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Democratic Party Should Pay Reparations

snip...

It all has to do with race relations, and it seems we are primarily focused on race relations between black folks and white folks, although too much focus on black/white race relations alone is itself trouble.

snip...
We are just getting started with the reparations talk. The reparations to the black community will be nothing compared to the reparations to "women" (once a universal definition of "woman" is made) for all that they have suffered under the patriarchy. Considering the patriarchy goes back as far as the birth of Homo Sapiens around 200,000 years ago. Damn, that will be a lot of reparations. Just for the record, I now identify as a trans gay black woman who votes democrat for the purpose of reparations. Right after we pay each "woman" of the world about a trillion USD in reparations, then we will have to pay the homosexuals for all they have suffered, and then the trans community. After the trans reparations I suspect there will be reparations for democrats who have suffered TDS. I'm gonna' be so rich!
 
Earlier in this thread I tried to open that door about where this whole reparations idea may go once the precedent had been set by what I guess is now law in California. Has that actually been signed into law?

Anyway, I sensed an uneasiness in some response(s) to the idea that we could see the reparations idea get out of control. Well, there may have been one or two responses where it was suggested I was a complete fool for bringing that up.

And let me use this post to get to something else that I recently had time to take a closer look at; that is it was on the list in my notes.

< < < Changing to subject 2. > > >

Some community member stated something like I was offering up a dead horse, or something like that.

But it seems interesting that race relations seems to be a common fixture on media sites, even in Japan to a lesser degree than in the U.S. NHK (for example) sometimes feeds us bits of news from the U.S. and I think the two major parties in the U.S. are purposely focusing a lot of energy on which one can prove the worst racism by the other party.

We've seen that in this thread. How the Republican Party is now the worst racist group, etc.

If this were a dead horse issue we wouldn't be seeing race relations issues plastered all over the news sites so often. But maybe that idea that this is a dead horse issue really means that a person making that statement has already decided who is a racist and to what degree and for how long and all that goes with that horse. That is one heck of an overburdened horse, and it could very well die from such a load, which would be great.

Now didn't that Martin Luther King Jr. fella state something about all skin colors could/should be equal in all things. *Something like that. Maybe I better go get a quote.) The problem I see is that skin color issues (race relations) has become a kind of flag waving style for political parties/groups and each week/month/year the flags are bigger and more numerous. And I sincerely believe a whole bunch of that is simply political.

But all those new flags do not have a bunch of dead horses lying about under the flag poles. There is nothing dead about this issue, except if you have decided so because you've made up your mind and wish not to have to discuss it any further.

< < < Back to subject 1. > > >

Oh yes, and that idea of reparations for women is an interesting idea. Too bad I am so old now. If my wife some thirty years ago had been given a reparations bunch of money way back when, I could have retired back then. We will really, really need all the AI and robots to work because with all that cash in our households there would be no need to work. Except I seem to remember something about the dangers of flooding an economy with bunches of cash. Maybe something about all prices climb so high, or something.

Heh, you could use gold so all women in all nations receive the same sort of currency and then gold would run out and that would make gold prices higher ... - - - Okay, I'll stop. Now I AM being stupid, aren't I?

< < < Going off-topic of this post. But still about money. Sorry. > > >

I was once taken to the company where Japan's paper money is printed and in some area there was this pile of a whole bunch of bills and my fellow worker told me it was some huge sum of money. He was taking me there for my first visit to that company where our firm did business. But it was one huge stack of money.
 
Medi, you will never see one MSM channel present the news without something that strikes the racism and abortion nerves in democrats. Those are the two issues that guarantee a lot of votes for them. Combined they are a dog whistle that just works. They know this wins them elections so they never actually do anything except make the two issues worse. In over 50 years why didn't democrats think to codify abortion rights? Because if they did then women might vote based on other matters. Why didn't Obama and many politicians before him do something about racism? Because they need the black community's votes and if racism was eliminated the black community might vote for conservative policies. Now being a leftist means not only supporting the two core issues, they have tacked on so many others that have to be vehemently supported as well, such as Climate Change, Ukraine, etc., etc.
 
