Democracy in peril

[tosca1]

Russia has been testing the west and its allies, while China, Iran and North Korea takes note.
All of these dictatorial countries have identified the weakness of these allied nations: they all have the unwillingness to fight a war.


Here is the naked truth:
While a dictator such as Putin can make his plans and decisions with no one to answer to.................................... the allied nations, unfortunately, all look to the POLLS for guidance!

The small nations who rely on NATO are witnessing for themselves how NATO reacts to immediate threats. And, they must be frightened by what they see. Rightly so.



Croatian officials have criticized NATO for what they called a slow reaction to the military drone that apparently flew all the way from the Ukrainian war zone over three alliance member states before crashing in an urban zone of the Croatian capital

The Russian-made unmanned aircraft crossed Romania and Hungary before entering Croatia and slamming late Thursday into a field near a student dormitory. Some 40 parked cars were damaged but no one was injured after a loud blast.

Croatia criticizes NATO after crash of Russian-made drone

Croatian officials have criticized NATO for what they called a slow reaction to the military drone that apparently flew all the way from the Ukrainian war zone over three alliance member states before crashing in an urban zone of the Croatian capital

abcnews.go.com

Heck - EU even depends on Russia for oil and energy!
It doesn't help either that the only one who shows to be the modern-day- WINSTON CHURCHILL (Zelensky), is about to become a casualty.
All we have to rely on are...........................bleeding hearts, who have been brainwashed by Lennon's imaginary, IMAGINE!



If no one really wants a war - why don't we just skip all the bulls***, and wave the white flag?
Then - we can all have a group hug, and a good cry.

 

[tosca1]

All those nasties watching how far Russia can go, and seeing the weakened state of the allied nations, will eventually start testing too.

BREAKING: Iran Bombs US Army Base in Erbil, Iraq with Ballistic Missiles

Multiple rockets have smashed into a US Army base and a Kurdish news channel office in Erbil, northern Iraq. At least five 'Iranian-produced ballistic missiles' hit the city in the early hours of Sunday, Governor Omed Khoshnaw confirmed. He said it was not clear whether the missiles were...

www.eutimes.net

 

[tosca1]

Russia Asked China for Military Assistance, U.S. Officials Say

Russia has asked China for military equipment and other assistance for its war effort, according to U.S. officials, who didn’t specify what Russia had requested. News of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s request for help from Beijing, first reported by the Washington Post, comes as Russia's war ef

www.wsj.com

What happens when China finally joins in, and provides military assistance to Russia?
What then?

 

[Monica33]

Russia Asked China for Military Assistance, U.S. Officials Say

Russia has asked China for military equipment and other assistance for its war effort, according to U.S. officials, who didn’t specify what Russia had requested. News of Russian President Vladimir Putin’s request for help from Beijing, first reported by the Washington Post, comes as Russia's war ef

www.wsj.com

What happens when China finally joins in, and provides military assistance to Russia?
What then?

Well done the US for stupidly helping Russia and China find even closer ties and mutually beneficial areas of co-operation .

Regardless , it does not even seem any longer truer that the US is a Democracy or much different in essence from other countries that it treats as enemies.

All are run on Fascist lines .

P.S. Latest odds on China mopping up Taiwan later on this year ? More congratulations to the US .

 

[tosca1]

Look at all the money pouring in on UKRAINE!
How much can the allied nations afford when their economies have already been struggling to begin with due to the pandemic?
If we see an unwillingness for war before this invasion began.........................just wait a few more months, and see how strongly that unwillingness will be.

They'll all be ripe for the taking for China!

What's the point of all those spendings being done for the sake of this invasion, when we can already see the writings on the wall! Will KYIV survive?
Why are they throwing money on a losing war?

I don't understand that!

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Russia has been testing the west and its allies, while China, Iran and North Korea takes note.
All of these dictatorial countries have identified the weakness of these allied nations: they all have the unwillingness to fight a war.


Here is the naked truth:
While a dictator such as Putin can make his plans and decisions with no one to answer to.................................... the allied nations, unfortunately, all look to the POLLS for guidance!

The small nations who rely on NATO are witnessing for themselves how NATO reacts to immediate threats. And, they must be frightened by what they see. Rightly so.



