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Deliberative Democracy

What do you think of allowing a random sample of citizens to govern?


  • Total voters
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Love this idea! I been saying for years we could pluck random folks off our streets, stick em in office and they could do a much better job than what we get/have now. Til they get corrupted. Then we just toss em out and put some new blood in.
 
I proposed that idea 15 years ago, except I required the candidates meet minimum requirements of education, productivity, maturity, and loyalty.

Given that American high schools excel at producing unskilled labor, clearly the candidate pool has to have more than a high school education.

The candidate should have some experience living, which means a minimum age requirement of 30 years old. Damn stupid of this country to have children who've never held a job they couldn't afford to lose voting in elections.

A productive person has either held a job long term or run his own business. Thus candidates would have a minimum of five of the seven years prior to his candidacy employed.

The candidate can't be living in his mommy's basement, or attic, or othewise have failed to exit the nest.

The candidate must have proven a sacrifice to the nation to qualify. That means, cop, fireman, military veteran. Americorps weenies need not apply.

Too much age discrimination with your thoughts. I happen to think maybe we need the younger generation in office as they are not as jaded, bitter and sour as their elders.
 
Put term limits on Supreme Court Justices.
 
As I understand the idea (or as I would suggest), the random sample of the population only serves for a certain length of time, just like Congress. Once their two years (or however long) was up, there would be a new random sample of the population that took office.
It still doesnt take long for someone to get powerhungry.

I suppose that's always a possibility. However, there are a lot of egocentric jackasses in our legislatures that currently do it. I bet that the amount of that would be severely reduced, since the people who were holding power wouldn't come in (in most cases) with any partisan animosity, worries about reelection, or grudges against their colleagues.
Either that or you'd get MORE power hungry jackasses in because you're constantly putting new people in.

I dont see what benefit having average citizens act as the government.

[quote[Nothing...but we currently have cliques in most legislatures around the country (i.e. political parties) that certainly impair their members' independent judgment. Now I'm sure that people would group with other like-minded people. They won't always choose right. The idea isn't that they would do everything perfectly; just better than the current system.[/quote] Yes but HOW would they do things better?

I'm not sure what you mean. Why would this be more likely to happen in America than anywhere else?
Most of America falls into two rough political categories.

If you take a random sample of the population, you should get an accurate idea of the public's views. This is the premise on which polling is based and there is a lot of statistical support for this argument. The bigger the sample you took, the more likely it would be to accurately represent the public.
A sound theory, but I dont see how you will be able to balance getting a representative sample of the American public with a group that isnt going to start a food fight at the first disagreement.

I don't think this would happen unless you didn't change groups very often (i.e. every two years). The next group that comes into power will probably be very similar to the previous one, since they were both random samplings from the same population. Unless the voters have drastically changed their opinion on something while the officials have not (which would probably only happen if the officials implement something that becomes a disaster), I don't see any circumstances where this would happen. And under those circumstances, it's probably a good thing that the new group would try to undo the work of the previous group.
If they're similar, why bother changing them at all?


I understand perfectly that the Democrats have done every possible thing they can imagine to corrupt the process.
Translation= You dont.

What group? Under the scenario I presented, the office holders are chosen from the candidate pool randomly, for a fixed term. Then they get to go back to their civillian life and live under the laws they passed.
Again, what prevents someone who is sociopathic or mentally unstable from getting in?

Naturally, there will still be a written constitution with specifcally enumerated powers and a specifc bill of rights. I mean, the US Constitution, when followed, provides the most secure guarantees of individual liberty in human history.
Son, patriotism does not mean treating the laws of the land like a religion.

If you're referring to the nonsense we have today, it's becoming increasingly clear that the brick and stone walls in Washington could be put to better use with firing squads in front of them.
So you're a Fascist...gotcha.

You mean like when Patrick Leahy deliberately stonewalled Bush judicial appointees simply because Bush was a Republican and might nominate judges that believe the Constitution is a limit on goverment?
Ok, dont be pulling the Creationist crap with me. You dont get to defend your idea by saying "Well your system sucks so mine is better!"

What's to stop government office holders from developing an us vs them attitude?

Term limits.
How can you demonstrate that.

And, frankly, I WANT the Republican to not only demolish the edifice of socialism built in this nation by the evil Progressives, but I demand they bury the corpse of socialism in the world's deepest salt bed.
**Sigh** Forget it. You are far too partisan to even hope for any form of communication.
 
It still doesnt take long for someone to get powerhungry.

I disagree. I don't think very many people would become corrupted after only two years...especially if everyone else in the legislature came in as a fresh face at the same time. I'm sure there are some exceptions to this, but generally when I hear about congressional scandals, it's some guy who has represented his district for 20+ years, not a freshman congressman. Furthermore, since everyone in the legislature would begin and end at the same time under this system, you wouldn't have any oldtimers ingraining a culture of corruption into the newbies. In fact, you wouldn't have much of a congressional culture at all because there wouldn't be enough time to establish one.

Hoplite said:
Either that or you'd get MORE power hungry jackasses in because you're constantly putting new people in.

I'm confused as to why you think this. Do you think that most people are, by nature, power-hungry jackasses and that electing our representatives enables us to choose people who aren't? Or are you saying that there is something about government itself that brings out the worst tendencies in its officials?

Hoplite said:
I dont see what benefit having average citizens act as the government.

They would have no partisan animosity that would prevent them from compromising with others of different ideologies; they would have no worries about reelection and would be able to focus on doing what they felt was right; they would not be in office long enough to establish a culture of corruption; and they would accurately represent the voters moreso than winner-take-all elections do.

Hoplite said:
Yes but HOW would they do things better?

See above.

Hoplite said:
Most of America falls into two rough political categories.

Well that's OK. If those two political categories are broad enough that they encompass most Americans, then a random sampling of the people SHOULD mostly draw from those two categories. So for example, if you had a Senate of 100 random people, you might get 48 Democrats, 48 Republicans, 3 true independents, and 1 Libertarian or Green.

Hoplite said:
A sound theory, but I dont see how you will be able to balance getting a representative sample of the American public with a group that isnt going to start a food fight at the first disagreement.

Are you saying that the American public wants to start a food fight at the first disagreement? I disagree. Rabble-rousers like Glenn Beck or Michael Moore do not represent most Americans. Even the people on this message board do not represent most Americans. Most people don't really know or care that much about politics, and have (at most) mild feelings about politics based on what they see in the news.

Hoplite said:
If they're similar, why bother changing them at all?

For precisely that reason: Suppose that the voters of a certain state want Policy X to become a law. A random sample of people is chosen from that state, and sure enough, they implement Policy X immediately, to the applause of the public. Two years go by, and it becomes clear that Policy X has been a complete disaster for the state. Most people have changed their minds...but the random sample that implemented it has not, perhaps because they are personally attached to the work, or because they don't want to admit that they were wrong. Mercifully, a new random sample of the people is chosen, and repeals Policy X to the applause of the public.

