• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Defining God

kal-el

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
In the bible, god is portrayed as a perfect diety. Most Christians will not argue that god is a jealous god, as it says in the bible, but that is self-contradictory, he cannot show an emotion, as an emotion is something derived from an unexpected action, and he's omniscient.

Omnipotent:

Jermiah 32:26,27
Then the word of the lord came to Jeremiah: "I am the lord, the god of all mankind. Is anything too hard for me?"
But that is contradictory, as he loses a wresting match with Jacob, and he cannot win a fight against iron chariots.

Omnipresent:

Jeremiah 23:23,24
"Am I only a god nearby?" declares the lord, "and not a god far away?" "Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the lord. "Do I not fill heaven and earth?"
But that is contradicting once again, as Jesus is "supposedly" seated at god's right hand, how can an omnipresent entity have such? And the bible claims "the lord is with Joseph", but Joseph was set up, and wisked away to jail.:lol: If this fella is omnipresent, then I guess he's in a piece of **** then.

Omniscient:

Proverbs 5:21
For a man's ways are in full view of the lord, and he examines all his paths.
Yet another contradiction, in Genesis he asked Adam and Eve who told them they were naked, as he didn't know, and asked them if they've eaten from the forbidden tree. And to top it off, the goofball asks Eve, "What is this you have done?"

Omnibenevolent:

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know god, because god is love
Haha, so a loving god punishes people eternally for crimes perpetrated in a finite lifetime.

http://www.roger.id.au/sciencestuff/theological/5.php
 

ngdawg

conliberaservatarianist
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 19, 2005
Messages
2,149
Reaction score
24
Location
trackside
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
As much as I went to church, attended summer bible schools and belonged to youth groups until my teens, I don't get it at all.
He made man in his own image, yet is ominpresent, omnipotent and all those other omni's. (Personally, I think that is an extremely arrogant and egotistical claim, that humans are made in the image of God).
Why does he talk to some and not others? (Fundamentalists will claim we turn a deaf ear, he doesn't talk to non-believers, yada yada).
Why did Son of Sam hear him through the neighbor's dog and go on a killing spree, but Moses heard him at a burning bush and is a hero who saved his people and got some commandments as well?
 

kal-el

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
ngdawg said:
As much as I went to church, attended summer bible schools and belonged to youth groups until my teens, I don't get it at all.
He made man in his own image, yet is ominpresent, omnipotent and all those other omni's. (Personally, I think that is an extremely arrogant and egotistical claim, that humans are made in the image of God).
For the majority of my life, I was a Christian, as when you are younger, you don't have a strong sense of denial.


Why does he talk to some and not others? (Fundamentalists will claim we turn a deaf ear, he doesn't talk to non-believers, yada yada).
Why did Son of Sam hear him through the neighbor's dog and go on a killing spree, but Moses heard him at a burning bush and is a hero who saved his people and got some commandments as well?
According to a blind man who Jesus heals, god doesn't listen to sinners:

John 9:31
We know that god does not listen to sinners. He listens to godly men who do his will.
I guess Satan and Cain weren't sinners?

Job 1:9-12
"Does Job fear god for nothing. "Satan replied."Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." The lord said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the lord.
I have a big problem with this little dialogue between Satan and his chummy sky gremlin. How can Satan leave the presence of the lord, when he is everywhere?


Genesis 4:14-15
"Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presense; I will be a restless wanderer on earth, and whoever finds me will kill me." But the lord said to him,"Not so, if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengence seven times over."
Ok, how can Cain be hidden from god's presence? I see this loving god utilizes threats once again.:lol:
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
169
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
ok could you say what you are arguing in a shorter verison...like a short paragraph...so i dont have to argu against every little thing...lets do this is process
 

kal-el

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
i believe in tranquility said:
ok could you say what you are arguing in a shorter verison...like a short paragraph...so i dont have to argu against every little thing...lets do this is process
Say what? You were referring to me, right? What I am arguing is that the god of the bible is impossible. As the bible depicts him as a blundering idiot, a mafia-esque butcher, and a blatant liar. He seems to kill anyone that refuses to adulate him; he utilizes threats and violence to get his way.:lol:
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
169
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
ok...lets get things all settled out.


