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Democracy & Religion in America (1 Viewer)

Trajan Octavian Titus

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There is a point to be made about the separation of church and state, IE religion is more than just a belief in a devine being it is also a set and unbreakable code of morality now how is morality being taught in schools these days? Hint hint it isn't except ofcourse for perhaps an ethics class which generally teaches about ethical relativety rather than ethical absolutism IE if it's o.k. for a starving man to steal a loaf of bread to feed himself then why isn't it ok for a strung out man to steal money to feed his heroin addiction, or since it can be ethical to steal from the rich and give to the poor why wouldn't it be O.K. for a poor man to rob a bank? Well religion answers this question quite simply and absolutely "steal and go to hell," but I digress, it can be argued that when the SCOTUS ruled to place a wall between religion and the state and used incorporation to enforce it throughout the individual states and not just the Federal Government, they effectively ended the era of Biblical Republicanism upon which our entire country was founded. Toucqueville spells it out in his book "Democracy in America," using the example of Napolean's France that the reason why the American Republic was so successful while countless other attempts at Republican forms of government were quickly followed by tyrannies was because of our Christain Puritan roots he also argued for a separation of church and state but like the original intention he found it to mean freedom of religion not freedom from religion in that in France there was a greater antagonism between democrats and religious people.
" I have already said enough to put Anglo-American civilization in its true light. It is the product of two perfectly distinct elements which elsewhere have often been at war with one another but which in America it was somehow possible to incorporate into each other, forming a marvelous combination. I mean the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom. . . . Far from harming each other, these two apparently opposed tendencies work in harmony and seem to lend mutual support.
Religion regards civil liberty as a noble exercise of men's faculties, the world of politics being a sphere intended by the Creator for the free play of intelligence. Religion, being free and powerful within its own sphere and content with the position reserved for it, realized that its sway is all the better established because it relies only on its own powers and rules men's hearts without external support.
Freedom sees religion as the companion of its struggles and triumphs, the cradle of its infancy, and the divine source of its rights. Religion is considered as the guardian of mores, and mores are regarded as the guarantee of the laws and pledge for the maintenance of freedom itself."

Ofcourse it would be unthinkable to go back all the way to those roots, in that unethical concepts; such as, slavery and the subservience of women were, also, justified through religion, however, it would be just as unthinkable to sever our Christain/Judean roots completely.


Democracy & Religion in America
Tocqueville’s surprising linkage.

