• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Declaration of Independence question

Question


  • Total voters
    9

tacomancer

Big Scary Liberal
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
39,778
Reaction score
20,611
Location
Akron
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Would the declaration of independence have been just as valuable if the founders had simple wrote to the king "**** you guys, we want our own country" (in the popular dialect of the time of course) and left out the justification brought about by the idea of natural rights? Would the revolutionary war and the founding of the country been as justified?
 
Last edited:

Harry Guerrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
28,955
Reaction score
12,423
Location
Not affiliated with other libertarians.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Would the declaration of independence have been just as valuable if the founders had simple wrote to the king "**** you guys, we want our own country" and left out the justification brought about by the idea of natural rights?
I think it would of been pretty "action hero" cool but not as eloquent.
 

tacomancer

Big Scary Liberal
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
39,778
Reaction score
20,611
Location
Akron
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
I think it would of been pretty "action hero" cool but not as eloquent.
Yes, it would be certainly less eloquent. But would the revolutionary war been as justified? (added it to the OP to clarify my question)
 

obvious Child

Equal Opportunity Hater
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
19,883
Reaction score
5,120
Location
0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Other
Yes, it would be certainly less eloquent. But would the revolutionary war been as justified? (added it to the OP to clarify my question)
Probably. Take out the flowery language and the reasons for revolution were still very much there. Try it this way, take out the list of why the King sucks and is there justification for the war? The justification lies in the right to self governor and of the atrocities the King has committed.
 

soccerboy22

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2010
Messages
10,723
Reaction score
4,120
Location
A warm place
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
To the people that supported the Revolutionary War, probably.
 

tacomancer

Big Scary Liberal
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
39,778
Reaction score
20,611
Location
Akron
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Probably. Take out the flowery language and the reasons for revolution were still very much there. Try it this way, take out the list of why the King sucks and is there justification for the war? The justification lies in the right to self governor and of the atrocities the King has committed.
I am of the same opinion. People take what they want and only society exists to oppose them. The interplay between those two forces is what creates our idea of rights. The people were ready for change and they had enough force to win. I don't think the philosophizing had much effect on it.
 

Harry Guerrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
28,955
Reaction score
12,423
Location
Not affiliated with other libertarians.
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Yes, it would be certainly less eloquent. But would the revolutionary war been as justified? (added it to the OP to clarify my question)
War can be justified for practically any reason.
That doesn't mean, I always agree with it.

Depends on each individual's moral values.
 

expandmymind

Banned
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
229
Reaction score
120
Location
Scotland
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Would the declaration of independence have been just as valuable if the founders had simple wrote to the king "**** you guys, we want our own country" (in the popular dialect of the time of course) and left out the justification brought about by the idea of natural rights?
The Declaration of Independence was based largely on the Scottish one (allegedly - it was the only one existing beforehand, except the Dutch). Both written to escape the Crown. My guess, especially considering how many key signatories were Scottish, is that they would have recalled the key elements when creating the second Declaration of Independence from the same Crown and that it would have to have been a lot more detailed than you suggest.

No need to thank us Scots for setting the precedent for you ;)

So to answer your question, it was a legal document and therefore would have to have been a bit more detailed than ' F-U'. A document like that wouldn't have been a very solid base, not to mention it probably wouldn't have been recognised by other countries around the world.
 
Last edited:

Korimyr the Rat

Baby Eating Monster
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Messages
19,553
Reaction score
15,757
Location
Cheyenne, WY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
We started the Revolution and won because we were powerful enough to do it; power comes from the barrel of a gun. Justification only matters after the fact.
 

rathi

Count Smackula
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
7,890
Reaction score
4,730
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
We started the Revolution and won because we were powerful enough to do it; power comes from the barrel of a gun. Justification only matters after the fact.
I fully agree, but the after the fact part is important. The U.S. has managed to avoid coups and power struggles primarily because belief in democratic tradition is very strong. Symbols have can have enormous influence even if they are essentially toothless by themselves.
 