Furthermore, switching it up every couple years ensures that people aren't in office long enough to become corrupt, form grudges against their colleagues, become out of touch with their constituents, or establish any political culture to speak of.

Hoplite said:
Again, what prevents someone who is sociopathic or mentally unstable from getting in?

Nothing...but neither does our current system. See: Jim Bunning, Daniel Akaka, Ted Stevens, Conrad Burns. As long as such people are only a small proportion of the governing body, they won't be able to inflict any damage.
 
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I disagree. I don't think very many people would become corrupted after only two years...especially if everyone else in the legislature came in as a fresh face at the same time. I'm sure there are some exceptions to this, but generally when I hear about congressional scandals, it's some guy who has represented his district for 20+ years, not a freshman congressman. Furthermore, since everyone in the legislature would begin and end at the same time under this system, you wouldn't have any oldtimers ingraining a culture of corruption into the newbies. In fact, you wouldn't have much of a congressional culture at all because there wouldn't be enough time to establish one.
How do you plan to keep them safe from corruption? If you get anyone and everyone up there, there are plenty of people who would happily take a small bribe for something they didnt see as very important. $50,000 means a lot to someone making $20,000 a year. As a business, if I want to bribe someone, I dont have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a campaign contribution that could be traced back to me. I only have to fork over a couple thousand or some free stuff every now and then to people who are gullible and unfamiliar with how politics is done.

I'm confused as to why you think this. Do you think that most people are, by nature, power-hungry jackasses and that electing our representatives enables us to choose people who aren't? Or are you saying that there is something about government itself that brings out the worst tendencies in its officials?
Im saying out SOCIETY brings out the worst in individuals and all you're proposing is shuffling the cards a bit faster, I dont see a benefit.

They would have no partisan animosity that would prevent them from compromising with others of different ideologies
Im sorry, have you taken a look around here recently?

they would have no worries about reelection and would be able to focus on doing what they felt was right
Except what one person feels is right and what is the best choice is not always the same thing.

What do you do if you get a Neo-Nazi in this committee or a radical Communist?

The entire track would be the group infighting with everyone struggling to do what they thought was right in spite of what others thought. Most everyone thinks THEY are right and everyone else "just doesnt get it".

they would not be in office long enough to establish a culture of corruption
But just long enough to be bought. And I submit it would be MUCH easier to buy them.

Well that's OK. If those two political categories are broad enough that they encompass most Americans, then a random sampling of the people SHOULD mostly draw from those two categories. So for example, if you had a Senate of 100 random people, you might get 48 Democrats, 48 Republicans, 3 true independents, and 1 Libertarian or Green.
Except then you run into problems with partisan drawing of lines within the group on ideological grounds AND you push other people from other ideologies out who might have good ideas.

Are you saying that the American public wants to start a food fight at the first disagreement?
Im saying people will scream at another person over the wrong flavor of coffee, tolerance and patience is not a trait humanity is renowned for.

Most people don't really know or care that much about politics, and have (at most) mild feelings about politics based on what they see in the news.
Even more of a reason NOT to give them the reins. Do you want the pilot of your aircraft to be ambivalent towards landing safely or operating the plane?

For precisely that reason: Suppose that the voters of a certain state want Policy X to become a law. A random sample of people is chosen from that state, and sure enough, they implement Policy X immediately, to the applause of the public. Two years go by, and it becomes clear that Policy X has been a complete disaster for the state. Most people have changed their minds...but the random sample that implemented it has not, perhaps because they are personally attached to the work, or because they don't want to admit that they were wrong. Mercifully, a new random sample of the people is chosen, and repeals Policy X to the applause of the public.
Except the problem is that the chances of your random sample being complete idiots goes up the bigger your sample is. I dont go to the cute girl at the grocery store for foreign policy tips and I dont talk to my Congressman about his thoughts regarding the viability of PC gaming into the future. I dont do this because these people are not equipped to handle that sort of discussion.

People who are un-educated or under-educated should not be making decisions regarding policy. The Socialist in me cringes to think that I would advocate that certain people be kept away from the political process...but this is not a video game where anyone can pick it up after a few minutes of screwing around with it and if you completely suck, it's ok, you still had fun.

Furthermore, switching it up every couple years ensures that people aren't in office long enough to become corrupt, form grudges against their colleagues, become out of touch with their constituents, or establish any political culture to speak of.
Again, someone can become corrupt in the time it takes to write a check and people will still form grudges based on ideological differences. It happens on here all the time, we ALL engage in it.

Nothing...but neither does our current system. See: Jim Bunning, Daniel Akaka, Ted Stevens. As long as such people are only a small proportion of the governing body, they won't be able to inflict any damage.
Isnt this supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT over our current system, not just replacing one broke with another?
 
How do you plan to keep them safe from corruption? If you get anyone and everyone up there, there are plenty of people who would happily take a small bribe for something they didnt see as very important. $50,000 means a lot to someone making $20,000 a year. As a business, if I want to bribe someone, I dont have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for a campaign contribution that could be traced back to me. I only have to fork over a couple thousand or some free stuff every now and then to people who are gullible and unfamiliar with how politics is done.

If I'm hearing you correctly, this argument basically boils down to "We need to be governed by wealthy people, because it will be more expensive to bribe them." I don't think that corruption has much correlation to income. There are poor people who pass bad checks and wealthy CEOs who steal from their shareholders. There are also poor people who volunteer at their churches and wealthy philanthropists who give millions to charity.

At any rate, I'm not suggesting that we only pay these people $20,000 per year. We can pay them as much or more than we currently pay our officials, if you're worried about corruption.

Hoplite said:
Im saying out SOCIETY brings out the worst in individuals and all you're proposing is shuffling the cards a bit faster, I dont see a benefit.

I really don't understand what you mean by "society brings out the worst in individuals." That's too vague for me to respond to. As for shuffling the cards a bit faster, as I've stated the benefits are: 1) No entrenched incumbents, 2) No politicians worrying about reelection instead of the future of their constituents, 3) No time to form a culture of corruption.

Hoplite said:
Im sorry, have you taken a look around here recently?

Where is here? This message board? I'm suggesting a random sampling of the voters, not of the people who frequent a political message board. Or do you mean the United States as a whole? If so, I'm not seeing this partisan animosity anywhere aside from political pundits on television or radio, and of course our current Congress.

Hoplite said:
Except what one person feels is right and what is the best choice is not always the same thing.

No system of governance can get people to always choose the best choice. This would at least eliminate one prime obstacle to that goal: Doing what will get them reelected instead of what they believe is correct.

Hoplite said:
What do you do if you get a Neo-Nazi in this committee or a radical Communist?