Cancer is no fun. My first wife died of triple-negative breast cancer (she was 34 years old), as did my mom (who lived to the much riper age of 81). I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I hope you're able to get through it, and if not: I don't spend much time talking about my own life and especially my mystical pursuits, but I know from personal experience that death is not the end.

A wife-with-cancer situation is a serious bummer.

Actually, I've been wondering if management here would allow somebody to start a thread on this cancer stuff. This being primarily for political discussion had me with thoughts that the subject of cancer being discussed could be frowned upon. But I have only given the idea thought and haven't actually checked for medical related topics around here. Frankly, until it got me I had not given the overall subject of cancer enough thought. Almost a disrespectful style in my view when so many are nailed by this thing.

And I wanted to pull that out from your post and respond separately. The other parts I'll come back to for further study in a bit, I hope. I've got a construction crew doing some work I should sort of keep an eye on.
 
We are just getting started with the reparations talk. The reparations to the black community will be nothing compared to the reparations to "women" (once a universal definition of "woman" is made) for all that they have suffered under the patriarchy. Considering the patriarchy goes back as far as the birth of Homo Sapiens around 200,000 years ago. Damn, that will be a lot of reparations.
The rationale for reparations to descendants of slaves has been offered many different times on this forum by a variety of people, including at least two people in this very thread. However I'll repeat it again because it seems from this comment that you don't understand it:
1 > People including legal persons are responsible for their own actions
2 > Gross injustices (such as slavery) warrant compensation, both as a form of accountability for the perpetrator and as restitution towards the victims
3 > "Just wait until they're dead and leave their heirs much poorer" is never and has never been a legitimate approach to discharging either moral or monetary obligations
C> Hence in cases where a natural or legal person has perpetrated gross injustices, never been held meaningfully accountable, and especially when the victims (or their estates and hence heirs) remain demonstrably affected as a result, compensation at the least should obviously be due to them.

Your comments above seem to lack understanding on every single one of these points: By talking about events going back 200,000 years you fail to understand the responsibility of legal persons (such as the US government) for their own actions; by talking about the treatment of women generally over that period, you fail to understand that compensation for injustice would be due to the victims' estates/heirs (in other words, everyone who has a mother, grandmothers etc.); and while treatment of women in some times and places may have come close to it, by likening general historical patriarchy to the brutal institutional intergenerational chattel slavery of America's past you fail to understand anything much about injustice.



On the other hand, I have yet to see from @ashurbanipal and others why the same reasoning doesn't apply to the DNC or other organizations of the Democratic Party. I'm not sure on the specifics but I gather that at least some of its organizations are legal persons capable of owning property, being sued and so on, and therefore capable of being held accountable for their past actions. I'd actually been thinking of raising this very topic for a couple of months previous. The fact that the people who actively choose to associate themselves with that party today are different from the people who chose to do so in the past is no more relevant than the different generations of people who (tacitly or actively) choose to associate themselves with the US government - in either case, it's still an ongoing legal person which does not seem to have been held to meaningful account by its members. If the plight of those wronged by the governments or organizations isn't magically erased between generations, and if their own property holdings or laws or regulations or the like don't disappear between generations, why on earth would their moral or monetary obligations disappear between generations?
 
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I'm sure there are some major reasons but i guarantee it's not the students at fault.
You will find that some of your "very conservative" cohorts will disagree with you and will hold that it is because the students in those districts are "genetically inferior".
 
The rationale for reparations to descendants of slaves has been offered many different times on this forum by a variety of people, including at least two people in this very thread. However I'll repeat it again because it seems from this comment that you don't understand it:
1 > People including legal persons are responsible for their own actions
2 > Gross injustices (such as slavery) warrant compensation, both as a form of accountability for the perpetrator and as restitution towards the victims
3 > "Just wait until they're dead and leave their heirs much poorer" is never and has never been a legitimate approach to discharging either moral or monetary obligations
C> Hence in cases where a natural or legal person has perpetrated gross injustices, never been held meaningfully accountable, and especially when the victims (or their estates and hence heirs) remain demonstrably affected as a result, compensation at the least should obviously be due to them.