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[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]ecently the newspapers have burst with stories: Judges stripping the Ten Commandments from court-room walls and forbidding students in schools from pledging allegiance to our flag, and the republic for which it stands, "one nation, indivisible, under God."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]But what happens when religion is pulled out from the foundations of the republic? Alexis de Tocqueville reflected more deeply on the inherent weaknesses of democracy, stripped of religion, than anybody at the ACLU today.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Tocqueville began with a shocker: That the first political institution of American democracy is religion. His thesis went something like this: The premises of secular materialism do not sustain democracy, but undermine it, while the premises of Judaism and Christianity include and by inductive experience lead to democracy, uplift it, carry it over its inherent weaknesses, and sustain it.
By its own inherent tendencies, democracy tends to lower tastes and passions, to devolve into materialistic preoccupations, and to undercut its own principles by a morally indifferent relativism. Further, democracy left to itself tends to surrender liberty to the passion for security and equality, and thus to end in a new soft despotism, tied down with a thousand silken threads by a benign authority.
It was Christianity (drawing on Judaism) that established three necessary premises for modern democracy: the inherent dignity of each person, rooted in the freedom that makes each person an Imago Dei; the principle of the universal equality of all humans in the sight of God, whatever their natural inequalities; and the centrality of human liberty to the purposes and principles for which God created the cosmos.
In short, Christianity made the liberty of every individual before God the bright red thread of history, and its interpretive key. Underlying the chances of democracy, then, is its faith in the immortality of the human soul, which is the foundation of the concept of human rights and universal dignity. Lose this faith, and humans become harder and harder to distinguish from the other animals, and human rights become ever more difficult to define, defend, and uphold.
[On these three principles — dignity, equality, and liberty — John Locke equivocates. He sometimes seems to be arguing that his principles are antithetical to Christianity, and sometimes that they are consistent with a high and faithful reading of Christianity. His followers tend to be divided as to which side of this equivocation they support.]
In addition to these three founding premises, Tocqueville counts at least five other advantages that Judaism and Christianity bring to democracy.
First, Judaism and Christianity correct and strengthen morals and manners. While the laws of a free society allow a person to do almost anything, there are many things which religion prevents him from imagining or doing.
Second, fixed ideas about God and human nature are indispensable in the conduct of daily life, but daily life prevents most men from having time to work out these fixed ideas, and Christianity and Judaism present the findings of reason, tested in generations of experience, in forms that are clear, precise, intelligible to the crowd, and very durable. Moral clarity is a great gain in times of crisis.
Third, whereas democracy induces a taste for physical pleasures and tends to lower tastes, and thus weakens most people in their commitment to the high and difficult principles on which democratic life depends, religion of the Jewish and Christian type constantly point to that danger and demand that humans draw back, and attend to the fundamental things. Belief in immortality prods men to aspire upwards, and to aim for further moral progress along the line of their own dignity and self-government.
Fourth, faith adds to a morality of mere reason, whether of duty or utilitarian advantage, an acute sense of acting in the presence of a personal and undeceivable Judge, Who sees and knows even acts performed in secret. Thus faith adds to reason motives for doing things perfectly even when no one is looking; it gives reasons for painting the bottom of a chair, and in general for doing things as perfectly as possible. In this way, faith gives morals a personal dimension. A sin is not merely a failure to do one's duty, but in addition to that an injury to a person, who has extended the hand of friendship.
Fifth, in a democracy such as the United States, Tocqueville observes, religion does not direct the writing of laws or the formation of public opinion in detail, it does direct mores and shape the life of the home. It does this especially through women's influence upon family life and the stable morals and good order of the home. Politically incorrect as his views may appear in a feminist and relativist age, Tocqueville lays great stress on the tumultuous passions that disrupt home life in Europe, and thus render populations unfit for self-government in democracies and more prone to authoritarian forms, in comparison with the high honor paid the marriage bond and the greater severity of domestic mores observable in America. This quiet regulation of home life is another contribution of Jewish and Christian beliefs to the sustainability of American democracy.

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Read More:

Michael Novak on Democracy & Religion on National Review Online
 
While I fully agree with the basic premis in theory,I (like many others) am disillusioned by the individual leadership of the Christian Church,and the Corporation it has become. I doubt very much most would dissagree with the tenants,and morality instilled by the scriptural basis of Abrahamic faiths, and indeed inadvertantly live by these codes for the most part. The Issue is not one of America wandering from its Christian roots, rather it is the Wandering of these proclaimed Christians from the scriptures in the first place.
Hypocracy is not something I wish to associate with, and it has become an integral part of the institutions of the Christian Church in America. Until it can clean itself up,and act accordingly,I would rather avoid the christian label completely.

In short.....The Christian Church does not Deserve my Devotion,at this point.
 
While I fully agree with the basic premis in theory,I (like many others) am disillusioned by the individual leadership of the Christian Church,and the Corporation it has become. I doubt very much most would dissagree with the tenants,and morality instilled by the scriptural basis of Abrahamic faiths, and indeed inadvertantly live by these codes for the most part. The Issue is not one of America wandering from its Christian roots, rather it is the Wandering of these proclaimed Christians from the scriptures in the first place.
Hypocracy is not something I wish to associate with, and it has become an integral part of the institutions of the Christian Church in America. Until it can clean itself up,and act accordingly,I would rather avoid the christian label completely.

In short.....The Christian Church does not Deserve my Devotion,at this point.

Well you say "Christian Church" what is that? What is the Jewish Church? When I think of our roots I think of absolutism rather than relativism IE we are all endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights and among these rights are life, liberty, and property. Without absolutism the Republic could not exist, the Constitution would loose all meaning.
 
What is the Jewish Church?

There's a Jewish church? Do they have the equivalent of a pope? just asking. I thought they only went as high as a Rabbi and then there were those 7 guys the dayan, mohel, shoshet, sofer, rosh yeshiva, mashgiach of a yeshiva and the guy who oversees the kashrut food...didnt know there was a church...
 
There's a Jewish church? Do they have the equivalent of a pope? just asking.

Does the "Christian Church"?

A "Christian Church" doesn't exist either. That would be the Catholic Church "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" to be exact.