You outvote them every time they propose a silly law, 99-1.

Hoplite said:
The entire track would be the group infighting with everyone struggling to do what they thought was right in spite of what others thought. Most everyone thinks THEY are right and everyone else "just doesnt get it".

I disagree. The average person is NOT a political pundit. Most people don't have rigid political principles to which they strictly adhere and will not compromise under any circumstances. As for group infighting...there SHOULD be some of that. In a random sample, you'd have some liberals and some conservatives. That's OK. The point is that whatever the majority of the population wanted would probably be pretty close to what the majority of the random sample wanted too. Or more accurately, whatever the majority of the population WOULD want if they were well-informed about the issues, would be pretty close to what the majority of the random sample wanted too.

Hoplite said:
But just long enough to be bought. And I submit it would be MUCH easier to buy them.

Again, I don't see any evidence that the poor are more corrupt than the rich. They're more likely to go to prison, for sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're more corrupt.

Hoplite said:
Except then you run into problems with partisan drawing of lines within the group on ideological grounds

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Are you saying that the majority of average Democrats wouldn't compromise with the majority of average Republicans, or vice versa? I strongly disagree. For most people (even those of different political parties), there are a LOT of issues where they agree or at least can find some common ground.

What you are describing is actually what happens under the CURRENT system, where you have a partisan drawing of lines. In the US Senate, for example, the most liberal Republicans are far to the right of the most conservative Democrats. That is simply not the case for average people, where you have a lot of middle ground.

Hoplite said:
AND you push other people from other ideologies out who might have good ideas.

You mean minor parties? Well, they shouldn't have much of a say until they can convince more people that they are correct. When they convince more people that their policy prescriptions are good ideas, that would be reflected in the random sampling.

Hoplite said:
Im saying people will scream at another person over the wrong flavor of coffee, tolerance and patience is not a trait humanity is renowned for.

Do people called upon for jury duty routinely vote to convict people who they think are innocent, just to **** with them? If an average person saw someone having a heart attack, would they try to help or would they just point and laugh? There are things that people do well, and things that they don't. I completely disagree with your assessment. Most people want to do things well when the situation calls for it. If they can help others in the process, they feel good about it. Most people have no desire to scream at others and stonewall a process to help other people, just because they can.

Hoplite said:
Even more of a reason NOT to give them the reins. Do you want the pilot of your aircraft to be ambivalent towards landing safely or operating the plane?

The people called upon for this service would still have access to experts, of whom they could ask questions. Furthermore, I wouldn't be opposed to allowing people NOT to serve if they really didn't want to, similar to jury duty in some places.

Hoplite said:
Except the problem is that the chances of your random sample being complete idiots goes up the bigger your sample is.

Huh? Why? The chance would be exactly the same as long as you're still drawing from the same population. :confused:

Hoplite said:
I dont go to the cute girl at the grocery store for foreign policy tips and I dont talk to my Congressman about his thoughts regarding the viability of PC gaming into the future. I dont do this because these people are not equipped to handle that sort of discussion.

What if the girl at the grocery store had several months to study foreign policy with access to any experts she wanted? Or what if your congressman was briefed by his staff on a daily basis about the PC gaming industry?

Hoplite said:
People who are un-educated or under-educated should not be making decisions regarding policy. The Socialist in me cringes to think that I would advocate that certain people be kept away from the political process...but this is not a video game where anyone can pick it up after a few minutes of screwing around with it and if you completely suck, it's ok, you still had fun.

Hey I'm as elitist as they come, but this is a far separate matter than a direct democracy, where the average voter votes for some random stupid policy that cripples their state (like requiring a supermajority to raise taxes in California). This isn't at all the same thing. If you educated them about the issues and allowed them to ask questions, they'd be fine.

Hoplite said:
Again, someone can become corrupt in the time it takes to write a check and people will still form grudges based on ideological differences. It happens on here all the time, we ALL engage in it.

Corruption has nothing to do with your level of income (which, in any case, I am not proposing we change for public offices). There might be some ideological grudges, but they wouldn't be long-lasting since people would be gone after two years, and they wouldn't be common since most people simply don't care as much about politics as people on this message board do.

Hoplite said:
Isnt this supposed to be an IMPROVEMENT over our current system, not just replacing one broke with another?

If it improves some aspects of our current system while making other aspects no worse, that IS an improvement. It doesn't make any sense to criticize this system for a flaw that also applies to the current system, when the goal of this new system is not to solve that particular problem anyway. No system of governance is perfect; the point is that this one is a lot better.
 
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If I'm hearing you correctly, this argument basically boils down to "We need to be governed by wealthy people, because it will be more expensive to bribe them." I don't think that corruption has much correlation to income. There are poor people who pass bad checks and wealthy CEOs who steal from their shareholders. There are also poor people who volunteer at their churches and wealthy philanthropists who give millions to charity.
I'm simply saying your contention that these people will be harder to corrupt is false and that they are in fact far easier to corrupt than your average politician.

I really don't understand what you mean by "society brings out the worst in individuals." That's too vague for me to respond to.
We have a society that rewards the sort of behavior you want to stop.

As for shuffling the cards a bit faster, as I've stated the benefits are: 1) No entrenched incumbents, 2) No politicians worrying about reelection instead of the future of their constituents, 3) No time to form a culture of corruption.
1 and 2 can be accomplished by simply putting term limits on existing offices, except them you get officials who look at their job as just "putting in their time" and they arent around long enough to actually do anything they care about.

Number 3 has already been shown to be false.

Where is here? This message board? I'm suggesting a random sampling of the voters, not of the people who frequent a political message board. Or do you mean the United States as a whole? If so, I'm not seeing this partisan animosity anywhere aside from political pundits on television or radio, and of course our current Congress.
Go take a walk and grab a random stranger and ask them political questions. The vast majority of PEOPLE are usually partisan one direction or another.

No system of governance can get people to always choose the best choice. This would at least eliminate one prime obstacle to that goal: Doing what will get them reelected instead of what they believe is correct.
What gets people re-elected is results and stability. Throwing ten ideologues in a room and expecting anything other than bloodshed is wishful thinking.

You outvote them every time they propose a silly law, 99-1.
So it's majority rule? What do you do if the majority wants to do something wrong, say, start a system of concentration camps for Muslims? What power can over-ride them in that instance?

I disagree. The average person is NOT a political pundit. Most people don't have rigid political principles to which they strictly adhere and will not compromise under any circumstances. As for group infighting...there SHOULD be some of that. In a random sample, you'd have some liberals and some conservatives. That's OK. The point is that whatever the majority of the population wanted would probably be pretty close to what the majority of the random sample wanted too. Or more accurately, whatever the majority of the population WOULD want if they were well-informed about the issues, would be pretty close to what the majority of the random sample wanted too.
Bull, say Socialism to anyone on the street and try to convince them that Socialism really isnt what they probably think it is and see how far you get. People DO NOT like their ideas of the world screwed with, it's a fact of human psychology.