ONE: If you didnt already know, the Old Testament is reffeed to the Jews as The Torah (first 5 books) and the Tannhak (the rest of the books). SHaky on spelling..sry

TWO: Im not denying any of the quptes you presented about God being violent, vengfull, so on and so fourth.


Anyways if you are presenting these arguments towards Jews, than so be it because this is thier most "holy" text, but if you are reffering this to Christians, then I would have to disagree with you. For a few reasons:

1. Was Jesus violent, vengfull, etc.?
2. Did Jesus advocate anything relating to what we call today as "unjust" acts?

3. My whole point is that the teachings of Jesus are more importnat for a Christian than the myths of the Old Testamnet are.


So i dont know if we are in dissagreement any longer friend.
 

kal-el

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
i believe in tranquility said:
ONE: If you didnt already know, the Old Testament is reffeed to the Jews as The Torah (first 5 books) and the Tannhak (the rest of the books). SHaky on spelling..sry
Correct. The first 5 books were the basis for the Hebrew faith. Verses in these books were often quoted in Hebrew worship. This collection then finally started being called the OT. I believe Jews called the first 5 books the Torah, Books of the Law, and the Pentateuch.

TWO: Im not denying any of the quptes you presented about God being violent, vengfull, so on and so fourth.
Good. I really don't get where Christians come up with the frivolous notion that god is peaceful, maybe to those that kiss his ass.

Deuteronomy 7:10
But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.
Deuteronomy 28:58-62
If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name- the Lord your God- the lord will send fearful plagues on you and your decendents, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt that you dreaded, and they will cling to you. The lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in this book of the law, until you are destroyed. You were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but a few in number, because you did not obey the lord your god.
Wow, what a peaceful "god" this fellow is. It basically says if you don't do as this fellow says, he will have no problem destroying you.


Anyways if you are presenting these arguments towards Jews, than so be it because this is thier most "holy" text, but if you are reffering this to Christians, then I would have to disagree with you. For a few reasons:

1. Was Jesus violent, vengfull, etc.?
Well he did overturn the stalls of the merchants at the temple.

2. Did Jesus advocate anything relating to what we call today as "unjust" acts?
Actually, he did:

Matthew 5:17
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fullfill them.
It seems that the dead carpenter approves of the numerous cruelties (laws) in the OT. He never condemns having slaves, beating women, killing people or animals.

3. My whole point is that the teachings of Jesus are more importnat for a Christian than the myths of the Old Testamnet are.
Really? They cannot cherry-pick figurative parables out of infallible text. Either it's all the infallible word of god, or it isn't. Anyway, Jesus believed in the Noah's ark myth:

Luke 17:26-27
Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the son of man. People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.
And, the dead Jew believed in Jonah's "journey" deep inside a fish:

Matthew 12:39-40
He answered, " A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the son of man will be 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth."
So how can you honestly claim that Chrisitians adhere mostly to Christ's teachings, and do not buy the OT's myths, when their very own focal point of their religion does?
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
169
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Wow, what a peaceful "god" this fellow is. It basically says if you don't do as this fellow says, he will have no problem destroying you.
again: OT....no reason for me to argue against this. I am in agreement with you.


Well he did overturn the stalls of the merchants at the temple.
Do you know what the circumstances were? Tax collectors were stealing from temples. So jesus overturned a table full of robbed money. Did that act kill anybody, did that act cause physical abuse to anybody? I would have to say no. So no Jesus was not violent (unless you call that act something extreme, which one may argue...).

It seems that the dead carpenter approves of the numerous cruelties (laws) in the OT. He never condemns having slaves, beating women, killing people or animals.
Again Im going to have to disagree with you here:

The word of Jesus clearly states what he feels about these laws and the "hypocrites" that stick to them.

Matthew 23:12-20

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[a]

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it."

Jesus also said that we should disregard these old laws, and sum them up into 2 laws. 1, love your god with your whole heart. 2, love your neighbor as yourself (and i think beating your wife counts as NOT loving your nieghbor as yourself).