Croatian officials have criticized NATO for what they called a slow reaction to the military drone that apparently flew all the way from the Ukrainian war zone over three alliance member states before crashing in an urban zone of the Croatian capital

The Russian-made unmanned aircraft crossed Romania and Hungary before entering Croatia and slamming late Thursday into a field near a student dormitory. Some 40 parked cars were damaged but no one was injured after a loud blast.

Croatia criticizes NATO after crash of Russian-made drone

Croatian officials have criticized NATO for what they called a slow reaction to the military drone that apparently flew all the way from the Ukrainian war zone over three alliance member states before crashing in an urban zone of the Croatian capital

abcnews.go.com

Heck - EU even depends on Russia for oil and energy!
It doesn't help either that the only one who shows to be the modern-day- WINSTON CHURCHILL (Zelensky), is about to become a casualty.
All we have to rely on are...........................bleeding hearts, who have been brainwashed by Lennon's imaginary, IMAGINE!



If no one really wants a war - why don't we just skip all the bulls***, and wave the white flag?
Then - we can all have a group hug, and a good cry.

You're making ridiculous accusations that the left is actually pro-Russia, despite the Trump supporters being the only people talking positively about Russia and Putin.

If you want a war so bad, you're free to go. You can join the Ukrainian military if you want to fight. Why would you demand everyone else fight for something you're too cowardly to fight for yourself? When's the last time you've fought in a war?

 

[tshade]

Russia has been testing the west and its allies, while China, Iran and North Korea takes note.
All of these dictatorial countries have identified the weakness of these allied nations: they all have the unwillingness to fight a war.


Here is the naked truth:
While a dictator such as Putin can make his plans and decisions with no one to answer to.................................... the allied nations, unfortunately, all look to the POLLS for guidance!

The small nations who rely on NATO are witnessing for themselves how NATO reacts to immediate threats. And, they must be frightened by what they see. Rightly so.



Croatian officials have criticized NATO for what they called a slow reaction to the military drone that apparently flew all the way from the Ukrainian war zone over three alliance member states before crashing in an urban zone of the Croatian capital

The Russian-made unmanned aircraft crossed Romania and Hungary before entering Croatia and slamming late Thursday into a field near a student dormitory. Some 40 parked cars were damaged but no one was injured after a loud blast.

Croatia criticizes NATO after crash of Russian-made drone

Croatian officials have criticized NATO for what they called a slow reaction to the military drone that apparently flew all the way from the Ukrainian war zone over three alliance member states before crashing in an urban zone of the Croatian capital

abcnews.go.com

Heck - EU even depends on Russia for oil and energy!
It doesn't help either that the only one who shows to be the modern-day- WINSTON CHURCHILL (Zelensky), is about to become a casualty.
All we have to rely on are...........................bleeding hearts, who have been brainwashed by Lennon's imaginary, IMAGINE!



If no one really wants a war - why don't we just skip all the bulls***, and wave the white flag?
Then - we can all have a group hug, and a good cry.

Thank you Trump

 

[Craig234]

The small nations who rely on NATO are witnessing for themselves how NATO reacts to immediate threats. And, they must be frightened by what they see. Rightly so.

If no one really wants a war - why don't we just skip all the bulls***, and wave the white flag?

I wanted to agree with more of your points, but can't. Some of them are right, such as the benefits and harms of democracies being influenced by the public (and other interests) as opposed to the benefits and harms when one man is a totalitarian.

If we discussed that more, we could find that that list is biased for the democracies, that the public opinion has a bias against war, and that while in theory the totalitarian can decided against war, totalitarians tend to use war and enemies for getting power, which is part of what Putin is doing, and China does, and North Korea does.

What I'm seeing in your post fits a big problem for many in this situation: that watching the criminal murder of Ukraine is hard to stand, leading people to want to ignore the danger of nuclear war. It makes them want to argue things like an overreliance on the reliability of MAD to deter nuclear war, which is just what would cause it.

But I'll comment specifically on the line above about 'small nations who rely on NATO'. No small nation should rely on NATO. NATO is a selfish organization designed for its members with no protection guaranteed or even likely for anyone else, despite forays into Yugoslavia and Libya, neither against nuclear powers.