Humans tend to ignore answers they dont like or just make up alternative explanations. See anti-vaccination idiots and the ACLJ.

Again, I don't see any evidence that the poor are more corrupt than the rich. They're more likely to go to prison, for sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're more corrupt.
I never said they were more corrupt. I said it's easier to bribe someone making minimum wage as opposed to someone who forgets how many houses they own.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Are you saying that the majority of average Democrats wouldn't compromise with the majority of average Republicans, or vice versa? I strongly disagree. For most people (even those of different political parties), there are a LOT of issues where they agree or at least can find some common ground.
Finding common ground in a discussion and agreeing on legislation for the entire country is quite a bit different.

What you are describing is actually what happens under the CURRENT system, where you have a partisan drawing of lines. In the US Senate, for example, the most liberal Republicans are far to the right of the most conservative Democrats. That is simply not the case for average people, where you have a lot of middle ground.
People are not this magically benevolent force in politics. Why do you seem to think that this entire system can be dragged back to center by people who can probably count the number of times they've voted in a lifetime on two hands?


You mean minor parties? Well, they shouldn't have much of a say until they can convince more people that they are correct. When they convince more people that their policy prescriptions are good ideas, that would be reflected in the random sampling.
It doesnt matter if you have the cure for cancer. If you are an outsider, you will probably be bullied into sitting down and shutting up. Try it, stick a Socialist in a room full of free-market people and have them all try to come up with solutions to fix the economy. Even if the Socialist comes up with a truly good idea, he will most likely be ignored simply because of the source of the idea.

Do people called upon for jury duty routinely vote to convict people who they think are innocent, just to **** with them?
Most people treat jury duty as a free pass off of work or a massive irritation. I think involuntary jury service is a BAD idea for that reason.

There are things that people do well, and things that they don't. I completely disagree with your assessment. Most people want to do things well when the situation calls for it. If they can help others in the process, they feel good about it. Most people have no desire to scream at others and stonewall a process to help other people, just because they can.
I'm not saying people have a desire for conflict, I'm saying people see themselves as right and dont really stop to consider other people's points of view. Why do you think people watch FOX? They WANT to see people that agree with them, they dont want to compromise, they dont want to negotiate. They see their solutions as the best, period.

Maybe not everyone is this way, but enough are to cause serious problems for your system.

The people called upon for this service would still have access to experts, of whom they could ask questions. Furthermore, I wouldn't be opposed to allowing people NOT to serve if they really didn't want to, similar to jury duty in some places.
Then how do you ensure that the experts arent misleading the panel? And if experts are the key, why not make experts available to politicians today?

Huh? Why? The chance would be exactly the same as long as you're still drawing from the same population. :confused:
My point is that the vast majority of people are idiots.

What if the girl at the grocery store had several months to study foreign policy with access to any experts she wanted? Or what if your congressman was briefed by his staff on a daily basis about the PC gaming industry?
Then my view would be different, but that isnt what you're talking about. You're talking about picking random people who may or may not give a crap about what they're doing and who, more likely than not, haven't the faintest clue where to start. On top of many of them probably being partisan enough to cause headaches for everyone else.

Hey I'm as elitist as they come, but this is a far separate matter than a direct democracy, where the average voter votes for some random stupid policy that cripples their state (like requiring a supermajority to raise taxes in California). This isn't at all the same thing. If you educated them about the issues and allowed them to ask questions, they'd be fine.
I agree, but this is not a society where that is encouraged. Confirmation biases get handed to you almost when you're born like door prizes. Cooperation and teamwork are only buzzwords when they make someone with a bigger office than you piles of money. We are NOT socially conditioned to work together and expecting twenty or fifty or a hundred random strangers to do so, even with access to any information they want, while giving them control over a country of 30+ million people is a step short of insane.

Corruption has nothing to do with your level of income (which, in any case, I am not proposing we change for public offices).
Yes! Yes it does! When money doesn't mean as much to you then you're a lot less likely to take it when someone waves it in your face.

There might be some ideological grudges, but they wouldn't be long-lasting since people would be gone after two years, and they wouldn't be common since most people simply don't care as much about politics as people on this message board do.
So you'll end up with people who are either too disinterested in politics to care about the choices they make or with people who will let partisan politics get in the way.

If it improves some aspects of our current system while making other aspects no worse, that IS an improvement. It doesn't make any sense to criticize this system for a flaw that also applies to the current system, when the goal of this new system is not to solve that particular problem anyway. No system of governance is perfect; the point is that this one is a lot better.
No it isnt better, it's handing power off to people who generally dont care or cant see the big picture past their own politics.


If you're really fired up to have this kind of democracy, then why not select from people who ARE the experts. Have a pool of volunteers and form groups that include a cross section of experts from as many disciplines as you can get. Skip the middle-burger-flipper-man and use the experts themselves.
 
I'm simply saying your contention that these people will be harder to corrupt is false and that they are in fact far easier to corrupt than your average politician.

I have absolutely no idea what makes you believe that. There isn't any evidence that suggests regular people are more likely to take bribes than wealthy people.

Hoplite said:
1 and 2 can be accomplished by simply putting term limits on existing offices, except them you get officials who look at their job as just "putting in their time" and they arent around long enough to actually do anything they care about.

Term limits would be an improvement as well. However, this would be better because with term limits you'd still have professional politicians with partisan grudges. It would be better than we have now, but still not as good as a deliberative democracy ruled by a random sample of people.

Hoplite said:
Number 3 has already been shown to be false.

Just saying it and offering no substantiation doesn't mean you've "shown it to be false."

Hoplite said:
Go take a walk and grab a random stranger and ask them political questions. The vast majority of PEOPLE are usually partisan one direction or another.

No. They aren't. Most people (if they have any political opinions at all) have opinions like these: "I'm pro-choice" or "Obama should do more to help the economy." That is FAR more common than "I'm opposed to cap-and-trade because of X, Y, and Z."

If you really think that the average person is a rabid partisan that would preclude compromise (or even has firm preexisting political convictions), I suggest you spend more time off this message board.

Hoplite said:
What gets people re-elected is results and stability. Throwing ten ideologues in a room and expecting anything other than bloodshed is wishful thinking.

The idea that a random sample of the population would produce mostly bloodthirsty ideologues is, frankly, ridiculous. It would be representative of a population which is not particularly ideological. There are far more ideologues in Congress today. See: Demint, Jim. Franken, Al.

Hoplite said:
So it's majority rule? What do you do if the majority wants to do something wrong, say, start a system of concentration camps for Muslims? What power can over-ride them in that instance?

:roll: The Constitution.