Really? They cannot cherry-pick figurative parables out of infallible text. Either it's all the infallible word of god, or it isn't. Anyway, Jesus believed in the Noah's ark myth:
Im not saying that christians dont beilve in the OT, i said that it is not as important as the NT, which clearly has different morals and teachings.
 

tecoyah

Back
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
9,777
Reaction score
3,417
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
i believe in tranquility said:
Matthew 23:12-20

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[a]

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
So.......What if MY jesus says YOU are the Pharisees?
 

Apostle13

Wisdom Warrior
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 3, 2005
Messages
1,344
Reaction score
24
Location
Outer Darkness
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
The Old Testament conceals... What the New Testament reveals.
Psalms 82:6
"I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'

John 19:34-36
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

Romans 8:14-17
because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are His children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Revelations 5: 9-10
"You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,
5:10 and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on earth."

The message is clear, who we are, where we are going, for as to how we choose, and in whom we believe. Again... Free Will.
 

kal-el

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
i believe in tranquility said:
again: OT....no reason for me to argue against this. I am in agreement with you.
Wow, a Christian agreeing with an atheist. Is hell gonna freeze over?:lol:


Do you know what the circumstances were? Tax collectors were stealing from temples. So jesus overturned a table full of robbed money. Did that act kill anybody, did that act cause physical abuse to anybody? I would have to say no. So no Jesus was not violent (unless you call that act something extreme, which one may argue...).
I am going to parrot what you said, "There is no reason for me to argue this." I also believe he was totally non-violent, a pacifist. For cryin out loud, I wouldn't call "Turn the other cheek", or "Love your enemies" exactly fighting words.:2razz: Jesus overturned the merchants stalls because the temple was only a place of worship, not for buying or selling. I only referenced that, because he did chase the merchants out. But he was far from violent.


Again Im going to have to disagree with you here:

The word of Jesus clearly states what he feels about these laws and the "hypocrites" that stick to them.

Matthew 23:12-20

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[a]

15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it."
And these are part of the seven woes. He was speaking to the Pharisees at the temple, as he already silenced the Saducees. He in no way, referneced the OT laws. If "hypocrites" stick to OT laws, I guess this "god" fella is the biggest hypocrite, as he made these laws, as well as enforced them by killing anyone he seen fit.

Jesus also said that we should disregard these old laws, and sum them up into 2 laws.
No, he didn't. You're being quite elusive here.

1, love your god with your whole heart. 2, love your neighbor as yourself (and i think beating your wife counts as NOT loving your nieghbor as yourself).
Haha, these were the greatest commandments in the law. A pharisee, who was an expert in the law, questioned Jesus. And again, he silenced him, so know one from then on had the balls to ask him any questions.


Im not saying that christians dont beilve in the OT, i said that it is not as important as the NT, which clearly has different morals and teachings.
Yes, its morals seem to do a complete 360, that's one reason why I cannot take the bible seriously.
 

kal-el

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Apostle 13
The message is clear, who we are, where we are going, for as to how we choose, and in whom we believe. Again... Free Will.
Yea, ok. According to the sky genie, we cannot alter our destiny:

Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called; he also justified; those he justified; he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in comformity with the purpose of his will.
Ephesians 1:4-5
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.
2 Timothy 1:9
The power of god who has saved us and called us to a holy life- not because of anything we have done, but because of his own purpose and grace.
Wow, it seems you're "free will" argument is null and void.:lol: I guess we are simply powerless, unthinking pawns in some sort of divine game that this fella plays out.:lol:
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
169
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
kal: you gotta be one of the koolest atheists ive ever met, most dont take the time to understand a fellow brother, but nevertheless, our differences in theology, dont effect our universal conceptions about morality.

Good talkin bro.
 

kal-el

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
i believe in tranquility said:
kal: you gotta be one of the koolest atheists ive ever met, most dont take the time to understand a fellow brother, but nevertheless, our differences in theology, dont effect our universal conceptions about morality.

Good talkin bro.
Yes, others might not feel the same, but I'm trying to be less baleful and symptomatic in my posts. It helps alot viewing things from a Christians perspective, that's the main reason I use scripture quotes to back up my arguments, they can relate to scripture.
 