Your comments above seem to lack understanding on every single one of these points: By talking about events going back 200,000 years you fail to understand the responsibility of legal persons (such as the US government) for their own actions; by talking about the treatment of women generally over that period, you fail to understand that compensation for injustice would be due to the victims' estates/heirs (in other words, everyone who has a mother, grandmothers etc.); and while treatment of women in some times and places may have come close to it, by likening general historical patriarchy to the brutal institutional intergenerational chattel slavery of America's past you fail to understand anything much about injustice.

snip...
Just because someone has offered their rationale does not mean I have to accept it or agree with the solutions offered in the rationale. I also have my rationale and am entitled to it whether you think I am wrong or not. Moreover, rationales should be rational. Yes, people and their governments should be held responsible for their actions, but I don't think my great grandchildren should be responsible for my current government's actions today. That itself would be a gross injustice. Saying everyone in the present is equally guilty for things the government did 200 years ago is another gross injustice. I understand your need for virtue signaling, I just don't think it will ever amount to anything except a few likes on social media. This BS surrounding reparations is just going to lead to yet another gross injustice to deal with.
 
We are just getting started with the reparations talk. The reparations to the black community will be nothing compared to the reparations to "women" (once a universal definition of "woman" is made) for all that they have suffered under the patriarchy. Considering the patriarchy goes back as far as the birth of Homo Sapiens around 200,000 years ago. Damn, that will be a lot of reparations. Just for the record, I now identify as a trans gay black woman who votes democrat for the purpose of reparations. Right after we pay each "woman" of the world about a trillion USD in reparations, then we will have to pay the homosexuals for all they have suffered, and then the trans community. After the trans reparations I suspect there will be reparations for democrats who have suffered TDS. I'm gonna' be so rich!
And don't forget all the reparations that are due to the descendants of people who were murdered from the descendants of the people who did the murdering?

And, of course, there are all the reparations that are due to the descendants of the people who possessed the land in North America from the descendants of the people who took that land away from them by force.

In fact, if you added up all of the reparations that are due to everyone you'd probably have to sell of the entire United States of America (including chattels, fungibles, and "non-corporeal assets") several times over in order to pay them.

Maybe the solution is to simply mint around 336,609,917+ US$1,000,000,000,000,000 coins (an amount that most surely actually exceeds the actual liquidated value of the person's actual "claim for reparations") and give everyone one in full and final settlement of any and all claims whether known or unknown.

Of course, gas would probably cost at least US(Pt)$4,000,000,000,000,000.00 or US(Pap)$4.00 but it would shut down the whole thing once and for all.
 
Just because someone has offered their rationale does not mean I have to accept it or agree with the solutions offered in the rationale. I also have my rationale and am entitled to it whether you think I am wrong or not. Moreover, rationales should be rational.
My point is that if you want to be rational, then you need to actually address the arguments that other people are making to show that you coherently disagree. Talking about reparations for 200,000 years of patriarchy isn't just a weak slippery slope argument, it's a slippery slope on the wrong damn mountain range! It suggests a lot more about your own misunderstanding of the topic than about the actual issue of US government reparations.

Yes, people and their governments should be held responsible for their actions, but I don't think my great grandchildren should be responsible for my current government's actions today. That itself would be a gross injustice. Saying everyone in the present is equally guilty for things the government did 200 years ago is another gross injustice. I understand your need for virtue signaling, I just don't think it will ever amount to anything except a few likes on social media. This BS surrounding reparations is just going to lead to yet another gross injustice to deal with.
Again, you are suggesting that you simply don't understand the issue. No-one is saying that people today are responsible or guilty for things the government did 200 years ago, merely that the government is responsible for its actions and that responsibility doesn't magically disappear any more than its laws or its property holdings do. "Just wait until the victims die and leave their heirs much poorer" is never and has never been a legitimate approach to discharging moral or monetary obligations.

