Debating with Style

[Evilroddy]

Fantastic post @Evilroddy !!!

HikerGuy83:

Thank you. I have read quite a few of your posts and have been impressed with your knowledge and what you have had to say, especially regarding your constitution.

Wonder why you call yourself Evil.......

That must remain shrouded behind the dark clouds of mystery.

I only quoted a couple of paragraphs I agree with in particular (loved it all).

Cheers.

And welcome to the loft.

I've been here before, but every new welcome is appreciated.

We have had some other very good conversations going on here and I appreciate them.

Yes, I've been reading them. I read far more than I post here on DPF.

I recently came across some YouTube video's of discussion between Ben Shapiro and Bill Maher. These two don't agree on a lot, but they discuss what they do agree on (and I think they are seeing they agree on more than what they originally thought). The last one I watched, I got the sense they were really two friends talking to each other.

I've come to respect Maher more as of late (and not because of this). I used to call him a complete moron (and at one point....I really did feel he talked like one). But, he has show some real courage in taking on what he thinks is wrong.

I haven't watched it yet, but Shapiro and Anna Kasparian (who I despise and have no respect for) got together for a debate and (according to my friends) it was a very productive discussion because it stayed away from name calling and shouting down.

I had to look up Anna Kasparian and then realised who she was -the Young Turks lass. Ben Shapiro and Bill Maher were more recognisable to me, but frankly not that interesting to my taste.

It can be done !!!!

Amen to that, sir!

I have appreciated @NWRatCon (I think he'd agree we don't agree on much....if anything....except that we don't agree on anything.....but then we'd agree on something.....sooooooo.......) taking time to share with me on several threads on the constitution. He's quite knowlegable and very good with concise discussion. I have found it to be very thought provoking.

Yup, @NWRatCon is one of the best debaters and one of the most interesting writers on this forum. There are many more, yourself included. Some posters here I am in awe of. Some I disagree with but I very much respect their arguments, their intelligence, their wisdom and their knowledge. A few I have alienated in the heat of debate and I am sorry for that. Mea culpa.

DP Forum might not be perfect but it is pretty damn good because it offers very good moderation and some great posters.

Cheers and be well, sir.
Evilroddy.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Well, I have to say I've strayed into the sewer on quite a number of occasions.

It doesn't smell any better than it did before.

 

[HikerGuy83]

I need to make a Mid-New-Years resolution to just post in this forum.

I have actually started a couple of call out threads to throw poop at posters I don't respect.

Bad form on my part.

Need more discipline.

 

[OscarLevant]

I have been a participant in political discussion boards for decades. Remember the election of 2000 and the controversy surrounding the Supreme Court's intervention? How quaint those times seem. Remember when the sexual habits of a President seemed significant? Good times. Over the years, and perhaps it was the particular forums I participated in, I have watched as the "debating habits" of participants have degraded. Yes, "burns" and "put-downs" have always been a theme in debates, but they used to be done with far greater panache and erudition. The sharpest knives go in without being felt immediately. Facts used to matter. Wow, that takes me back! I actually remember when one would use logic to build an argument, provide citations to relevant material and conduct disagreements with respect and a presumption of sincerity. I used to do that too!

Now, it seems, I am too often drawn into "debates" that consist entirely of well-worn and canned position statements that are presented with no intent of persuasion, without consideration or even understanding; When a well-developed rationale is responded to with a "dismissed" or less-polite versions of "Jane, you ignorant slut!"; "Labels" are de rigueur in lieu of specifics or actual responses, with the expectation that the recipient, not being one of "us", is assumed to be one of "them" and not deserving of consideration. Worse, I am prompted to respond in kind!

My question is: am I alone in this feeling? Is my desire for debate with substance and respect just a quaint notion from a bygone era? Is self-deprecation or even self-consciousness passe? Is nuance dead? Is it possible, in this day and age, to carry on a reasoned debate with an honest and respectful opponent, or is this just wishful thinking?

I have been on debate forums going back to the days of Usenet. I hear ya.

 

[HikerGuy83]

My bad.....just trolled another thread.

 

[noonereal]

I have been a participant in political discussion boards for decades. Remember the election of 2000 and the controversy surrounding the Supreme Court's intervention? How quaint those times seem. Remember when the sexual habits of a President seemed significant? Good times. Over the years, and perhaps it was the particular forums I participated in, I have watched as the "debating habits" of participants have degraded. Yes, "burns" and "put-downs" have always been a theme in debates, but they used to be done with far greater panache and erudition. The sharpest knives go in without being felt immediately. Facts used to matter. Wow, that takes me back! I actually remember when one would use logic to build an argument, provide citations to relevant material and conduct disagreements with respect and a presumption of sincerity. I used to do that too!

