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Defining the Quagmire

JustMyPOV

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Effort to rebuild Iraq falls short

What this article details is exactly what Jack Murtha referred to when he said that we've accomplished everything that can be acheived militarily on our part. Our continued presence as an occupying force is enticing a population that doesn't want us to remain there to turn against us, and thus is fueling the insurgency.

The remainder of this fight has to be left to the Iraqis. They need to work to rebuild their own country, much in the same way our forefathers did in this country. Democracy is not brought to people who have it forced upon them at the point of a gun. It is brought about by the desire of all humans to be free. We've laid the groundwork for them, eliminated a brutal dictator and dessimated most of the forces loyal to said dictator. Now it is up to them to bring a free government to fruition for themselves. They will still have the full support of the U.S., including aid, a quick strike force, as well as advisors to help them along in their quest, but this mission no longer requires a massive deployment of troops. It hinders rather than furthers the cause of freedom in Iraq, IMO.
 

cnredd

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JustMyPOV said:
Effort to rebuild Iraq falls short

What this article details is exactly what Jack Murtha referred to when he said that we've accomplished everything that can be acheived militarily on our part. Our continued presence as an occupying force is enticing a population that doesn't want us to remain there to turn against us, and thus is fueling the insurgency.

The remainder of this fight has to be left to the Iraqis. They need to work to rebuild their own country, much in the same way our forefathers did in this country. Democracy is not brought to people who have it forced upon them at the point of a gun. It is brought about by the desire of all humans to be free. We've laid the groundwork for them, eliminated a brutal dictator and dessimated most of the forces loyal to said dictator. Now it is up to them to bring a free government to fruition for themselves. They will still have the full support of the U.S., including aid, a quick strike force, as well as advisors to help them along in their quest, but this mission no longer requires a massive deployment of troops. It hinders rather than furthers the cause of freedom in Iraq, IMO.
Although I agree with the "particulars", this still doesn't show the larger picture that must be acknowledged...

The sentences, "Democracy is not brought to people who have it forced upon them at the point of a gun. It is brought about by the desire of all humans to be free."...
is hypocritical to the previous sentence..."They need to work to rebuild their own country, much in the same way our forefathers did in this country."...

Two points...

1) Actually, it WAS at the point of a gun which made America a free country...we even accepted the help of others globally...

2) It took us a decade and a half to get there, but some complain that less than three years is too much time for Iraq...

Patience, grasshopper!

Rome wasn't built in a day, and a free Iraq will take longer than tomorrow...Failure IS an option, but only for those wanting to use that failure for political gain...

But the short-term gain they expect will turn into the country's loss long-term...This isn't about politics, although many like to pervert it that way...

If a Democrat...heck!; even a Liberal!...sees the vision of changing the Middle Eastern culture to one of peace and prosperity instead of death and 12th century ideology, then I'll be the first to jump on board...

But as long as they fight for their own self-interests instead of the country's, then I will not respect them...
 

JustMyPOV

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cnredd said:
Although I agree with the "particulars", this still doesn't show the larger picture that must be acknowledged...

The sentences, "Democracy is not brought to people who have it forced upon them at the point of a gun. It is brought about by the desire of all humans to be free."...
is hypocritical to the previous sentence..."They need to work to rebuild their own country, much in the same way our forefathers did in this country."...

Two points...

1) Actually, it WAS at the point of a gun which made America a free country...we even accepted the help of others globally...
Yes. Our own guns. It wasn't a foreign nation that came in and told us we were going to drive out the Brits and have a democracy. How do you suppose our opinions would have differed about democracy had this been the case?

2) It took us a decade and a half to get there, but some complain that less than three years is too much time for Iraq...

Patience, grasshopper!

Rome wasn't built in a day, and a free Iraq will take longer than tomorrow...Failure IS an option, but only for those wanting to use that failure for political gain...
I haven't heard anyone suggest that we want to see failure, that's just more Hannity-spin. If you could, find me a quote from any of the Democratic leadership that suggests that failure in Iraq would be positive. In fact, most have been speaking loudly against the failures of this administration. The largest of which is the failure to recognize that our continued presence as an occupying force is driving the insurgency and causing much of the good work going on there, like reconstruction, to be a never ending cycle of one step forward, two steps back.

But the short-term gain they expect will turn into the country's loss long-term...This isn't about politics, although many like to pervert it that way...

If a Democrat...heck!; even a Liberal!...sees the vision of changing the Middle Eastern culture to one of peace and prosperity instead of death and 12th century ideology, then I'll be the first to jump on board...

But as long as they fight for their own self-interests instead of the country's, then I will not respect them...
I do see that a democratic movement in the middle east will be beneficial to the entire world. What I do not see is Americans building it for them. While our continued involvement is important, our continued occupation will continue to yeild the same results we've seen to date.
 

cnredd

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JustMyPOV said:
Yes. Our own guns. It wasn't a foreign nation that came in and told us we were going to drive out the Brits and have a democracy. How do you suppose our opinions would have differed about democracy had this been the case?



I haven't heard anyone suggest that we want to see failure, that's just more Hannity-spin. If you could, find me a quote from any of the Democratic leadership that suggests that failure in Iraq would be positive. In fact, most have been speaking loudly against the failures of this administration. The largest of which is the failure to recognize that our continued presence as an occupying force is driving the insurgency and causing much of the good work going on there, like reconstruction, to be a never ending cycle of one step forward, two steps back.



I do see that a democratic movement in the middle east will be beneficial to the entire world. What I do not see is Americans building it for them. While our continued involvement is important, our continued occupation will continue to yeild the same results we've seen to date.
Sorry...all I saw was your "Hannity-spin" comment and the discussion is over...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=43533&postcount=290
 

JustMyPOV

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cnredd said:
Sorry...all I saw was your "Hannity-spin" comment and the discussion is over...

http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=43533&postcount=290
That's a shame. I was enjoying your insight on the topic. The only reason I said that was because of this:

cnredd said:
Failure IS an option, but only for those wanting to use that failure for political gain...
To suggest that anybody wants to see this nation fail in Iraq having over 2000 Americans' lives lost and $250billion of our taxdollars invested in it is ridiculous, unfair, and is the fare of certain conservative "entertainers". It is possible that this was your own conclusion as well and I apologize for not recognizing that. I'll try to avoid doing that in the future.:smile:
 
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