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Death Toll Rises for Military Reservists

scottyz

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WASHINGTON - The National Guard and Reserves are suffering a strikingly higher share of U.S. casualties in
Iraq, their portion of total American military deaths nearly doubling since last year.

Reservists have accounted for one-quarter of all U.S. deaths since the Iraq war began, but the proportion has grown over time. It was 10 percent for the five weeks it took to topple Baghdad in the spring of 2003, and 20 percent for 2004 as a whole.

The trend accelerated this year. For the first nine months of 2005 reservists accounted for 36 percent of U.S. deaths, and for August and September it was 56 percent, according to
Pentagon figures.

The Army National Guard, Army Reserve and Marine Corps Reserve accounted for more than half of all U.S. deaths in August and in September — the first time that has happened in consecutive months. The only other month in which it even approached 50 percent was June 2004.
National Guard officials say their soldiers have been sent into combat in Iraq in numbers not previously seen in modern times — far more than were sent to Vietnam, where active-duty troops did the vast majority of the fighting.

Charles Krohn, a former Army deputy chief of public affairs, said the reservists are taking up the slack for the highly stressed active-duty Army.

"Decisions made years earlier made going to war in any significant way impossible without Guard and Reserve participation. But I can't imagine anyone postulated the situation we face today: We don't seem very anxious to bring back the draft and we can't get enough volunteers for a war that is not universally popular," Krohn said.

Forty-five percent of all Guard and Reserve deaths since the start of the war — 220 of the 487 total — occurred in the first nine months of 2005, according to Pentagon figures. The deadliest month was August, when 49 Guard and Reserve members died.
Gone are the days when the National Guard and Reserve served mainly as "rear-area" support, far from the front-line fighting.

In Iraq the front line is everywhere — on rural roads where Guard and Reserve soldiers drive supply trucks, at urban checkpoints, in remote villages and at major supply bases. Some units also have been attached to active-duty units with the specific mission of conducting offensive operations.
At present, of the approximately 152,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about half are reservists: 49,000 Army National Guard, 22,000 Army Reserve and 4,000 Marine Reserve, according to figures provided by those organizations.
At least 300 soldiers of the National Guard, 78 of the Army Reserve and 93 of the Marine Corps Reserve, have died in the Iraq conflict. The Navy Reserve has lost 13, the Air Force Reserve three and the Air National Guard one. Together that is one-quarter of the total U.S death toll, which stood at 1,947 on Monday, by the Pentagon's count.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051010/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/iraq_reserves_toll
 

tryreading

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President Bush, a man true to his word, promised us before the election that there would be no draft. He kept his word. The National Guard under his watch should be called the International Guard. Sorry, I'm playing the blame game. We shouldn't do that when George Bush is wrong. Sorry again, he is never wrong.
 

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we blunder into ww3 while nintendo playing school boys giggle
 

SouthernDemocrat

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DeeJayH said:
Its war
people die
whats your point?
Well its good to see that it weighs on you.:roll:

That is not to say that I do not agree with what you are saying, but rather that its a tacky way of putting it.
 
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DeeJayH

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SouthernDemocrat said:
Well its good to see that it weighs on you.:roll:

That is not to say that I do not agree with what you are saying, but rather that its a tacky way of putting it.
thought maybe you had more of a point, that i missed, than what the media splashes on the tv everyday
 

Stinger

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And the point is what?
 

tryreading

Steve
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Stinger said:
And the point is what?
Interesting way to start this thread, scottyz only used information directly from a news story and didn't offer an opinion. Was he simply trying to point out that there has been a change in our customary military/guard relationship, and that's all?

Does he know someone in the Guard, or have experience there himself? Was he shocked by the numbers?

Or does he think the military is stretched too thin, the Guard is being misused, and we need to reinstate the draft? That isn't going to happen. Potential volunteers are being offered large incentives to join the services right now, and this will draw recruits who might not consider enlisting otherwise. This is fine with me-the government is spending money like never before, so lets give some of it to these fine young people.

I wonder if there is a statement here regarding President Bush, and his time in the Guard. During the Vietnam war, service in the National Guard was a good way to avoid seeing action. I resent the President for using the Guard as he is now, because it protected him in the past. Of course, as someone in this thread said, "Its war, people die..." Maybe the president sees it that way too.

I'm not saying Guardspeople or anyone else should be able to avoid action if called, but that there is no justice here.
 

scottyz

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DeeJayH said:
Its war
people die
whats your point?
I thought the war was over and we were now in the occupation stage? That's what some here claim.
 

tryreading

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scottyz said:
I thought the war was over and we were now in the occupation stage? That's what some here claim.
Whoever said the war is over is dead wrong. But there definitely is an occupation. Our guys, while doing the rest of their work, are very occupied with trying to keep their asses from being blown off. God help them.
 

Stinger

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tryreading said:
Interesting way to start this thread, scottyz only used information directly from a news story and didn't offer an opinion. Was he simply trying to point out that there has been a change in our customary military/guard relationship, and that's all?