The obligations of people who tacitly or actively associate themselves with that government are purely in the form of taxes and the like, nothing to do with moral responsibility. No-one says that people who voted against Bush/Cheney and protested against invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq are morally responsible for those wars, and yet they had to pay taxes to carry them out regardless. Living in society and associating with a government carries with it many positives and some downsides, some obligations too. You don't get to pick and choose only the things you like about that association. But obviously as a voter you do get to contribute towards decisions of whether America will meaningfully stand for justice regarding her greatest domestic crimes at the least; or whether she will continue to sweep them under the rug, continue to evade accountability and amends, continue trying to paper over those cracks (as if the last 15 years weren't enough of a wake-up call that papering over the cracks simply hasn't worked). Very similar questions face other countries such as mine also - some of us sure would like America to start being a leader in something other than warfare for once.
 
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It is the Democratic Party of the United States that should be paying reparations for supporting slavery...
It's the United States of America that proclaimed by Special Field Order No. 15 that forty acres be given to freed slaves who should make good on their order, who should be paying reparations...
 
And don't forget all the reparations that are due to the descendants of people who were murdered from the descendants of the people who did the murdering?

And, of course, there are all the reparations that are due to the descendants of the people who possessed the land in North America from the descendants of the people who took that land away from them by force.

In fact, if you added up all of the reparations that are due to everyone you'd probably have to sell of the entire United States of America (including chattels, fungibles, and "non-corporeal assets") several times over in order to pay them.
You might also benefit from reading posts #305 and 309 to TearItAllDown. Displaying such a fundamental failure to understand the case for reparations simply undermines your own credibility, viciously hacking away at a strawman of the idea you oppose.

That said there certainly are some other instances in which a legitimate case for reparations might be made, injustices perpetrated by the legal person of the US government against identifiable victims with (depending on time elapsed) broadly identifiable heirs who have demonstrably suffered in consequence. Native Americans are an obvious example. So in that case - America's second worst domestic sin - and others like it, your argument seems to be something along the lines of "We must not advocate for justice in the case of black Americans, because if we do it might lead to demands for even more justice!" We must not demand accountability and amends for America's greatest domestic crime, because that raises the question of its lesser crimes also. We must not imprison the murderers, because we'll never be able to imprison all the thieves.

Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't seem like a particularly rational argument :unsure: Even if it were true that accountability and amends for every single instance of its wrongdoing is impossible or that it would bankrupt America (which you obviously haven't proven, or even coherently attempted to argue), how is that a reason to argue that no wrongdoing whatsoever should be addressed? That not even its greatest domestic crime should be addressed? The world is never going to be perfect, justice is never going to be perfect, governments are never going to be perfect; but it seems to me that people who are even minimally-interested in issues like justice and good governance should aim to address the greatest issues at the very least.
 
It's the United States of America that proclaimed by Special Field Order No. 15 that forty acres be given to freed slaves who should make good on their order, who should be paying reparations...
That would be an obvious starting point for the value of prospective reparations (which would amount to about $3.5 trillion dollars, around one-third of the black-white wealth gap), but there's no judicial case to be made from it. It would obviously have to be a legislative process, Americans themselves holding their government to a minimal standard of justice. I can't see any obvious reason why those who have actively chosen to associate themselves with the Democratic Party can't also hold their organization minimally accountable for its own sins. Such accountability and amends might - very questionably - happen one day in the case of the US government or some state governments; it pretty obviously won't happen in the case of former Confederate states' governments; I wonder if Democrats might hold their organization to a higher standard?

The tricky part would be working out what fraction of responsibility belongs to the Democratic Party itself as an organization, as opposed to the legislative actions of elected government representatives who were Democrats. But even a mere token gesture would be something, to forestall the obvious accusations of hypocrisy if nothing else.
 
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It's the United States of America that proclaimed by Special Field Order No. 15 that forty acres be given to freed slaves who should make good on their order, who should be paying reparations...
You do know that "Special Field Order No. 15" was NOT issued by "the government of the United States of America", don't you?

You do know that the government of the United States of America did everything in its power to avoid fulfilling the unauthorized promise made by an officer in the United States Army, don't you.

You do know that even the officer who issued the unauthorized "Special Field Order No. 15" didn't do very much to actually make sure that its "promise" was carried out, don't you?

You do know that almost all of the land that was "redistributed" in accordance with "Special Field Order No.15" was "reclaimed" by the government of the United States of America and returned to its original (formerly slave owning) owners, don't you?