Technocratic

Active member
Joined
Sep 7, 2010
Messages
359
Reaction score
103
Location
Soviet Technate
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Well, while some of the complaints were real, the DoI was largely a propaganda document in the form of a lawyer's brief. It had some misleading elements and exaggerated issues.

And it tries to paint Americans in the best light, glossing over the myriad of things Americans did in the first place to cause the problems.

But, the flowery language is interesting, because most of the countries to which it was directed were...not liberal republics, anyway. The function of the Document was to entice foreign governments to support the United States, and it doesn't even seem intuitive to appeal to natural rights and revolution when your audience is a panel of monarchies opposed to the concept. It was probably useful for gaining popular support in England for the revolution, as well as in other countries, so as to exert pressure on their governments.
 

Korimyr the Rat

Baby Eating Monster
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2006
Messages
19,553
Reaction score
15,757
Location
Cheyenne, WY
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
The U.S. has managed to avoid coups and power struggles primarily because belief in democratic tradition is very strong.
I'd say we've avoided coups and the kind of blatant power struggles that certain countries are known for primarily because we are rich. Armies may march on full stomachs, but revolutions thrive on hunger.

And our history of avoiding civil strife isn't exactly unblemished, either-- the Whiskey Rebellion, the Civil War, the Thirties and the Sixties and on and on.
 

UtahBill

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 30, 2005
Messages
18,265
Reaction score
6,648
Location
Utah
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
We DID tell the King to "(*&)off, but in a subtle and genteel way. Anybody can be crude while insulting another, it takes talent to be insulting with a bit of class...
 

rathi

Count Smackula
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 10, 2006
Messages
7,890
Reaction score
4,730
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I'd say we've avoided coups and the kind of blatant power struggles that certain countries are known for primarily because we are rich. Armies may march on full stomachs, but revolutions thrive on hunger.
Look at France. Despite being an extremely wealthy nation, they have had 5 republics in the last 2 centuries. Wealth may be helpful in promoting stability, but it is no guarantee.

And our history of avoiding civil strife isn't exactly unblemished, either-- the Whiskey Rebellion, the Civil War, the Thirties and the Sixties and on and on.
Of course. However, there has never been unrest based on the transfer of power. Even the civil war was based on the concept of leaving the union rather than trying to oust Lincoln. Presidents were kept to 2 term limits for more than a century based on nothing more than tradition.
 

Chappy

User
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Messages
2,443
Reaction score
733
Location
San Francisco
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Liberal
All that flowery language and philosophy was recounting the reasoning behind the separation of the colonies from their king and tied their actions to the whole historical record of what it meant to be British subjects who from the darkest ages had established a tradition of rule by consent of the governed, a pact made null and void through the arbitrary and capricious actions of the current leadership.

All that flowery language and philosophy wasn't for the British king or his parliament either; it was for the colonists, to crystallize for them precisely what the conflict was about and why it was so necessary that it be conducted at that moment. Stripping out those justifications and traditions would have undermined the cause and doomed the effort to failure. Rarely in history, has such a great cause's destiny depended on the effectiveness of so few words.
 

spud_meister

Veni, vidi, dormivi!
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 6, 2009
Messages
36,113
Reaction score
21,519
Location
Didjabringabeeralong
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
I agree with Mr. Rat, you could have told the king that you didn't like him and he wore women's panties, the fact that you won was all the justification that was needed.
 

peepnklown

Frankernaut
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Messages
607
Reaction score
177
Location
California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
I guess it depends on what was to become of the colonies after the war and what type of relationship the individual and the state would have. The DOI laid the foundation of natural rights, limited government, the role of government, etc.
 

molten_dragon

Anti-Hypocrite
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
10,111
Reaction score
4,744
Location
Southeast Michigan
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Yes, it would have been every bit as justified. The whole 'unalienable rights' part was just flowery political rhetoric.
 
Top Bottom