Do you think that the majority of people want something like that? Because if they do, they can elect representatives who favor that. If you'd care to critique this system of governance, I suggest you limit yourself to criticisms that don't ALSO apply just as much or more to the current system of governance.

Hoplite said:
Bull, say Socialism to anyone on the street and try to convince them that Socialism really isnt what they probably think it is and see how far you get. People DO NOT like their ideas of the world screwed with, it's a fact of human psychology.

Legislation isn't "We hereby vote to implement socialism." There are actual POLICIES that go into legislation. If the majority of the people favor a particular policy, so will a random sample of the population (assuming the experts don't talk them out of it).

Your rant about socialism sounds to me like what you actually dislike is that this system won't make everyone suddenly agree with you on the issues. No system of government (other than a dictatorship) can fix that problem. You have to convince people that your views are correct just like everyone else.

Hoplite said:
Humans tend to ignore answers they dont like or just make up alternative explanations. See anti-vaccination idiots and the ACLJ.

They aren't anywhere close to a majority of the population.

Hoplite said:
I never said they were more corrupt. I said it's easier to bribe someone making minimum wage as opposed to someone who forgets how many houses they own.

And I said that there isn't a shred of empirical evidence to support that. Every social experiment I've ever seen on corruption has concluded that there is either no relationship between dishonesty and income, or that wealthy people are actually MORE likely to be dishonest.

Hoplite said:
Finding common ground in a discussion and agreeing on legislation for the entire country is quite a bit different.

Only if you have "professional" politicians who are deeply entrenched and want to make sure they get their own. Furthermore, this system need not be applied nationwide. It would be better to start it out at a state or local level.

Hoplite said:
People are not this magically benevolent force in politics.

:roll:
And career politicians are not Jesus incarnate. Now did you actually want to discuss the topic, or shall we just make asinine straw men comments henceforth? I already explained to you the ways in which a random sampling of the population would be better than the current system, and none of them had anything to do with people being a magically benevolent force.

Hoplite said:
Why do you seem to think that this entire system can be dragged back to center by people who can probably count the number of times they've voted in a lifetime on two hands?

You are the only one who keeps bringing up specific political ideologies. I have no idea if a random sampling of the population would produce anything that we would describe as "center" under the current political system. What I do know is that it would produce something that was well-informed, nonpartisan, and representative of the population as a whole. You can't ask for much more than that from a governing system.

Hoplite said:
It doesnt matter if you have the cure for cancer. If you are an outsider, you will probably be bullied into sitting down and shutting up. Try it, stick a Socialist in a room full of free-market people and have them all try to come up with solutions to fix the economy. Even if the Socialist comes up with a truly good idea, he will most likely be ignored simply because of the source of the idea.

And there is that veiled criticism again: "This system of governance is bad because it won't make everyone agree with MY political ideology." If you're the only socialist in a random sample of the population, it's probably because socialism isn't a very prevalent ideology amongst the population. That doesn't mean you're right or wrong, it just means that your ideas have to endure the same scrutiny as everyone else's. Convince others to adopt your ideas and they will be reflected in the random sample of the population.

Hoplite said:
I'm not saying people have a desire for conflict, I'm saying people see themselves as right and dont really stop to consider other people's points of view. Why do you think people watch FOX? They WANT to see people that agree with them, they dont want to compromise, they dont want to negotiate. They see their solutions as the best, period.

I'm looking at last Thursday's television ratings. All of the shows on FOX combined had about 13 million views (and that's assuming that there aren't any repeat viewers), or about 4% of the US population at most. When you factor in the repeat viewers, it's probably more like 4 or 5 million. And a lot of them are probably just casual viewers watching "the news," not rabid ideologues. So your example applies to maybe 1% of the population.

Hoplite said:
Maybe not everyone is this way, but enough are to cause serious problems for your system.

How many people do you think fall into this category? Let's look at the numbers. Only 57% even turned out for the last presidential election. Now let's estimate that two-thirds of them knew which party they'd be voting for regardless of the candidates/issues (roughly 40% of the population). Now let's assume that of those partisans, fully HALF of them are rabid nutcases unwilling to compromise with the opposing party on anything. Even with these incredibly dim assumptions of humanity, that's still only 20% of the population. The sane 80% of the random sample could just ignore them.

Hoplite said:
Then how do you ensure that the experts arent misleading the panel?

By giving them access to any experts they wanted, especially experts with opposing points of view.

Hoplite said:
And if experts are the key, why not make experts available to politicians today?

We already do. Politicians just ignore them, because they either think they know better, or they just want to get reelected.

Hoplite said:
My point is that the vast majority of people are idiots.

You'll get no argument from me there; most people are horribly uninformed and shouldn't be voting. But that's just because they haven't been educated on political issues. This is understandable; most political issues don't affect their day-to-day lives and their individual vote counts for very little, so for many people it simply isn't worth the time investment to learn about politics and form in-depth opinions. But if you take 100 of those same people and give them the power to actually make decisions, suddenly it's worth their time to learn about it. If you give them access to the experts, they'll be fine.

Hoplite said:
Then my view would be different, but that isnt what you're talking about. You're talking about picking random people who may or may not give a crap about what they're doing and who, more likely than not, haven't the faintest clue where to start.

No. I'm not. As I've already mentioned, I'm talking about giving them access to experts on the issues, and making it very clear to them how the legislative process works.

Hoplite said:
On top of many of them probably being partisan enough to cause headaches for everyone else.

Your view that the average American is more partisan than the average elected official is ridiculous. Do you really believe that the average voters are clamoring for more partisanship from Congress?

Hoplite said:
I agree, but this is not a society where that is encouraged. Confirmation biases get handed to you almost when you're born like door prizes. Cooperation and teamwork are only buzzwords when they make someone with a bigger office than you piles of money. We are NOT socially conditioned to work together and expecting twenty or fifty or a hundred random strangers to do so, even with access to any information they want, while giving them control over a country of 30+ million people is a step short of insane.

Sounds to me like you are projecting your own flaws onto everyone else. Most people, when thrown into a room together and told to solve a problem, will give it their best shot and WILL work together. And if they can help others, they'll feel very proud.

Hoplite said:
Yes! Yes it does! When money doesn't mean as much to you then you're a lot less likely to take it when someone waves it in your face.

That's a wonderful theory, but there is no empirical evidence to support it. The poor and middle-class are no more likely to be dishonest than the rich. In any case, I'm not talking about paying our officials minimum wage or anything close to it, so this whole line of thought is a moot point.

Hoplite said:
So you'll end up with people who are either too disinterested in politics to care about the choices they make

Most people are disinterested only because they don't have any power, so there isn't really any benefit to caring. If they were actually in charge, they'd suddenly care a lot more. And if they really just didn't give a damn, they wouldn't be under any obligation to serve.