Do you know what the "trade term" for
  • an unauthorized 'promise'
  • that no one actually works to deliver on in any significant manner
  • after the publicity of the first few days has been used up is
  • and for which any delivery is worked on to be reversed by the people who actually had the authority to make the 'promise'
  • but didn't
is?

It's "Political Propaganda BS" and that is what "Special Field Order No. 15" was.
 
You will find that some of your "very conservative" cohorts will disagree with you and will hold that it is because the students in those districts are "genetically inferior".
You couldn't be more wrong. A true Conservative is not racist. That is a lie of the left.

What makes you think Conservatives are racists? Is it because your hear it constantly so it makes you believe without actual reasons?
 
You might also benefit from reading posts #305 and 309 to TearItAllDown. Displaying such a fundamental failure to understand the case for reparations simply undermines your own credibility, viciously hacking away at a strawman of the idea you oppose.
You seem to think that I don't believe that the people who suffered (both directly and indirectly) from the effects of slavery (both when it was legal and when it wasn't) shouldn't be "made whole".

That is a misconception.

My position is simply that you can't do that merely by shoveling money off the back of the "Taxpayer Truck" and into the pockets of individuals, then pretending that you have "fixed the problem" the way that almost all "Reparations Activists" seem to want to do - especially when you have no way of determining how adversely they were affected by "slavery".

If a "generation" is 25 years, then there have been around 7 "generations since slavery was banned in the United States of America. Now you tell me how much in reparations "Bob" should get if his Great great great great great grandmother was a slave (who "passed" after the US Civil war, all of whose other forebearers were "White" except for his mother who was born to a "Black" couple whose parents and grandparents had been doctors in the UK.

For the sake of convenience you can assume that the average payout would be $100,000. (that would make the total payout equal to around $5,049,000,000,000).

Then you can tell me [1] where the $5,049,000,000,000 is going to come from and what "Bob" is going to do with his $781.25. Oh, yes, and should "Bob" be entitled to "reparations based on him being 50.78125% "Black" or for being 0.78125% "slave"?
That said there certainly are some other instances in which a legitimate case for reparations might be made, injustices perpetrated by the legal person of the US government against identifiable victims with (depending on time elapsed) broadly identifiable heirs who have demonstrably suffered in consequence. Native Americans are an obvious example. So in that case - America's second worst domestic sin - and others like it, your argument seems to be something along the lines of "We must not advocate for justice in the case of black Americans, because if we do it might lead to demands for even more justice!" We must not demand accountability and amends for America's greatest domestic crime, because that raises the question of its lesser crimes also. We must not imprison the murderers, because we'll never be able to imprison all the thieves.

Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't seem like a particularly rational argument :unsure: Even if it were true that accountability and amends for every single instance of its wrongdoing is impossible or that it would bankrupt America (which you obviously haven't proven, or even coherently attempted to argue), how is that a reason to argue that no wrongdoing whatsoever should be addressed? That not even its greatest domestic crime should be addressed? The world is never going to be perfect, justice is never going to be perfect, governments are never going to be perfect; but it seems to me that people who are even minimally-interested in issues like justice and good governance should aim to address the greatest issues at the very least.
I wouldn't object to any rational proposal for "reparations" that came coupled to an implementable plan for its effectuation.

So far, 99.99+% of the plans involve "Give 'Those People' a big chunk of case and tell them to shut up forever.". This is neither rational nor implementable.
 
It's the United States of America that proclaimed by Special Field Order No. 15 that forty acres be given to freed slaves who should make good on their order, who should be paying reparations...

Firstly, that stuff of splintering a sentence in a post isn't so cool, especially if the viewing public doesn't take the trouble or have the time to go look at the given post. I added a fair bit more thought to that sentence to start this thread. And the main thought was those first few decades right after the conflict. Let me do it for you:

It is the Democratic Party of the United States that should be paying reparations for supporting slavery after they became the party representing slave owners and then became the party after the civil war that tried to stop the reforms that would have allowed black folks in the United States to be on an equal footing with others in the nation.

As for the idea that the U.S. government should be paying reparations - - - well, that's interesting. I'd have to give that some thought.