"I thought they only went as high as a Rabbi and then there were those 7 guys the dayan, mohel, shoshet, sofer, rosh yeshiva, mashgiach of a yeshiva and the guy who oversees the kashrut food...didnt know there was a church...

Ya I believe they call it a synagogue, and your point is? Does Christian/Judea mean that we're a theocracy? Umm no it means that our nation has roots based upon morality and absolute truths and that our rights are not given to us by the government they are given to us by god!
 
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Without absolutism the Republic could not exist, the Constitution would loose all meaning.

What absolutes do you speak of?

Biblical Republicanism? :roll: More like cherry picking the good passages of the bible.

Divine command moral theory is logically insufficient for morality, our own capacity for reason is enough. Theft, Force, or violence of any kind are intrinsically wrong, and everyone knows this.
 
What absolutes do you speak of?

Natural Rights!

Biblical Republicanism? :roll: More like cherry picking the good passages of the bible.

No more like the basis for Hobbes, Locke, Jefferson, et al.

Divine command moral theory is logically insufficient for morality, our own capacity for reason is enough.

And reason will tell you that you are born with unalienable rights guaranteed to you at birth that no man may violate without cause? No I believe reason would dictate that the strongest will make the weakest their subordinates at birth and that the only rights you are entitled to are those granted by the state. But no, those rights are unalienable because they are granted by god not man.

Theft, Force, or violence of any kind are intrinsically wrong, and everyone knows this.

Ya in candy land off licorice lane.
 
Does the "Christian Church"?

A "Christian Church" doesn't exist either. That would be the Catholic Church.

Umm yes TOT there is a "Christian church" it's called are you ready for it?

It's called "The Christian Church" All catholics are christians. However, not all christians are catholics. The Christian church divides itself into three groups : Roman Catholic, Eastern Christianity and finally Protestanism.

Ya I believe they call it a synagogue, and your ****ing point is?

No point. Calm down. We all know you're an Irish kid trying to act bad online. Geez. There wasn't a point. I wasn't familiar with the fact every place of workship was a church.

Does Christian/Judea mean that we're a theocracy?

Wow you have some serious issues. I was simply asking how the Jewish system worked. Calm down. Class hasn't started yet.

Umm no it means that our nation has roots based upon morality and absolute truths and that our rights are not given to us by the government they are given to us by god!!!

Have you ever noticed that not a ****ing peep has come out of God or Jesus in like 2,000 years and yet people are always claiming that what a few guys ,might have heard 2,000 years ago probably over a weed session was handed down straight from God. "Man walking on water" HA!
 
Umm yes TOT there is a "Christian church"

Umm no there isn't there is a Catholic Church an Eastern Orthodoxy and then a whole slew of others from Lutheran, Prespitirian, Protestanism, to Quaker.

Have you ever noticed that not a ****ing peep has come out of God or Jesus in like 2,000 years and yet people are always claiming that what a few guys ,might have heard 2,000 years ago probably over a weed session was handed down straight from God. "Man walking on water" HA!

No I was actually talking about Locke and Jefferson, you know the whole "endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights," but if you don't believe in that it doesn't make you any less American. :roll:
 
Natural Rights!

Agreed

No more like the basis for Hobbes, Locke, Jefferson, et al.

So you do admit to the cherry picking that is so common among the moral police?

And reason will tell you that you are born with unalienable rights guaranteed to you at birth that no man may violate without cause?

Yes, how else did the human mind arrive to the notions of such rights without reason?

No I believe reason would dictate that the strongest will make the weakest their subordinates at birth and that the only rights you are entitled to are those granted by the state.

This too is reasonable, in a very old world-view.

But no, those rights are unalienable because they are granted by god not man.

I believe that these rights are unalienable because of the nature of liberty, and we have always had them, we were only in shortage of men willing to fight for them.

As Brutus once said, "The plebs wouldn't pluck a hair for liberty, they would rather see their betters fight for them. Its cheaper than the theatre and the blood is real."

Men took these rights back from those who would suppress liberty, you have no proof for the claim that our rights were "endowed by our creator." I believe it to be the in the nature of intelligent and brave individuals to pursue liberty. If you want to attribute nature to a deity, thats you opinion, and one that could neither be proven nor validated.


Ya in candy land off licorice lane.

Are you suggesting that such actions aren't intrinsically wrong, or that most people aren't reasonable enough to understand so?
 

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