Hoplite said:
or with people who will let partisan politics get in the way.

Your contention that the average person is a foaming-at-the-mouth partisan (but the average member of our current Congress is not) is silly, no matter how many times you repeat it.

Hoplite said:
No it isnt better, it's handing power off to people who generally dont care or cant see the big picture past their own politics.

That's a fairly accurate description of our current Congress, and is pretty much exactly the opposite of this system. You'd get people who were motivated to do a good deed for the public rather than motivated by reelection, who came in with few ideological bones to pick, and had access to all the information they needed.

Hoplite said:
If you're really fired up to have this kind of democracy, then why not select from people who ARE the experts. Have a pool of volunteers and form groups that include a cross section of experts from as many disciplines as you can get. Skip the middle-burger-flipper-man and use the experts themselves.

I have no problem with a technocracy other than it isn't representative of the public and has no checks to prevent corruption. Experts can become well-entrenched and corrupt just like our incumbent Congress.
 
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Put term limits on Supreme Court Justices.

I'm very much against term limits on the Supreme Court. I like that the Justices has the autonomy to make their rulings. If you put a term on the tenure of the Supreme Court, Justices will be more likely to make biased rulings that they can then profit from after their term is over. By having a lifetime term, there is less of a chance for corruption.

However, I would agree that we need much more scrutiny when it comes to their appointments.
 
Check out this article in TIME Magazine. James Fishkin suggests a good model for governance: Choose a representative sample of the population, and have them serve as the government. This has been implemented in many localities in several countries...but the greatest success of this form of democracy comes from China, of all places. The coastal district Zeguo governs itself in precisely this manner, by picking a random sampling of its citizens, teaching them about the issues, allowing them to ask questions of experts, and then having them decide on their own.

I really like this idea. I think it would solve a lot of problems with gridlock, incumbency, and partisanship...while also preserving most of the reasons we have democracy in the first place: To accurately represent public opinion, and to prevent abuses of power and corruption.

What do you think of this idea? What flaws (if any) do you foresee in a system like this?

How Can a Democracy Solve Tough Problems? - TIME

I really like that idea.

I can liken it to jury duty. I think most attorneys/judges/the public-at-large have great respect for juries. Something happens to most people when they serve on a jury. They become elevated, if you will...determined to make the right decision...somber in their deliberations. I think the same thing would happen to people selected at random to serve on a Democratic Governing Board.

One could keep everything just as it is -- just have the Senate and House of Representatives filled by random selection. Let's start right away.
 
I understand perfectly that the Democrats have done every possible thing they can imagine to corrupt the process.

Early voting.
Universal absentee voting
Motor voter registration.
Opposing any and all efforts to demand verification of citizenship of prospective registered voters.
Opposing any and all efforts to demand the presentation of lawful ID at the polls.
Opposition to basic literacy requirements.

ANYTHING and EVERYTHING the Democrats can do to corrupt elections, they've been doing.

Yes, I'm FULLY aware of the problems with the American electoral process.

The best part is that, thanks to the Help Americans Vote Act (brought to you by Bush), all of that is completely irrelevant.

Now our elections can be hacked, with zero traceability.

Who needs voter fraud when you can invent results out of whole cloth?
 
What do you think of this idea? What flaws (if any) do you foresee in a system like this?

I think it's a great idea. I forsee two fundamental difficulties:

1) The selection process -- how do you select a representative sample that is both accurate and tamper-resistant?

2) Level of education -- Let's face it, our educational system sucks, if we randomly pick our representatives those chickens will be coming home to roost in a big big way.
 
I think it's a great idea. I forsee two fundamental difficulties:

1) The selection process -- how do you select a representative sample that is both accurate and tamper-resistant?

2) Level of education -- Let's face it, our educational system sucks, if we randomly pick our representatives those chickens will be coming home to roost in a big big way.

#1 -- A representative sample, by its very nature, is going to take care of #2. No educational requirements needed.

As to Tamper-resistant, we don't have that now. It could only be better if the selection process is arbitrary like the jury system.
 
#1 -- A representative sample, by its very nature, is going to take care of #2. No educational requirements needed.

I'm not saying we need to have an educational requirement, I'm saying that a representative sample will, by definition, have an awful lot of people with a sub-par education in it.

As to Tamper-resistant, we don't have that now. It could only be better if the selection process is arbitrary like the jury system.

I agree. My concern is that if we're going to replace our current system, which is vulnerable to remote automated hacks, with a system which relies on random selection, we'd need a random selection process that we could be reasonably certain would be more secure than what we have now.
 
I'm not saying we need to have an educational requirement, I'm saying that a representative sample will, by definition, have an awful lot of people with a sub-par education in it.

It's so easy to compare it to juries that I just don't think it would be a problem. If one used the Registered Voters list, which is what jury selection does, I think it might make sub-par education less likely.

I agree. My concern is that if we're going to replace our current system, which is vulnerable to remote automated hacks, with a system which relies on random selection, we'd need a random selection process that we could be reasonably certain would be more secure than what we have now.

I'm not sure which system you're talking about that we have NOW is vulnerable to remote automated hacks. If there's a way to hack the system, someone will find it. But you're right, the system would have to be reasonably secure. And tampering with it a Federal crime subject to life imprisonment for all involved.
 
It's so easy to compare it to juries that I just don't think it would be a problem. If one used the Registered Voters list, which is what jury selection does, I think it might make sub-par education less likely.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah, I dunno about that. At this point, you can register to vote when you're doing any of a number of other things, so it's not like registered voters made an especial effort to get registered.

I'm not sure which system you're talking about that we have NOW is vulnerable to remote automated hacks.

Many of the electronic voting systems we use across the USA. It has been demonstrated to a number of state-level committees that it is alarmingly easy to remotely hack a number of the systems in use and alter the results without being detected.
 
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah, I dunno about that. At this point, you can register to vote when you're doing any of a number of other things, so it's not like registered voters made an especial effort to get registered.

Okay, to satisfy YOUR concern that even voters could be embeciles, then a random selection process and an IQ test that shows at least 'average,' whatever that is. You can't exclude people based on whether or not they've had a college education or whatever, in my opinion. A college education is a poor predictor of practical intelligence.

Many of the electronic voting systems we use across the USA. It has been demonstrated to a number of state-level committees that it is alarmingly easy to remotely hack a number of the systems in use and alter the results without being detected.

I see. Well, there must be a way.
 
Okay, to satisfy YOUR concern that even voters could be embeciles, then a random selection process and an IQ test that shows at least 'average,' whatever that is. You can't exclude people based on whether or not they've had a college education or whatever, in my opinion. A college education is a poor predictor of practical intelligence.

I'd be okay with that. I just don't want to be represented by an illiterate fool is all.

I see. Well, there must be a way.