But by the reasoning of some folks there aren't any of those same government officials around now ... well, it seems they would make the same claim about that Democratic Party is no longer responsible for past actions because of big changes in how they do things and stuff. We can use that same idea to cover all sorts of stuff and when referring to the forty acres of land they might say that was too long ago now for the U.S. government to be handing out land parcels or paying money for a broken promise.

That mule thing was because the Army had too many mules they no longer needed at the close of hostilities.
 
Are you comfortable with a party that embraces white nationalists in the 21st century?

I suppose you would consider it very clever to quote that without adding any information about why I wrote that. But it isn't very polite to folks that are in a hurry and reading through things and don't get the full picture of why I posted that.

And if you don't mind, (well, even if you do) I'm going to ignore your question.

EDIT: Okay, I'd be guilty of the same thing if I didn't add the sentence you quoted.
medi wrote:
And are you really comfortable with opening this door?
 
That would be an obvious starting point for the value of prospective reparations (which would amount to about $3.5 trillion dollars, around one-third of the black-white wealth gap), but there's no judicial case to be made from it. It would obviously have to be a legislative process, Americans themselves holding their government to a minimal standard of justice. I can't see any obvious reason why those who have actively chosen to associate themselves with the Democratic Party can't also hold their organization minimally accountable for its own sins. Such accountability and amends might - very questionably - happen one day in the case of the US government or some state governments; it pretty obviously won't happen in the case of former Confederate states' governments; I wonder if Democrats might hold their organization to a higher standard?

The tricky part would be working out what fraction of responsibility belongs to the Democratic Party itself as an organization, as opposed to the legislative actions of elected government representatives who were Democrats. But even a mere token gesture would be something, to forestall the obvious accusations of hypocrisy if nothing else.
I agree it would have to be a legislative process. I can't see any one political party being held responsible, as the parties have evolved so much since then. Regardless of which party was in power, whether controlled by liberals or conservatives at the time Special Order 15 was issued, it was issued by the United States after being approved by the president. Now as back then, when the US makes commitments, signs treaties, passes legislation, etc., it doesn't matter which party is in power.

Everyone knows that in reality as long as the Repub Party continues to control so much of our country, it doesn't matter who should pay for reparations, our country will never honor its commitment...
 
...
Again, you are suggesting that you simply don't understand the issue. No-one is saying that people today are responsible or guilty for things the government did 200 years ago, merely that the government is responsible for its actions and that responsibility doesn't magically disappear any more than its laws or its property holdings do. "Just wait until the victims die and leave their heirs much poorer" is never and has never been a legitimate approach to discharging moral or monetary obligations.
...
What I and TU Curmudgeon are seeing and you do not see is that this idea of reparations for past sins, especially more than 100 years ago is just not rational and feasible. And if you want the US to start this insanity so that other countries can follow, what you really want is the whole world to become so unstable and embroiled in hate. Germany should pay reparations to every living person in Europe, Russia and the US for the gross injustices of two world wars. Australia should pay for the gross injustices to the aborigines. Each and every country on the planet has performed some gross injustice. As for slavery, African tribes preyed on weaker tribes, captured them and sold them to European slave traders. Africa and Europe therefore should pay the reparations. But you are thinking like a social justice warrior and not logically, and think just the US should pay for the past sins of slavery. The whole world has to pay reparations. What our ancestors did in many ways was wrong. We can't change the past but we can change the present and the future. The best thing we can do is not repeat the mistakes of the past. Yet we do everyday. Reparations is not the solution the world needs.
 