All the small nations have is their own defenses, any help others offer on their own, and the United Nations. This crisis is exposing a core weakness of the United Nations when a permanent member of the Security Council is the wrongdoer; as well as the limited options against a nuclear power. The United Nations is doing what it can, having condemned Russia almost unanimously and by providing humanitarian help.

As I've been saying, the lesson here is the need to abolish nuclear weapons. If you want to destroy the planet, I'm going to disagree, and you can't provide many other options; some will think they can with claims of how Putin wouldn't use nuclear weapons, based on their wanting to do something to stop him, wanting to take unacceptable risks. It doesn't mean waving a white flag totally, but it does greatly limit options.

 

[Craig234]

Look at all the money pouring in on UKRAINE!
How much can the allied nations afford when their economies have already been struggling to begin with due to the pandemic?
If we see an unwillingness for war before this invasion began.........................just wait a few more months, and see how strongly that unwillingness will be.

They'll all be ripe for the taking for China!

What's the point of all those spendings being done for the sake of this invasion, when we can already see the writings on the wall! Will KYIV survive?
Why are they throwing money on a losing war?

I don't understand that!

There's a good argument that could be made that Ukraine's most sensible option was to 'surrender' in light of a rather hopeless battle. They've made a very brave decision instead to battle the criminal invader, despite the cost in lives and destruction of their country.

What the world is doing is recognizing the threat of nuclear war, and looking for other ways to fight Putin, which are likely to succeed but it's not known how soon, and to provide what aid we can to Ukraine to give them the help they want we can without increasing the chances too much of nuclear war. China is indeed an even greater threat coming, for which this could be called a sneak preview.

 

[Craig234]

What happens when China finally joins in, and provides military assistance to Russia?
What then?

What we can expect China to do is to pursue their own totalitarian power without any regard for harm, much as Putin is doing; but that may or may not mean providing arms or other help, which they are already providing, to Putin. They may well look at the world's unity against Putin and decide they're better off not inviting getting sanctioned also and abandon their new friend.

The west should sanction China, as I mentioned in a thread; but this shows a need to keep some sanctions for deterring them from things like supplying weapons to Putin. If they did, we should enact harsh sanctions globally. Whether we would is another question. For comparison, see how we let Saudi Arabia's leader get away with murder of a US resident.

 

[bongsaway]

Russia has been testing the west and its allies, while China, Iran and North Korea takes note.
All of these dictatorial countries have identified the weakness of these allied nations: they all have the unwillingness to fight a war.


Here is the naked truth:
While a dictator such as Putin can make his plans and decisions with no one to answer to.................................... the allied nations, unfortunately, all look to the POLLS for guidance!

The small nations who rely on NATO are witnessing for themselves how NATO reacts to immediate threats. And, they must be frightened by what they see. Rightly so.



Croatian officials have criticized NATO for what they called a slow reaction to the military drone that apparently flew all the way from the Ukrainian war zone over three alliance member states before crashing in an urban zone of the Croatian capital

The Russian-made unmanned aircraft crossed Romania and Hungary before entering Croatia and slamming late Thursday into a field near a student dormitory. Some 40 parked cars were damaged but no one was injured after a loud blast.

Croatia criticizes NATO after crash of Russian-made drone

Croatian officials have criticized NATO for what they called a slow reaction to the military drone that apparently flew all the way from the Ukrainian war zone over three alliance member states before crashing in an urban zone of the Croatian capital

abcnews.go.com

Heck - EU even depends on Russia for oil and energy!
It doesn't help either that the only one who shows to be the modern-day- WINSTON CHURCHILL (Zelensky), is about to become a casualty.
All we have to rely on are...........................bleeding hearts, who have been brainwashed by Lennon's imaginary, IMAGINE!



If no one really wants a war - why don't we just skip all the bulls***, and wave the white flag?
Then - we can all have a group hug, and a good cry.

Bravo, I couldn't agree with you more. Either shit or get off the pot. Wave the flag or confront the problem. The longer we wait I fear the worse it will become and it sends a horrible message to others of putin's mindset.

 

[bongsaway]

Well done the US for stupidly helping Russia and China find even closer ties and mutually beneficial areas of co-operation .

Regardless , it does not even seem any longer truer that the US is a Democracy or much different in essence from other countries that it treats as enemies.

All are run on Fascist lines .

P.S. Latest odds on China mopping up Taiwan later on this year ? More congratulations to the US .