Well, if we're assuming a reasonable IQ test I guess we can assume a reasonable selection process too. :D
 
I made a thread about this a little while ago. I sort of liked the idea then, and still do, with a caveat: if it is ever implemented, it should be alongside actual representative democracy to keep it in check. A bicameral thing: one house would be a random sample of the population, and one would be elected politicians. They would balance out each other's faults.

At least it sounds good in theory. I don't know how it would actually work out in real life.
 
I'm very much against term limits on the Supreme Court. I like that the Justices has the autonomy to make their rulings. If you put a term on the tenure of the Supreme Court, Justices will be more likely to make biased rulings that they can then profit from after their term is over. By having a lifetime term, there is less of a chance for corruption.

However, I would agree that we need much more scrutiny when it comes to their appointments.

I think we need to stop making it a political appointment. Right now, the party in power gets to load the court with justices who are going to vote their way. That interferes with checks and balances. We need to remove the influence of the executive branch entirely. When a justice dies or retires, there's a list of judges who are already vetted and qualified and the top 10 are randomized and one is picked by computer. Their political lean, whatever it might be, is irrelevant to the decision process. They take over on the Supreme Court.
 
I have absolutely no idea what makes you believe that. There isn't any evidence that suggests regular people are more likely to take bribes than wealthy people.
I've explained this several times already.

Term limits would be an improvement as well. However, this would be better because with term limits you'd still have professional politicians with partisan grudges. It would be better than we have now, but still not as good as a deliberative democracy ruled by a random sample of people.
I dont know how many times I can repeat this. People are just as partisan as politicians.

No. They aren't. Most people (if they have any political opinions at all) have opinions like these: "I'm pro-choice" or "Obama should do more to help the economy." That is FAR more common than "I'm opposed to cap-and-trade because of X, Y, and Z."
And good luck trying to dislodge them from those ideas.

If you really think that the average person is a rabid partisan that would preclude compromise (or even has firm preexisting political convictions), I suggest you spend more time off this message board.
I think that MANY people are rabidly partisan, I think MOST people are partisan.

:roll: The Constitution.

Do you think that the majority of people want something like that? Because if they do, they can elect representatives who favor that. If you'd care to critique this system of governance, I suggest you limit yourself to criticisms that don't ALSO apply just as much or more to the current system of governance.
A piece of paper is going to stop them? Really? How is that going to work? I'm not relying on devotion to an ideal to stop people from being jerks. I want to know what specifically can you do to dislodge one of these citizens groups should you happen to get a crop of people who thinks Adolf Hitler was just swell and wants to give his program another shot.

Your rant about socialism sounds to me like what you actually dislike is that this system won't make everyone suddenly agree with you on the issues. No system of government (other than a dictatorship) can fix that problem. You have to convince people that your views are correct just like everyone else.
My concern is that people who AREN'T as adept at convincing other people will be pushed aside and these groups will be dominated by one or two persuasive individuals.

They aren't anywhere close to a majority of the population.
They dont have to be. Statistics isnt a guarantee, you can still accidentally end up with a "random sample" that includes an overwhelming majority of one particular group. It's less statistically likely, but still possible.

And I said that there isn't a shred of empirical evidence to support that. Every social experiment I've ever seen on corruption has concluded that there is either no relationship between dishonesty and income, or that wealthy people are actually MORE likely to be dishonest.
Are you deaf or just ignoring what I'm saying? I'm saying that if I want to bribe someone on this citizen's committee, it'll be easier to do so because I spend less money doing it, they aren't familiar with basic politics, and they get cycled often which means they dont get used to big payouts and I get more chances to influence more people.

Only if you have "professional" politicians who are deeply entrenched and want to make sure they get their own. Furthermore, this system need not be applied nationwide. It would be better to start it out at a state or local level.
Even if you're only talking about legislation for a single city, there is a HUGE difference between finding common ground in a friendly discussion and trying to work out actual legislation.

:roll:
And career politicians are not Jesus incarnate. Now did you actually want to discuss the topic, or shall we just make asinine straw men comments henceforth?
My irony meter just cracked in half.

I already explained to you the ways in which a random sampling of the population would be better than the current system, and none of them had anything to do with people being a magically benevolent force.
You think that having Joe Average American in control of politics is a good idea and you are relying on statistics to give you an average. The problem is that statistics is not a guarantee that you'll get what you want.

And there is that veiled criticism again: "This system of governance is bad because it won't make everyone agree with MY political ideology." If you're the only socialist in a random sample of the population, it's probably because socialism isn't a very prevalent ideology amongst the population. That doesn't mean you're right or wrong, it just means that your ideas have to endure the same scrutiny as everyone else's. Convince others to adopt your ideas and they will be reflected in the random sample of the population.
Then this is basically organized mob rule. It shouldn't matter WHERE an idea comes from if it's a good idea. If you really want political solutions, dont rely on a system where majority rules.

How many people do you think fall into this category? Let's look at the numbers. Only 57% even turned out for the last presidential election. Now let's estimate that two-thirds of them knew which party they'd be voting for regardless of the candidates/issues (roughly 40% of the population). Now let's assume that of those partisans, fully HALF of them are rabid nutcases unwilling to compromise with the opposing party on anything. Even with these incredibly dim assumptions of humanity, that's still only 20% of the population. The sane 80% of the random sample could just ignore them.
Except that isnt what a Democracy is about. Democracy means everyone's voice has equal weight, you dont get to push people aside just because they arent the majority.

By giving them access to any experts they wanted, especially experts with opposing points of view.
People have access to that now and most of them still cant make good choices.

You'll get no argument from me there; most people are horribly uninformed and shouldn't be voting. But that's just because they haven't been educated on political issues. This is understandable; most political issues don't affect their day-to-day lives and their individual vote counts for very little, so for many people it simply isn't worth the time investment to learn about politics and form in-depth opinions. But if you take 100 of those same people and give them the power to actually make decisions, suddenly it's worth their time to learn about it. If you give them access to the experts, they'll be fine.
Again, you are essentially proposing a form of organized mob rule. The biggest group will have the biggest voice so get it's way. You will have a true dictatorship of the majority.

Having access to experts doesnt mean people will heed their advice.

Your view that the average American is more partisan than the average elected official is ridiculous. Do you really believe that the average voters are clamoring for more partisanship from Congress?
I think the average American is too partisan to be willing to work with people they disagree with on issues that will effect the entire nation.

Sounds to me like you are projecting your own flaws onto everyone else. Most people, when thrown into a room together and told to solve a problem, will give it their best shot and WILL work together. And if they can help others, they'll feel very proud.
You're accusing a Socialist of not being willing to work with others?

Most people are disinterested only because they don't have any power, so there isn't really any benefit to caring. If they were actually in charge, they'd suddenly care a lot more. And if they really just didn't give a damn, they wouldn't be under any obligation to serve.
So you'd have a group of twenty or fifty people that cared and the rest of the population that didnt. How is that an improvement?