Now, it seems, I am too often drawn into "debates" that consist entirely of well-worn and canned position statements that are presented with no intent of persuasion, without consideration or even understanding; When a well-developed rationale is responded to with a "dismissed" or less-polite versions of "Jane, you ignorant slut!"; "Labels" are de rigueur in lieu of specifics or actual responses, with the expectation that the recipient, not being one of "us", is assumed to be one of "them" and not deserving of consideration. Worse, I am prompted to respond in kind!

My question is: am I alone in this feeling? Is my desire for debate with substance and respect just a quaint notion from a bygone era? Is self-deprecation or even self-consciousness passe? Is nuance dead? Is it possible, in this day and age, to carry on a reasoned debate with an honest and respectful opponent, or is this just wishful thinking?

Truth has lost all value under Trumpism. As such, no debate of any kind is possible.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Truth has lost all value under Trumpism. As such, no debate of any kind is possible.

You might read the rules of the board.

 

[ElChupacabra]

I have been a participant in political discussion boards for decades. Remember the election of 2000 and the controversy surrounding the Supreme Court's intervention? How quaint those times seem. Remember when the sexual habits of a President seemed significant? Good times. Over the years, and perhaps it was the particular forums I participated in, I have watched as the "debating habits" of participants have degraded. Yes, "burns" and "put-downs" have always been a theme in debates, but they used to be done with far greater panache and erudition. The sharpest knives go in without being felt immediately. Facts used to matter. Wow, that takes me back! I actually remember when one would use logic to build an argument, provide citations to relevant material and conduct disagreements with respect and a presumption of sincerity. I used to do that too!

Now, it seems, I am too often drawn into "debates" that consist entirely of well-worn and canned position statements that are presented with no intent of persuasion, without consideration or even understanding; When a well-developed rationale is responded to with a "dismissed" or less-polite versions of "Jane, you ignorant slut!"; "Labels" are de rigueur in lieu of specifics or actual responses, with the expectation that the recipient, not being one of "us", is assumed to be one of "them" and not deserving of consideration. Worse, I am prompted to respond in kind!

At one point we were more inclined to think about politics with a bit less personal identification than we do now; there's a lot of tribalism in it now that creates a lot of what you're describing. There is no room for debate to persuade if the intent of each person is to just defend their position with no attempt at considering the other argument.

My question is: am I alone in this feeling?

No.

Is my desire for debate with substance and respect just a quaint notion from a bygone era?

It's still around, but harder to come by.

Is self-deprecation or even self-consciousness passe?

It does seem to be a rare thing in politics now, because it's devolved to the level of sports team fervor, and as such people are in a more defensive mind state (defend the team) to have room for those to things.

Is nuance dead?

Dead? No, but it's in hospice care.

Is it possible, in this day and age, to carry on a reasoned debate with an honest and respectful opponent, or is this just wishful thinking?

It is. You just have to look for the people to whom political ideology isn't something they define themselves by.

 

[HikerGuy83]

@Serenity just slammed the door on a thread where someone was asking about why people can't debate.

After reading several of the posts (which i reported), went to the bottom to say something about the rules.

To find it closed.

Because....people were doing what they usually do.

And I give Serenity props !!!

 

[HikerGuy83]

Scrolling through threads...it's amazing.

Even the topics of conversation as presented in the titles are so incendiary that it's no wonder nobody is debating.

They are just throwing molotov cocktails at each other.

 

[NWRatCon]

Scrolling through threads...it's amazing.

Even the topics of conversation as presented in the titles are so incendiary that it's no wonder nobody is debating.

Many days it is like scrolling through the movie offerings on HBO or Netflix. Lots of movies, nothing worth watching.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Many days it is like scrolling through the movie offerings on HBO or Netflix. Lots of movies, nothing worth watching.

Great analogy.

Walking through a health food store comes to mind too.

 

[HikerGuy83]

It's amazing just how ridiculous things have gotten in the primary forum of this board.

 

[eohrnberger]

It's amazing just how ridiculous things have gotten in the primary forum of this board.

Self-reinforcing circle jerks without any individual or critical thought appears to be far more popular.
Also seems far more a common trait of the left leaning forum members, who by and large represent basement participants.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Self-reinforcing circle jerks without any individual or critical thought appears to be far more popular.
Also seems far more a common trait of the left leaning forum members, who by and large represent basement participants.

Can't agree with you on the left being the culprits. They have plenty of them, but the right does not represent itself very well.

 

[eohrnberger]

Can't agree with you on the left being the culprits. They have plenty of them, but the right does not represent itself very well.

May your perceptions remain yours.

From my view, I constantly see leftist 'circle jerk' thread being raised far more so than similar threads being raised from the right.
And frankly, it is quite tiresome, not only watching those thread being raised all the time, but TDS being needlessly injected on every other discussion thread.

You'd think that TDS was some sort of pandemic.

 

[poweRob]

May your perceptions remain yours.