Go away troll.

 

[Craig234]

Bravo, I couldn't agree with you more. Either shit or get off the pot. Wave the flag or confront the problem. The longer we wait I fear the worse it will become and it sends a horrible message to others of putin's mindset.

So, either surrender to China, or have nuclear war (days after a feel-good conventional war where we wipe out Russia's army), those are your two options.

 

[bongsaway]

So, either surrender to China, or have nuclear war (days after a feel-good conventional war where we wipe out Russia's army), those are your two options.

I don't recall saying anything about wiping out russia's army? Do you not get it isn't about china or russia? It's about the dictators running those countries and if we do nothing the world will fill with other dictators, that's your third choice from my point of view. Who is going to stop russia if they decide to invade poland again? Who is going to stop china after they take taiwan and decide they want japan next?

 

[Craig234]

I don't recall saying anything about wiping out russia's army? Do you not get it isn't about china or russia? It's about the dictators running those countries and if we do nothing the world will fill with other dictators, that's your third choice from my point of view.

The thread topic is a desire for NATO to militarily attack Russia's forces, which you agreed with. If you meant something else by 'confront the problem', what was it? Your comment about 'not about China or Russia, it's about the dictators' is silly - it's the dictators I'm referring to. We aren't doing "nothing". We are doing less than we can to prevent nuclear escalation.

Who is going to stop russia if they decide to invade poland again? Who is going to stop china after they take taiwan and decide they want japan next?

In my opinion: Poland is quite clear as a NATO member. I think the Taiwan outlook is worse than Ukraine's - that they are now an independent, thriving, democracy and freedom loving country who has little hope against China's almost guaranteed plan to take power within about five years. We have security agreements with Japan making them very different than Ukraine or Taiwan.

 

[tosca1]

You're making ridiculous accusations that the left is actually pro-Russia, despite the Trump supporters being the only people talking positively about Russia and Putin.

If you want a war so bad, you're free to go. You can join the Ukrainian military if you want to fight. Why would you demand everyone else fight for something you're too cowardly to fight for yourself? When's the last time you've fought in a war?

I'm not saying the left is pro-Russia.
I'm saying, among the allied nations, there isn't any willingness to fight the war!
Leaders of allied nations are................................ POLLS-driven!
That's the obvious weakness being seen and exploited by Russia. Other hostile nations are keeping tabs.

 

[Deuce]

I'm not saying the left is pro-Russia.
I'm saying, among the allied nations, there isn't any willingness to fight the war!
That's the obvious weakness being seen and exploited by Russia. Other hostile nations are keeping tabs.

So you're saying NATO should attack Russia?

 

[RaleBulgarian]

So you're saying NATO should attack Russia?

That appears to @tosca1’s ignorant assertion.

 

[tosca1]

I wanted to agree with more of your points, but can't. Some of them are right, such as the benefits and harms of democracies being influenced by the public (and other interests) as opposed to the benefits and harms when one man is a totalitarian.

If we discussed that more, we could find that that list is biased for the democracies, that the public opinion has a bias against war,

......and leaders of democratic nations are driven by polls (because they want to stay in power).
A real leader must be prepared to put his approval ratings on the line, when needed!

What's happening isn't unlike what's happened during WW2. It's the same memo how Nazi regimes started marching and annexing countries like Austria, etc..,
Without someone like Churchill - what would've happened to UK?

All those small nations near Russia that rely on NATO and EU must be sweating like crazy right now, seeing how they can't deal with Russia!
If they can't deal with a lone wolf like Russia...................what more when China joins Russia?

and that while in theory the totalitarian can decided against war, totalitarians tend to use war and enemies for getting power, which is part of what Putin is doing, and China does, and North Korea does.

That's right. Because dictators are driven by self-interest.

That's why, no matter how we want to shy away and avoid war - you can't avoid it if a dictator like Hitler - or PUTIN is determined to have EUROPEAN DOMINION as his number one agenda!
China must be salivating over ASIA - and perhaps, world dominion!
Either you fight for your freedom........................ or, you wave the white flag!
Which is preferable?


There is no negotiation with a dictator who wants to rule the world....unless, you're willing to negotiate your sovereignty away!