I have no problem with a technocracy other than it isn't representative of the public and has no checks to prevent corruption.
Why does it have to represent the people and checks can be added.
 
I dont know how many times I can repeat this. People are just as partisan as politicians.

I don't know how many times I can repeat this. No they aren't, and if you actually believe that (which I highly doubt) then you REALLY need to spend more time off this message board.

Hoplite said:
And good luck trying to dislodge them from those ideas.

Who said anything about dislodging them from their ideas? Some people will have preexisting opinions, some won't. Educate them all on the issues and give them access to experts, and people may come to different conclusions about the best policies. And that's OK, that's how a legislature SHOULD operate.

Hoplite said:
I think that MANY people are rabidly partisan, I think MOST people are partisan.

And I think you must have never interacted with any actual human beings outside of political forums.

Hoplite said:
A piece of paper is going to stop them? Really? How is that going to work? I'm not relying on devotion to an ideal to stop people from being jerks. I want to know what specifically can you do to dislodge one of these citizens groups should you happen to get a crop of people who thinks Adolf Hitler was just swell and wants to give his program another shot.

Exactly the same checks and balances that prevent our CURRENT legislatures from doing that: an executive and an independent judiciary.

You're whole line of reasoning that you might just "happen to get" a crop of people who believe that shows a massive ignorance of statistics. If you have a sufficiently large random sample of the population, that simply will not happen unless that is actually what a lot of the population believes. And if that were the case, they could just elect congressmen to implement that agenda anyway, which makes your criticism a moot point.

Hoplite said:
My concern is that people who AREN'T as adept at convincing other people will be pushed aside and these groups will be dominated by one or two persuasive individuals.

Well that's the way politics works. Deal with it. Your ideas aren't special, you have to convince others that you're right. If you don't have a convincing spokesman for your ideology, find one.

Hoplite said:
They dont have to be. Statistics isnt a guarantee, you can still accidentally end up with a "random sample" that includes an overwhelming majority of one particular group. It's less statistically likely, but still possible.

This is far, far less likely than the chances that you'll get an elected legislature that includes a disproportionate number of one ideology.

Hoplite said:
Are you deaf or just ignoring what I'm saying? I'm saying that if I want to bribe someone on this citizen's committee, it'll be easier to do so because I spend less money doing it, they aren't familiar with basic politics, and they get cycled often which means they dont get used to big payouts and I get more chances to influence more people.

You can repeat this all you want, but unless you actually have some evidence that people with lower incomes are more likely to accept bribes just because they need the money (despite the fact that I never suggested we reduce the compensation for our legislatures ANYWAY), I'm just going to ignore it from now on.

Hoplite said:
Even if you're only talking about legislation for a single city, there is a HUGE difference between finding common ground in a friendly discussion and trying to work out actual legislation.

And this is a problem unique to this particular political system...why?

Hoplite said:
You think that having Joe Average American in control of politics is a good idea

No, I think having Joe Average American in control of politics - after having been educated on the issues, given access to all the information he needs, and asked to do his patriotic duty and serve the public - is a good idea.

Hoplite said:
and you are relying on statistics to give you an average. The problem is that statistics is not a guarantee that you'll get what you want.

It's about as close to a guarantee as any political system can give you. Certainly much closer to a guarantee that it will accurately reflect public opinion than what we have now.

Hoplite said:
Then this is basically organized mob rule. It shouldn't matter WHERE an idea comes from if it's a good idea. If you really want political solutions, dont rely on a system where majority rules.

And once again you've leveled a criticism that isn't unique to this political system and applies to virtually EVERY political system. Except for maybe North Korea.

Hoplite said:
Except that isnt what a Democracy is about. Democracy means everyone's voice has equal weight, you dont get to push people aside just because they arent the majority.

As long as you aren't violating their rights or the Constitution, that is precisely what you get to do.

Hoplite said:
People have access to that now and most of them still cant make good choices.

No. Most people don't care about having access to the experts, because they don't have any power. And I don't blame them. Why SHOULD they care that deeply if they can't influence anything anyway? If you put those same people in a position of power, suddenly they have an incentive to actually listen to the experts and do well.

Hoplite said:
Again, you are essentially proposing a form of organized mob rule. The biggest group will have the biggest voice so get it's way. You will have a true dictatorship of the majority.

If by "true dictatorship of the majority," you mean "a system where a majority of public opinion rules, as long as it doesn't violate anyone's rights or the Constitution, and subject to the same checks and balances that we currently have," then you are correct. :roll:

Hoplite said:
Having access to experts doesnt mean people will heed their advice.

The idea is that people would form their own conclusions after hearing differing opinions from the experts.

Hoplite said:
I think the average American is too partisan to be willing to work with people they disagree with on issues that will effect the entire nation.

And once again, I think you need to get out more. Or possibly find some friends who DON'T scream at one another over politics.

Hoplite said:
You're accusing a Socialist of not being willing to work with others?

Yes, that is exactly right. You are projecting your own flaws onto the rest of humanity. Most people want to help others. Most people (at least in the aggregate) can make a reasonable decision when given access to information by experts. Most people aren't insane partisans who refuse to work with people of other ideologies. And most people aren't going to take bribes just because they're middle or lower class. If you disagree, I can only conclude that because those things don't apply to yourself, you assume that they aren't true of anyone else.

Hoplite said:
So you'd have a group of twenty or fifty people that cared and the rest of the population that didnt. How is that an improvement?

If you had bothered to read what I suggested the benefits of this system would be, you wouldn't find anything like "This system would suddenly make the general population care more about politics." :roll:

Hoplite said:
Why does it have to represent the people and checks can be added.

Because the experts, however well-intentioned, have a culture of their own that may not be exactly the same as the public's. They are more likely to become out of touch with the problems facing ordinary people.

With a citizen-run government, this wouldn't be a problem. Worried about unemployment? 10% of the committee would've been unemployed before taking office (and many more would have a family member who was). Worried about health care premiums? The lower and middle-class members of the committee know exactly how you feel. Worried about the quality of our schools? So does every parent on the committee. Experts might mean well, but if they have spent decades in academia, government, or the corporate world earning large salaries, they are simply less likely to understand what issues the public considers most important.
 
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Ok, instead of defending your theory, you're essentially just repeating "No, you're ideas are wrong, mine are right!"

You dont defend a theory by attacking the people who are making you defend your ideas.
 
Ok, instead of defending your theory

Actually I explained why every single one of your criticisms is unsound, line by line. To which you didn't bother to respond. Not that I blame you.

Hoplite said:
You dont defend a theory by attacking the people who are making you defend your ideas.

Nope. You defend it by explaining why every single one of the criticisms is unsound, line by line. ;)
 
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