In the end, I believe she will prevail legislatively, and politically. I just don't see a Trump win here. He seems to have gotten himself into a hole, with no exit strategy. As usual, for his impetuous nature.
 
Facts:
1. Trump owned the shut down in his own words on camera.
2. The Senate passed a clean budget resolution before this all started.
3. The only reason Trump changed his mind was conservative media complained and made him worried he would lose supporters.
4. They already agreed on over a billion for border fencing/security and illegal border crossing has dropped steadily since 2007 by 80%. There is little evidence to justify the need for more funds.
5. He couldn't get it done after the 2016 election when he had majorities in both houses of Congress even after being offered a deal by the Democrats to fully fund his wall in exchange for a path to citizenship for the Dreamers.
6. Half of the illegal population is from visa overstays, not border crossings. Better border protection alone is a piss poor way of reforming the immigration system if you are serious about curtailing illegal immigration.
7. Trump and his supporters want a blank check for a undefined "wall". I doubt they would give such a check to Obama without finding out exactly how the tax dollars will be spent, particularly with a president who has not divested himself of his own private business interests.
8. This whole thing was supposed to be paid for by the windfall from a new NAFTA deal with Mexico. That was his campaign pledge that he ran on, not making the taxpayer foot the bill.

The wall is a scam. It is nothing but a political symbol. There has always been bipartisan support for border protection. It isn't Democrats playing semantics, it is Trump and his supporters because they know they are losers and they need this symbolic win to feel like they got their way. They don't really care about illegal immigration, because if they did they would want to reform the system, not have a pissing contest with the lives of government employees, which includes thousands of veterans, because a wall sounds good to them.

Excellent points, but one could even stop at #1. Trump owns this shutdown. He said it on camera. I know his bleating followers will try to blame this on the Democrats, and fake nooz, and the Media, and all that. But most people in this country are not that stupid. No matter what Trump and his Guyana-like followers say, this is on him, no ifs and or butts.

Besides, Mexico is paying for that wall. I heard Trump promise it over and over and over again.
 
You cave when you have the weaker hand. The Dems do not.

More Americans blame Trump for government shutdown
NEW YORK/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - More Americans blame President Donald Trump than congressional Democrats for the partial U.S. government shutdown, according to a Reuters/Ipsos poll released on Thursday, as the closure stretched into its sixth day with no end in sight.

Forty-seven percent of adults hold Trump responsible, while 33 percent blame Democrats in Congress, according to the Dec. 21-25 poll, conducted mostly after the shutdown began. Seven percent of Americans blamed congressional Republicans.

The shutdown was triggered by Trump’s demand, largely opposed by Democrats and some lawmakers from his own Republican Party, that taxpayers provide him with $5 billion to help pay for a wall that he wants to build along the U.S.-Mexico border. Its total estimated cost is $23 billion.

Just 35 percent of those surveyed in the opinion poll said they backed including money for the wall in a congressional spending bill. Only 25 percent said they supported Trump shutting down the government over the matter.
 
Facts:
1. Trump owned the shut down in his own words on camera.
2. The Senate passed a clean budget resolution before this all started.
3. The only reason Trump changed his mind was conservative media complained and made him worried he would lose supporters.
4. They already agreed on over a billion for border fencing/security and illegal border crossing has dropped steadily since 2007 by 80%. There is little evidence to justify the need for more funds.
5. He couldn't get it done after the 2016 election when he had majorities in both houses of Congress even after being offered a deal by the Democrats to fully fund his wall in exchange for a path to citizenship for the Dreamers.
6. Half of the illegal population is from visa overstays, not border crossings. Better border protection alone is a piss poor way of reforming the immigration system if you are serious about curtailing illegal immigration.
7. Trump and his supporters want a blank check for a undefined "wall". I doubt they would give such a check to Obama without finding out exactly how the tax dollars will be spent, particularly with a president who has not divested himself of his own private business interests.
8. This whole thing was supposed to be paid for by the windfall from a new NAFTA deal with Mexico. That was his campaign pledge that he ran on, not making the taxpayer foot the bill.

The wall is a scam. It is nothing but a political symbol. There has always been bipartisan support for border protection. It isn't Democrats playing semantics, it is Trump and his supporters because they know they are losers and they need this symbolic win to feel like they got their way. They don't really care about illegal immigration, because if they did they would want to reform the system, not have a pissing contest with the lives of government employees, which includes thousands of veterans, because a wall sounds good to them.

I agree, the Democrats better not blink. If they do it better be to exact some concession from Republicans not appease Trump. I believe what caused Trump to flip when he was ready to sign was a visit from Mark Meadows and Jim Jordan of the house Freedom Caucus. They urged him to fight and he was convinced. I think Republicans care deeply about illegal immigration for the simple reason that they believe immigrates both legal and illegal mean Democrat votes. They want to stop demographic changes in the country and increased Democrat votes from immigration. Illegal immigrants don't vote but once immigrants become naturalized they tend to vote Democrat. This administration is trying to sharply curtail all immigration not just illegals. They are quietly trying to deport as many naturalized citizens as they can for the flimsiest of reasons.
 
Democrats better not back down

i agree. no taxpayer funding for the great wall of derp ever. shut down the government until the next election if that's what it takes. the dumbass said that Mexico will pay for his ego wall, so this should not be an issue in the first place.
 
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