 

[Lutherf]

Russia has been testing the west and its allies, while China, Iran and North Korea takes note.
All of these dictatorial countries have identified the weakness of these allied nations: they all have the unwillingness to fight a war.


Here is the naked truth:
While a dictator such as Putin can make his plans and decisions with no one to answer to.................................... the allied nations, unfortunately, all look to the POLLS for guidance!

The small nations who rely on NATO are witnessing for themselves how NATO reacts to immediate threats. And, they must be frightened by what they see. Rightly so.



Croatian officials have criticized NATO for what they called a slow reaction to the military drone that apparently flew all the way from the Ukrainian war zone over three alliance member states before crashing in an urban zone of the Croatian capital

The Russian-made unmanned aircraft crossed Romania and Hungary before entering Croatia and slamming late Thursday into a field near a student dormitory. Some 40 parked cars were damaged but no one was injured after a loud blast.

Croatia criticizes NATO after crash of Russian-made drone

Croatian officials have criticized NATO for what they called a slow reaction to the military drone that apparently flew all the way from the Ukrainian war zone over three alliance member states before crashing in an urban zone of the Croatian capital

abcnews.go.com

Heck - EU even depends on Russia for oil and energy!
It doesn't help either that the only one who shows to be the modern-day- WINSTON CHURCHILL (Zelensky), is about to become a casualty.
All we have to rely on are...........................bleeding hearts, who have been brainwashed by Lennon's imaginary, IMAGINE!



If no one really wants a war - why don't we just skip all the bulls***, and wave the white flag?
Then - we can all have a group hug, and a good cry.

You just need to be a bit more circumspect and look at things from the point of view of the beautiful people. The way they see things is that although Russia is attacking civilian populations and hospitals and such they are ALSO attacking the refugees. If enough refugees get killed then other nations don't need to provide for them so, in effect, Russia is doing the world a favor and besides, they have nukes so the rest of us really can't do anything or Putin might get upset. Look, if a whole shitload of innocent people need to die so that we, the free world, can continue to gaze at the beauty of our own navels then that's the price that needs to be paid!

 

[tosca1]

But I'll comment specifically on the line above about 'small nations who rely on NATO'. No small nation should rely on NATO. NATO is a selfish organization designed for its members with no protection guaranteed or even likely for anyone else, despite forays into Yugoslavia and Libya, neither against nuclear powers.

Therefore - all nations must aspire to build their military and have nuclear capabilities, if they can afford it.

Ukraine apparently had nuclear weapons but it gave them up when the USA, UK and Russia promised to protect it against threats! She named all three!
The woman who explained that (can't recall her position) was emotional when being interviewed on CNN! I didn't know that until it was explained.
The CNN anchor got her lips zipped! Lol - she was unable to respond!

So, there's a bitter lesson for all small nations!
You can't rely on NATO.

 

[tosca1]

You just need to be a bit more circumspect and look at things from the point of view of the beautiful people. The way they see things is that although Russia is attacking civilian populations and hospitals and such they are ALSO attacking the refugees. If enough refugees get killed then other nations don't need to provide for them so, in effect, Russia is doing the world a favor and besides, they have nukes so the rest of us really can't do anything or Putin might get upset. Look, if a whole shitload of innocent people need to die so that we, the free world, can continue to gaze at the beauty of our own navels then that's the price that needs to be paid!

I think...............this is a WAR OF CONVENIENCE.

I still am puzzled why Biden and Zelensky were at odds about that anouncement of imminent invasion.
I was thinking, perhaps Zelensky wanted to downplay the imminence of the invasion (so as not to panic people and investors)..........but also hoping that things can still be diplomatically rectified.
provided Putin isn't put in a spot wherein he cannot back down and save face.

Seems like Biden wanted it to happen. China wasn't really off the mark when she accused USA for the escalation.

Furthermore, think about it.

Most all allied leaders have been facing either scandals or low approval ratings.
Didn't Clinton bomb Iraq to detract from Lewinski scandal?

What's the best distraction and get the populace rallying behind a leader? WAR!
They didn;t even have to do the bombing themselves. Just goad Russia into doing it!

 

[Craig234]

Therefore - all nations must aspire to build their military and have nuclear capabilities, if they can afford it.