Does he know someone in the Guard, or have experience there himself? Was he shocked by the numbers?

Or does he think the military is stretched too thin, the Guard is being misused, and we need to reinstate the draft?
As you point out, he doesn't say and he doesn't seem to realize that Guard and Reserve units serve in every war.

That isn't going to happen. Potential volunteers are being offered large incentives to join the services right now, and this will draw recruits who might not consider enlisting otherwise. This is fine with me-the government is spending money like never before, so lets give some of it to these fine young people.
Some just believe it is the right thing to do, you know do thier duty to make sure the rest of us are safe. Like my two Marine sons. It wasn't the money.

I wonder if there is a statement here regarding President Bush, and his time in the Guard. During the Vietnam war, service in the National Guard was a good way to avoid seeing action.
Actually it wasn't many Guard units served in Vietnam. If you wanted to avoid combat you joined the Navy or the Air Force.
I resent the President for using the Guard as he is now, because it protected him in the past.
His TANG unit was serving in Vietnam when he joined and he volunteered to go over there but the war was winding down by the time he completed training and we had more pilots than we needed over there, pilots with combat experience. But then flying supersonic all weather interceptors is risky enough, thanks a LOT of guts to just do that.

Of course, as someone in this thread said, "Its war, people die..." Maybe the president sees it that way too.
I seriously doubt it.

I'm not saying Guardspeople or anyone else should be able to avoid action if called, but that there is no justice here.
They never have before and they have served with honor.
 

Stinger

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scottyz said:
I thought the war was over and we were now in the occupation stage? That's what some here claim.
who???????
 

scottyz

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Stinger said:
His TANG unit was serving in Vietnam when he joined and he volunteered to go over there but the war was winding down by the time he completed training and we had more pilots than we needed over there, pilots with combat experience. But then flying supersonic all weather interceptors is risky enough, thanks a LOT of guts to just do that.
Look at his TXANG docs and you will clearly see he requested NOT TO BE SENT TO NAM. His function was to be a first responder in the defense of America from an aerial assault.
 

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scottyz said:
Look at his TXANG docs and you will clearly see he requested NOT TO BE SENT TO NAM.
Nope he request to go where his unit was assigned but was turned down because by the time he would be trained his unit would be returned. What you are referring was covered in the extensive Washington Post article on the subject. It concerns a check box on the enlistment form that all enlisties fill out.

"Bush said in an interview that he did not recall checking the box. Two weeks later, his office provided a statement from a former, state-level Air Guard personnel officer, asserting that since Bush "was applying for a specific position with the 147th Fighter Group, it would have been inappropriate for him to have volunteered for an overseas assignment and he probably was so advised by the military personnel clerk assisting him in completing the form.""
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush072899.htm

His function was to be a first responder in the defense of America from an aerial assault.
Yes NG units are first responders but they also serve overseas. But whether here or overseas, flying supersonic all weather interceptors, especially the F-102 was a risky business and took guts to do. He stood a higher chance of death or injury doing that than just volunteering for the Army and Vietnam.
 

tryreading

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Stinger said:
As you point out, he doesn't say and he doesn't seem to realize that Guard and Reserve units serve in every war.



Some just believe it is the right thing to do, you know do thier duty to make sure the rest of us are safe. Like my two Marine sons. It wasn't the money.



Actually it wasn't many Guard units served in Vietnam. If you wanted to avoid combat you joined the Navy or the Air Force.


His TANG unit was serving in Vietnam when he joined and he volunteered to go over there but the war was winding down by the time he completed training and we had more pilots than we needed over there, pilots with combat experience. But then flying supersonic all weather interceptors is risky enough, thanks a LOT of guts to just do that.



I seriously doubt it.



They never have before and they have served with honor.

I think you misunderstood some of the things I was trying to say, or maybe I didn't express myself very well. First, all of my respect to your sons, and everyone in the military and National Guard whether they see action or not.

Second, most enlistees don't join for the incentives, of course, but my point is that since our government overspends and wastes so much money, an excellent use for some of it would be bonuses, VA Benefits, and tuitions for these young people.

Third, you are right about the war winding down when George Bush volunteered for Palace Alert. All of the F-102's had been called back already. He had to know that. He also had to know that he had nowhere near the number of flying hours needed to qualify to be sent anyway.

I would like to be able to respect George Bush as you seem to, but I don't. I think he means what he says and he is very loyal. I'm sure he wants what is best for the country. But I don't have any faith in him. I don't trust him to make good decisions. Why rebuild New Orleans in the same hole it just drowned in? He has promised this. There was talk from the White House recently about bombing villages inside Syria because there may be terrorists hiding there. I want the terrorists killed too. But lets be very careful about expanding the war and spreading our resources even thinner.