Firstly, that stuff of splintering a sentence in a post isn't so cool, especially if the viewing public doesn't take the trouble or have the time to go look at the given post. I added a fair bit more thought to that sentence to start this thread. And the main thought was those first few decades right after the conflict. Let me do it for you:
You might want to actually read "Special Field Order No 15". If you do, you will note that
  • [1] it applies ONLY to a very limited area of land
    • The islands from Charleston, south, the abandoned rice fields along the rivers for thirty miles back from the sea, and the country bordering the St. Johns river, Florida, are reserved and set apart for the settlement of the negroes ... now made free by the acts of war and the proclamation of the President of the United States.
  • [2] the part that the "Proclamation of the President" refers to is the "freedom" of the negros (which is the actual term used in the document), and
    • now made free by the acts of war and the proclamation of the President of the United States.
  • [3] there was no "grant of 40 acres" but there was a grant of "no more than 40 acres"
    • so that each family shall have a plot of not more than (40) forty acres of tillable ground, and when it borders on some water channel, with not more than 800 feet water front,
  • [4] which wasn't actually "deeded to them" unless Congress got around to doing so
    • in the possession of which land the military authorities will afford them protection, until such time as they can protect themselves, or until Congress shall regulate their title.
(which, in almost all cases, Congress never did get around to doing).

While Mr. Lincoln did "approve" the order, he had no legal authority to seize private property without compensation and then give it away. Thus "Special Field Order #15 was NOT "approved" by the US government. "Special Field Order #15", in fact, violates that part of the Constitution of the United States of America which says "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, ..." and that part which says "... nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.".

As for the idea that the U.S. government should be paying reparations - - - well, that's interesting. I'd have to give that some thought.

But by the reasoning of some folks there aren't any of those same government officials around now ... well, it seems they would make the same claim about that Democratic Party is no longer responsible for past actions because of big changes in how they do things and stuff. We can use that same idea to cover all sorts of stuff and when referring to the forty acres of land they might say that was too long ago now for the U.S. government to be handing out land parcels or paying money for a broken promise.

That mule thing was because the Army had too many mules they no longer needed at the close of hostilities.
That "mule thing" referred to the lending of mules. Those mules were valuable commodities and would have been sold as surplus at auctions. Lending them to people actually saved the government money because the government no longer had to feed or care for them until they could be sold.
 
Okay, it seems I missed that "lending" part.

That "mule thing" referred to the lending of mules. Those mules were valuable commodities and would have been sold as surplus at auctions. Lending them to people actually saved the government money because the government no longer had to feed or care for them until they could be sold.

Obviously, I messed up on that point. I had thought the mules were completely turned over to individual persons or households. Now that it is on my mind I am not sure I remember if I had added that household factor into my thinking.
 
Okay, it seems I missed that "lending" part.



Obviously, I messed up on that point. I had thought the mules were completely turned over to individual persons or households. Now that it is on my mind I am not sure I remember if I had added that household factor into my thinking.
You also sort of overlooked that "Special Field Order #15" was unconstitutional.

It was, however, pretty good PR and had quite a beneficial effect in keeping "Those People" quiet (at least until they learned that no had any real intention of actually doing what they said they were going to do).
 
You also sort of overlooked that "Special Field Order #15" was unconstitutional.

It was, however, pretty good PR and had quite a beneficial effect in keeping "Those People" quiet (at least until they learned that no had any real intention of actually doing what they said they were going to do).

Actually, I am rather sure I made note in an earlier post a day or so ago that the whole '40 acres and a mule' found disfavor with many folks and it was brought to a halt. I was under the impression, though, that General Sherman had started the '40 acres and a mule' on his own initiative. So I've obviously made a few mistakes in the early stages of research. Actually, I know why that happened but that isn't meant as an excuse.

I'll get it all sorted out properly eventually, and all help is appreciated.

EDIT: And now I just took a look at your link. I forget where I sourced information about the program, but there sure does seem to be a difference between what I found and what is shown on that page where that links you posted takes us. Good. Appreciate the help.
 
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Actually, I am rather sure I made note in an earlier post a day or so ago that the whole '40 acres and a mule' found disfavor with many folks and it was brought to a halt. I was under the impression, though, that General Sherman had started the '40 acres and a mule' on his own initiative. So I've obviously made a few mistakes in the early stages of research. Actually, I know why that happened but that isn't meant as an excuse.

I'll get it all sorted out properly eventually, and all help is appreciated.

EDIT: And now I just took a look at your link. I forget where I sourced information about the program, but there sure does seem to be a difference between what I found and what is shown on that page where that links you posted takes us. Good. Appreciate the help.
You are simply experiencing the differences between the myths that are taught to innocent young school children and the reality of what actually happened.
 
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