They can't afford to build militaries that can compete with the most powerful countries, but one of the key lessons this was ONCE AGAIN shows is how we ARE giving countries huge incentive to get nuclear weapons if they can for defense, much less offense (allowing their troops to do some of what Putin is doing).

Ukraine apparently had nuclear weapons but it gave them up when the USA, UK and Russia promised to protect it against threats! She named all three!

It's not 'apparently', it's simply the history. Russia obviously broke their promise.

So, there's a bitter lesson for all small nations!
You can't rely on NATO.

Like I said, to repeat, NATO wasn't designed as the protector of small nations. It's not so much a 'lesson'. That's like saying there's a lesson the police won't come mow your lawn. Well, no they won't, but there was no reason you should think they will.

I laid out things like the UN role.

 

[Craig234]

......and leaders of democratic nations are driven by polls (because they want to stay in power).
A real leader must be prepared to put his approval ratings on the line, when needed!

The issue isn't as simple as that. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's not that simple. This whole notion of when an elected leader you call a "real leader" should act against the public wishes is a very awkward topic for democracies. One man's "real leader" or hero doing the 'right thing' against the public's wishes is another man's tyrant abusing power and the trust the public put in them.

Democracy, in the form of a Republic, doesn't have a simple answer to the issue. It systemically puts the trust in the people to 'pick a good leader', but says nothing about when the leader should act against the public wishes. I said it's more complicated - imagine Putin were elected. He's acting according to public wishes - because he's lied to the public and blocked all sources of correct information.

What's happening isn't unlike what's happened during WW2. It's the same memo how Nazi regimes started marching and annexing countries like Austria, etc..,
Without someone like Churchill - what would've happened to UK?

Austria and the UK aren't really comparable, in that it seems Austria welcomed joining Hitler, while the UK did not. Again Ukraine is more complicated. They used to have regions with stronger pro-Russia people, but apparently Putin's invasion of Ukraine turned even them to opposing Russia mostly.

But ya, there is an analogy between Hitler's invasion of Poland, and Putin's of Ukraine - coincidentally adjacent nations.

All those small nations near Russia that rely on NATO and EU must be sweating like crazy right now, seeing how they can't deal with Russia!
If they can't deal with a lone wolf like Russia...................what more when China joins Russia?

Very good points, but I think they've been 'sweating' a long time and we haven't cared or paid attention much until this war. I've been saying a long time our global political and security systems have no mechanism for dealing with when a permanent security council members acts as a rogue.

That's been proven when the US has done so - like Vietnam or Iraq - and it's being proven now. Ironically, there are some parallels between the North Vietnamese resistance to the invaders of France and the US overcoming massively more powerful militaries, and Ukraine's amazing resistance against the far more powerful Russian military. We aren't the good guys in that story. China is a much bigger threat than Russia. We have no answer.

That's why, no matter how we want to shy away and avoid war - you can't avoid it if a dictator like Hitler - or PUTIN is determined to have EUROPEAN DOMINION as his number one agenda!

We HAVE created protections from another Hitler - a non-nuclear aggressor, which is why we see very little of non-nuclear countries repeating such invasions. Exceptions are when countries with powerful allies do, like Saudi Arabia getting away with war on Yemen because the US turns a blind eye. But we have no answer for when a permanent member/nuclear power do, except sanctions.

China must be salivating over ASIA - and perhaps, world dominion!
Either you fight for your freedom........................ or, you wave the white flag!
Which is preferable?

China is looking to advance their power, mostly in non-military ways. That comment about 'fight for your freedom' oversimplifies it. The US as a top nuclear power probably doesn't have to fight militarily, but we need to fight in ways we aren't sometimes, like economics and politically against China's totalitarianism. But weaker countries don't have good options - they can't really fight more powerful countries usually. Ask Yemen.

There is no negotiation with a dictator who wants to rule the world....unless, you're willing to negotiate your sovereignty away!

Again, that oversimplifies it. The US and Russia negotiate - The US says don't attack NATO or you will be attacked. The US says don't attack Ukraine or there will be huge sanctions, and there are. But there is no negotiation Ukraine can do with Putin at this time.

 

[tosca1]

That appears to @tosca1’s ignorant assertion.

I think it's your understanding that's................................ "ignorant."
You've got some comprehension issues, by the looks of it.
I never said NATO should attack Russia. You better try to understand what you read.