Regarding terrorists, lets do more about our borders with Mexico and Canada now, and expel the illegal aliens. Shouldn't this be a priority?

http://www.factcheck.org/article140.html
 

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tryreading said:
I think you misunderstood some of the things I was trying to say, or maybe I didn't express myself very well. First, all of my respect to your sons, and everyone in the military and National Guard whether they see action or not.
Noted

Second, most enlistees don't join for the incentives, of course, but my point is that since our government overspends and wastes so much money, an excellent use for some of it would be bonuses, VA Benefits, and tuitions for these young people.
And Bush has increased military pay.
Third, you are right about the war winding down when George Bush volunteered for Palace Alert. All of the F-102's had been called back already. He had to know that.
Well no they hadn't and no he wouldn't.

He also had to know that he had nowhere near the number of flying hours needed to qualify to be sent anyway.
From COL. WILLIAM CAMPENNI (retired)
U.S. Air Force/Air National Guard
Herndon, Va.5

George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th
Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air National Guard (ANG)
from 1970 to 1971. We had the same flight and squadron commanders
(Maj. William Harris and Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, both now deceased)..................

"The mission of the 147th Fighter Group and its subordinate 111th
FIS, Texas ANG, and the airplane it possessed, the F-102, was air
defense. It was focused on defending the continental United States
from Soviet nuclear bombers. The F-102 could not drop bombs and
would have been useless in Vietnam. A pilot program using ANG
volunteer pilots in F-102s (called Palace Alert) was scrapped
quickly after the airplane proved to be unsuitable to the war
effort. Ironically, Lt. Bush did inquire about this program but was
advised by an ANG supervisor (Maj. Maurice Udell, retired) that he
did not have the desired experience (500 hours) at the time and that
the program was winding down and not accepting more volunteers. "

I tend to believe the Colonel has more knowledge of what Lt. Bush knew or didn't now or did or didn't do. It is highly unfair of you to assign you assupmtions to him as fact. But the fact does remain he did a very dangerous and risky job in the service of his country, people tend to lose sight of that fact.

I would like to be able to respect George Bush as you seem to, but I don't. I think he means what he says and he is very loyal. I'm sure he wants what is best for the country. But I don't have any faith in him. I don't trust him to make good decisions.
Perhaps you just don't agree with his decisions?

Why rebuild New Orleans in the same hole it just drowned in? He has promised this.
Sure he said that, what was he suppose to say to those poor people at the time? But it's not his decission anyway that 's purely a state and local issue. Give him a break.

There was talk from the White House recently about bombing villages inside Syria because there may be terrorists hiding there. I want the terrorists killed too. But lets be very careful about expanding the war and spreading our resources even thinner.
Ever heard of rattling the sword?

Regarding terrorists, lets do more about our borders with Mexico and Canada now, and expel the illegal aliens. Shouldn't this be a priority?
Yes and a sore spot for the Bush administration.


 

tryreading

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Noted

Noted

And Bush has increased military pay.

Good. As you should be able to tell, I think our people should be well taken care of.

Well no they hadn't and no he wouldn't.

You proved my point about the F-102's being called back in the letter below:
(A pilot program using ANG volunteer pilots in F-102s (called Palace Alert) was scrapped quickly after the airplane proved to be unsuitable to the war
effort).

As far as George Bush not knowing, I will give you that. I have no proof.

From COL. WILLIAM CAMPENNI (retired)
U.S. Air Force/Air National Guard
Herndon, Va.5

George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th
Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air National Guard (ANG)
from 1970 to 1971. We had the same flight and squadron commanders
(Maj. William Harris and Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, both now deceased)..................

"The mission of the 147th Fighter Group and its subordinate 111th
FIS, Texas ANG, and the airplane it possessed, the F-102, was air
defense. It was focused on defending the continental United States
from Soviet nuclear bombers. The F-102 could not drop bombs and
would have been useless in Vietnam. A pilot program using ANG
volunteer pilots in F-102s (called Palace Alert) was scrapped
quickly after the airplane proved to be unsuitable to the war
effort. Ironically, Lt. Bush did inquire about this program but was
advised by an ANG supervisor (Maj. Maurice Udell, retired) that he
did not have the desired experience (500 hours) at the time and that
the program was winding down and not accepting more volunteers. "

I tend to believe the Colonel has more knowledge of what Lt. Bush knew or didn't now or did or didn't do. It is highly unfair of you to assign you assupmtions to him as fact. But the fact does remain he did a very dangerous and risky job in the service of his country, people tend to lose sight of that fact.

Perhaps you just don't agree with his decisions?


I don't agree with a lot of his decisions. I don't trust his judgement.

Sure he said that, what was he suppose to say to those poor people at the time? But it's not his decission anyway that 's purely a state and local issue. Give him a break.

There will be a lot of federal money involved, billions from FEMA to start with, and he has promised it. Yes, it would have been very hard to say other than what he said, but New Orleans is not only built on low ground, it is sinking more every year. Can't there be another solution? Maybe rebuild a little further inland?

Ever heard of rattling the sword?

Yes, but we are doing that in Afghanistan and Iraq, aren't we?

Yes and a sore spot for the Bush administration.

On the news today, Michael Chertoff said there will be no more 'catch and release.' I hope he and the administration stand by this. Obviously you too think it is vital to the safety of our country. By the way, I didn't realize you had responded to my post, or I would have written sooner.
 
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