From my view, I constantly see leftist 'circle jerk' thread being raised far more so than similar threads being raised from the right.
And frankly, it is quite tiresome, not only watching those thread being raised all the time, but TDS being needlessly injected on every other discussion thread.

You'd think that TDS was some sort of pandemic.

TDS on display...

 

[HikerGuy83]

May your perceptions remain yours.

From my view, I constantly see leftist 'circle jerk' thread being raised far more so than similar threads being raised from the right.
And frankly, it is quite tiresome, not only watching those thread being raised all the time, but TDS being needlessly injected on every other discussion thread.

You'd think that TDS was some sort of pandemic.

Of course they are mine.

But I expect lefties to be idiots.

I expect better of the right. And they (with Trump leading the way) have failed.

 

[eohrnberger]

Of course they are mine.

But I expect lefties to be idiots.

I expect better of the right. And they (with Trump leading the way) have failed.

Meh. I think that 'Trump leading the way' is an overstatement, at least in my view.
I've already posted that I hope he doesn't run in 2024.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Meh. I think that 'Trump leading the way' is an overstatement, at least in my view.
I've already posted that I hope he doesn't run in 2024.

May your perceptions remain yours.

 

[ASHES]

[...] I actually remember when one would use logic to build an argument, provide citations to relevant material and conduct disagreements with respect and a presumption of sincerity. I used to do that too! [...]

I have to say, it felt like a very different type of debate we had regarding the bridge than I usually have around here, and in this instance I don't even mind being proven wrong. We both had what we thought were logically reasoned, sincere positions, disagreed respectfully, and put in the work towards a common goal, finding the truth. In the end in this case, you were right, but I regret nothing. Enjoyable experience all around.

 

[gbg3]

I love it in the rare instances where a whole continuous series of comments are simply exchanges of opinions and information and include posters with opposing views. It usually doesn't last long before a poster outside that conversational group decides to enter with snark, a personal attack, or another disruption. But, even if it just goes on for 10-20 comments before the disruption enters, it's great and reminds us of why we once loved political forums.

 

[NWRatCon]

I have to say, it felt like a very different type of debate we had regarding the bridge than I usually have around here, and in this instance I don't even mind being proven wrong. We both had what we thought were logically reasoned, sincere positions, disagreed respectfully, and put in the work towards a common goal, finding the truth. In the end in this case, you were right, but I regret nothing. Enjoyable experience all around.

I could not possibly agree more.

Even people I sometimes disagree with vehemently have the capacity to argue rationally if given the chance. (I rarely disagree with you.) I will usually give them many opportunities, but some people, who start with vitriol and facile arguments, get ignored immediately. Life is simply too short to sort through the muck for the pearls. I wish every thread could be as substantive and respectful as that one.

 

[Evilroddy]

An encouraging debate/discussion related to this topic is happening in another thread. While the new thread is couched in an anti-Trump context, the ideas of respect and positive debate are well represented. It might be worth a read and a comment by interested posters.

The Best Way To Reject Trumpism Is To Be Respectful

Now that Trump proposes to be our leader again, we need to look at his record of leadership. What is clear is a man who does not respect others. Leaders lead by example, and the example set by Trump has been terrible. The traits that Trump has displayed have been picked up by others. Bad...

debatepolitics.com

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[blue scorpion]

I have been a participant in political discussion boards for decades. Remember the election of 2000 and the controversy surrounding the Supreme Court's intervention? How quaint those times seem. Remember when the sexual habits of a President seemed significant? Good times. Over the years, and perhaps it was the particular forums I participated in, I have watched as the "debating habits" of participants have degraded. Yes, "burns" and "put-downs" have always been a theme in debates, but they used to be done with far greater panache and erudition. The sharpest knives go in without being felt immediately. Facts used to matter. Wow, that takes me back! I actually remember when one would use logic to build an argument, provide citations to relevant material and conduct disagreements with respect and a presumption of sincerity. I used to do that too!

Now, it seems, I am too often drawn into "debates" that consist entirely of well-worn and canned position statements that are presented with no intent of persuasion, without consideration or even understanding; When a well-developed rationale is responded to with a "dismissed" or less-polite versions of "Jane, you ignorant slut!"; "Labels" are de rigueur in lieu of specifics or actual responses, with the expectation that the recipient, not being one of "us", is assumed to be one of "them" and not deserving of consideration. Worse, I am prompted to respond in kind!

My question is: am I alone in this feeling? Is my desire for debate with substance and respect just a quaint notion from a bygone era? Is self-deprecation or even self-consciousness passe? Is nuance dead? Is it possible, in this day and age, to carry on a reasoned debate with an honest and respectful opponent, or is this just wishful thinking?

Yea, such debated, discussions are so much more satisfying and enlightening than just calling out the stupid crap some asshole posts, even when such simplistic approach is right on the mark.