Apostle13

Wisdom Warrior
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 3, 2005
Messages
1,344
Reaction score
24
Location
Outer Darkness
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
kal-el said:
Yea, ok. According to the sky genie, we cannot alter our destiny:
Wow, it seems you're "free will" argument is null and void.:lol: I guess we are simply powerless, unthinking pawns in some sort of divine game that this fella plays out.:lol:
Well then... I guess you got left out of the loop.:2razz:
Maybe you are the pawn, and I the bishop. Your better hope then would be to make it across the board. I tend to believe you are over the halfway... Aspire yourself.
 

kal-el

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Apostle13 said:
Well then... I guess you got left out of the loop.:2razz:
Maybe you are the pawn, and I the bishop. Your better hope then would be to make it across the board. I tend to believe you are over the halfway... Aspire yourself.
Huh? Is there any point to what you just said, or are you preaching?
 

Apostle13

Wisdom Warrior
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 3, 2005
Messages
1,344
Reaction score
24
Location
Outer Darkness
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
kal-el said:
Huh? Is there any point to what you just said, or are you preaching?
Yes... And yes.
Do you know chess, or do you just fancy the mindless pawn analogy you gave?:sword:
 

kal-el

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Apostle13 said:
Yes... And yes.
Do you know chess, or do you just fancy the mindless pawn analogy you gave?:sword:
Actaully, I'm no chess wiz, I just think that's a rather good analogy. If you were trying to be funny, I suggest you
 

Jerry

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
51,124
Reaction score
15,258
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
kal-el said:
In the bible, god is portrayed as a perfect diety. Most Christians will not argue that god is a jealous god, as it says in the bible, but that is self-contradictory, he cannot show an emotion, as an emotion is something derived from an unexpected action, and he's omniscient.
God is the force behind the PreQuantum Field.

Also, if I may point out a possable false premise, "an emotion is something derived from an unexpected action". This definition of emotion does not account for love, which is the primary simplified Christian definition for what God is.

Wikipedia has many definitions for what emotion is.
 

Tashah

wʜɪтe яussɪaи
DP Veteran
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
18,379
Reaction score
9,226
Location
ישראל • אמריקה
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Centrist
From a Jewish perspective, the New Covenant necessarily founds itself upon a misreading of the Hebrew Bible. Yet the power of Christian translators, particularly Jerome and Tyndale, has obscured the relative weakness (aesthetic and cognitive) of the Greek New Testament in its agon with Tanakh.

Even if Mark were as powerful a writer as the Yahwist, there could be no contest since Torah (like the Qu'ran) is God, whereas the entire argument of the Belated Testament is that a man has replaced Scripture.
 

Apostle13

Wisdom Warrior
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 3, 2005
Messages
1,344
Reaction score
24
Location
Outer Darkness
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
Tashah said:
Even if Mark were as powerful a writer as the Yahwist, there could be no contest since Torah (like the Qu'ran) is God, whereas the entire argument of the Belated Testament is that a man has replaced Scripture.
"A man" meaning Jesus or Mark?
 

Jerry

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
51,124
Reaction score
15,258
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Tashah said:
From a Jewish perspective, the New Covenant necessarily founds itself upon a misreading of the Hebrew Bible. Yet the power of Christian translators, particularly Jerome and Tyndale, has obscured the relative weakness (aesthetic and cognitive) of the Greek New Testament in its agon with Tanakh.

Even if Mark were as powerful a writer as the Yahwist, there could be no contest since Torah (like the Qu'ran) is God, whereas the entire argument of the Belated Testament is that a man has replaced Scripture.
I am not aware of any man having replaced scripture. Mark did not exclude nor did Jesus abolish the books of Moses or the old law.

Could you give us a few examples of said misreadings and obscured relative weaknesses? I hope I wont need to be capable of reading Hebrew to understand them.
 

kal-el

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 22, 2005
Messages
3,412
Reaction score
8
Location
United States
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Jerry said:
God is the force behind the PreQuantum Field.

Also, if I may point out a possable false premise, "an emotion is something derived from an unexpected action". This definition of emotion does not account for love, which is the primary simplified Christian definition for what God is.

Wikipedia has many definitions for what emotion is.
Per your link: Emotions are mental states that arise spontaneously,- I guess you can rule out omniscience then, cause if an emotion is spontaneous, it is not forseen.
 
Top Bottom